and the way the Quran shows the prophets is also quite contradictory to the bible as well. 

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This is the part I didn't quite understand. Could you elaborate on that please?

 

Btw, do I see some kind of feud going on here? I think a group hug is in order.

and the way the Quran shows the prophets is also quite contradictory to the bible as well. 

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This is the part I didn't quite understand. Could you elaborate on that please?

 

Btw, do I see some kind of feud going on here? I think a group hug is in order.

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Mira al alto. (look at the above)

 

 

A hug would sure help this thread a lot, come to think of it.

Edited November 19, 200520 yr by Mothman

Mary Magdalene :ph34r:

Mira al alto. (look at the above) 

Actually I did. How are different names or birthplaces related to a contradiction in the nature of the prophets though? Christ is called Yiesu instead of Yeshua in Chinese. It really doesn't mean much.

Edited November 19, 200520 yr by julianw

Mira al alto. (look at the above) 

Actually I did. How are different names or birthplaces related to a contradiction in the nature of the prophets though? Christ is called Yiesu instead of Yeshua in Chinese. It really doesn't mean much.

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Well no, because it is a basically different pronunciation of the same name. In Greek, Jesus would be called Iesus (Yay-sus), but it's still the same name, just pronounced differently. However, to give a person an entirely new name altogether shows a misconception, don't you think? And what I posted dealt with more than just names.

 

But as for my first post, perhaps I should phrase that better: the Quran does not portray the biblical prophets and characters as they are in the Bible. The Quran doesn't just misname them, it messes up time periods, places, who did what, etc. For instance, the example I gave above of a Haman actually living in Persia rather than Egypt as the Quran claimed. Another example I didn't mention: in the Bible, it tells of how soldiers drank water from a stream as a test to see who would go with Gideon (Judges 1:1-. In the Quran, it states that it took place many years later in the days of David and Goliath. (Sura 2: 249-250)

Edited November 19, 200520 yr by Mothman

*sigh*  I don't know what you hoped to prove or why you seem to have nothing better to do than to berate, insult, and argue with someone half your age, but I guess I'll just have to demolish yet another one of your feeble attempts at trying to prove me wrong.  You didn't even attempt to back up your statement, you just threw out a random insult and a link, in typical meta fashion.    Actually, it was more of a pathetic attempt at insults, attention, and sounding intelligent than anything else. 

 

Perhaps if you weren't so thick-headed metaflamer, you'd have seen I even stated my take on the Quran's phonetic appeal was opinion.  As for my part on the Quran garbling biblical stories and characters, it's not "confirmation bias" (something you seem to have a problem with yourself), it's truth.  It makes mistakes both concerning the Bible and secular history.  Muhammad didn't really have access to the Bible, so naturally he would get a lot of things wrong.  Do you want examples?  I'll give them to you, if that's what you desire.  *ahem* 

 

For Biblical errors:

> snip a lot of trees from the forest of seemingly impenetrable obtuseness <

Oh, and there are others, believe me, and I'll post them if you want more. 

 

As for secular errors:

>snip more futile attempts at diversion<

Oh, but you aren't one for details, are you? 

 

Is that enough, or shall I go on?  Honestly, you might want to try getting out more if you have nothing better to do than to constantly try to prove you're better than someone half your age.  Does that make you feel big, or something?  Do you take children's lunch money away from them too?  I don't know why you insist on being rude and arrogant, but I guess it's to be expected from you.    But please, keep arguing, and throw out your usual round of insults, contradictions, and name-calling.  It always makes me laugh to see an adult behaving like a little child.   

 

HAHAHA!  Amuse me again!!!

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[*]I gave you the benefit of the link to show you why you are failing to "study" anything, rather just falling victim to the aforementioned confirmation bias.

[*]I didn't acutally insult you, although you seem pretty thin-skinned ... what's the matter, did I hit a nerve?

[*]I was not simply referring to your banal aseessment of the Qur’an, but your past comment about "studying widely"; from what I've seen of your studiousness you may as well rote learn any holy scripture for the quality of exegeses you have displayed.

[*]My other main point for making a comment in this thread was to take you to task on your comment about how

"Muhammad just took bits and peices from Christianity and Judaism, threw it together, and combined it with his beliefs to make a new religion."

• Firstly this is an incredibly arrogant statement (I can only imagine what fundamentalist nuts — not looking at anyone in particular — would say if someone were to level such a criticism at the Bible).
   
  
• Secondly, it seems you are either ignorant or purposely ignoring the early Christian biblical editing history.
  

