Deus Ex

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I am all for games adding more and varied genres into their creations: after all, one of the rationales for doing so must be to try to entice people from those genres, so it is only sensible that the resultant game is a hybrid of it and others.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No disagreement there, I also enjoy games that promote varied gameplay styles. However, I assume that both my last PM's to you before I took off last month and my posts in this thread indicate my disagreement with the deficiencies of genre labelling itself, not necessarily with the games.

 

 

Ah, but the fact that the reticle exists means that the game is a hybrid of a shooter, since there isn't much use for graticules on a m

Edited November 11, 2005 by Role-Player

[~Di]

I really loved Deus Ex... top-notch game. The sequel was a good game, not a great game, but probably seemed less "good" than it actually was because of the natural comparison to its utterly outstanding predecessor. Most Deus Ex fans that I know were disappointed by the sequel in some manner or another. I personally don't think it was a bad game, but it really didn't live up to the quality of the original.

 

As to the is-it or is-it-not an RPG argument, I consider both Deus Ex and Deus Ex:IW to be FPS with RPG elements. Yes, hybrids to be sure, but very heavy on