[*]Finally, if you are retreating behind the "you're a bully for attacking me because I'm only young" in some sort of attempted reverse-psychological argumentum ad hominem tactic; you seem to have overlooked two facts:

• I still haven't attacked you personally, merely tried to point out flaws in your statements.
   
  
• You, on the other hand, have (again!) resorted to personal attacks. If I were bothered by the gnat-like nature of your debating skills I might consider reporting you, however, you are just sadly amusing. 
   
  
• You are actually saying "don't attack me, because I can't defend my opinions against your more mature grasp of logic and debating skills".
  

So, does that help you understand:

1. what my point was, and
    
   
2. how to use logic to analyze argument?
   

I hope you are beginning to learn, young one, and the first lesson is respect your elders. And especially your betters.

 

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Typical. :D I saw this kind of response coming a mile away.

 

1. You have yet to back up any of your statements at all. I've posted several things to back up my opinions, you have yet to do anything. You also so carefully snipped them out of my post and dismissed them as "trees in a forest of obtuseness". How clever. I guess ignorance is a two-way street, huh?

 

2. No, you didn't really hit a nerve, I just took the opportunity to expose your ignorance. :D Perhaps I was too defensive in that respect, but as for personal attacks, you have most definitely done so in the past, and are doing so now. Nevertheless, I just don't take foolish/arrogant statements like that lightly, especially when I've put up with them from the same person over and over.

 

3. see response #1.

 

4. I stand by what I said. I've backed it up, and I can easily do it more if you so desire. You, in your typical fashion, just ignore it and/or dismiss it.

 

5. Lame. I've defended myself. You've just retreated behind your usual semblance of maturity and wit while in reality being totally arrogant, dismissive, and ignorant. Who has the gnat-like debating skills? From what it seems, your knowledge in the area seems to be lacking. But yeah, you would resort to reporting, cause you can't win. Keep trying, metaflamer. You have yet to actually prove me wrong on anything. You haven't even given reasons why you think I might be wrong. But I do find your pompous attitude highly amusing, though.

 

I will respect my elders, or course - provided they don't give me a reason not to.

Edited November 19, 200520 yr by Mothman

lame attempt at personal insult (again sur-PRISE!) rather than to address the issues mentioned.

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*can't win an argument due to own shortcomings, and goes to bed*

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Edited November 19, 200520 yr by Mothman

*sigh*  I don't know what you hoped to prove or why you seem to have nothing better to do than to berate, insult, and argue with someone half your age, but I guess I'll just have to demolish yet another one of your feeble attempts at trying to prove me wrong.  You didn't even attempt to back up your statement, you just threw out a random insult and a link, in typical meta fashion.    Actually, it was more of a pathetic attempt at insults, attention, and sounding intelligent than anything else. 

 

Um, yeah, sure. Didn't see any of the aformentioned behaviour in Mets post, but whatever.

 

Perhaps if you weren't so thick-headed metaflamer, you'd have seen I even stated my take on the Quran's phonetic appeal was opinion.  As for my part on the Quran garbling biblical stories and characters, it's not "confirmation bias" (something you seem to have a problem with yourself), it's truth.  It makes mistakes both concerning the Bible and secular history.  Muhammad didn't really have access to the Bible, so naturally he would get a lot of things wrong.  Do you want examples?  I'll give them to you, if that's what you desire.  *ahem* 

 

Did you just resort to calling him names?!! This means you've already lost the debate. What is this, friggin' kindergarten.

 

For Biblical errors:

 

I'm gonna take these point by point m'kay?

 

1.  The Quran states Abraham's father was Azar, but in the bible it was Terah.  (Sura 6:74)

 

And my given name is Jaime Tomas Griffith in Spanish, your fuggin' point?

 

2.  It was his son Isaac that he was told to sacrifice, not Ishmael.  (Sura 37:100-112)

 

By asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, he was asking him to sacrifice the most important thing in the world to him, his favorite son. Do you really think that people of Islamic faith, whose progenitor is Ishamael, are not going to include him in that story instead of Isaac? Honestly, do you actually know it didn't happen that way? Only God, Ishmael/Isaac, Abraham, and possibly Sarah know what happened on that mountain, I don't claim to speak for any of them.

 

Continued in the next post because of too many quote tags.

3.  The Quran refers to some characters by different names, for example: Goliath became Jalut, Saul became Talut, Jonah became Yunus, etc. 

 

 

4.  It was Pharoah's daughter whom the Bible says adopted Moses, not his wife as the Quran claims.  (28:8,9)

 

I'm sitting on the fence with this one.

 

5.  Crucifixion was not used in the time of the Pharoah, as the Quran claims in Sura 7:124. 

 

There have been death sentences similar, if not identical to crucifixion throughout the ages.

 

6.  Mary did not give birth to Jesus under a Palm tree, but a stable (according to the Bible)  Sura 19:22

 

I give you this one. Though I suppose there might have been a pottet palm in the stable, if they were using it for a nursery as well.

 

7.  Muhammad confused Jesus's mother Mary with the Mary who was the sister of Moses and Aaron in Sura: 19:28. 

 

This one I don't know, I haven't read the Quran, so I'll give it to you.

 

Oh, and there are others, believe me, and I'll post them if you want more. 

 

As for secular errors:

1.  Sura 105 - it claims Abrah's elephant army was defeated by birds dropping stones of baked clay on them, when historical evidence indicates it was smallpox breakout that caused them to retreat. 

 

Again, I'll give you this one.

 

2.  Muhammad claimed the Kabah was built by Abraham, when evidence indicates it was built by pagans to worship a black rock that fell from the sky. 

 

I seem to remember info about this being a Jewish religious site before it was taken by Muslims, so I think it may be possible that this is true, albeit in a roundabout way, but it's been awhile.

 

3.  Sura 20:87,95 says the Jews made the golden calf in the wilderness at the suggestion of the Samaritan.  Funny, considering Samaria did not exist in that time period. 

 

You're really stretching yourself here, a Samaritan is a Jewish/Gentile halfbreed, disliked by both camps at the time, I am sure there were Samaritans before the nation of Samaria existed if humans were near the horny things they are today.

 

Oh, but you aren't one for details, are you? 

 

Is that enough, or shall I go on?  Honestly, you might want to try getting out more if you have nothing better to do than to constantly try to prove you're better than someone half your age.  Does that make you feel big, or something?  Do you take children's lunch money away from them too?  I don't know why you insist on being rude and arrogant, but I guess it's to be expected from you.    But please, keep arguing, and throw out your usual round of insults, contradictions, and name-calling.  It always makes me laugh to see an adult behaving like a little child.   

 

HAHAHA!  Amuse me again!!!

 

 

You started it. What was it you called it, your Paladin rage or somesuch? <_<

 

Also, you've been reported for flaming Meta without provocation.

*can't be bothered to stoop to the level of argumentum ad hominem, and due to Mothman's shortcomings, tries again to assist*

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Just to be clear, I'm not particularly interested in your comparison of the "historical facts" as written in two holy scriptures, more the appallingly poor taste it shows and the ineffable hypocrisy engendered in dismissing someone else's sacrosanct holy scripture as a poor copy of yours.

 

Are we understanding yet, or do you need to insult me a bit more ?

People flaming eachother?

 

Who would have guessed.

 

On the internet no less.

 

What's the world coming to?!!

Edited November 19, 200520 yr by Child of Flame

Hmm,perhaps I shouldn't have deleted that post.

 

Oh my,you have my eternal gratitude .

Edited November 19, 200520 yr by Baley

It's okay, I've got you covered, just a second!

You started it.    What was it you called it, your Paladin rage or somesuch?  <_<

 

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Paladin frenzy.

 

Although looking back, I definitely was too hostile in my remarks, and apologize to meta for that. I do still stand by my opinion on the whole Bible vs Quran thing, though. The thing that got me riled was that he essentially attempted to debunk my posts without even attempting to explain why or backing himself up. That, and all this religious debate recently has really gotten to me. That, and I also wasn't even in a good mood to begin with today, but I really shouldn't take it out on others. :"> I do offer meta my sincere apologies for the insults.

 

Hmm...my first report. I guess I should be honored. :D

Edited November 19, 200520 yr by Mothman

You know,this entire discussion is off topic.

 

If my original discussion on the subject of *needlework* was dealt with,why was this permitted to thrive?

 

Perhaps our beloved moderators should split this topic.

Just to be clear, I'm not particularly interested in your comparison of the "historical facts" as written in two holy scriptures, more the appallingly poor taste it shows and the ineffable hypocrisy engendered in dismissing someone else's sacrosanct holy scripture as a poor copy of yours.

 

Are we understanding yet, or do you need to insult me a bit more ?

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My opinion still stands.

 

But I do sincerely apologize for my response, as I was being way too hostile, insulting, and yes, immature.

Edited November 19, 200520 yr by Mothman

Well it seems a timeout is now in order. Some of the debate here was actually very informative - but the final resort to baiting and flaming really has undermined the potential this thread had. AotS - thanks for playing.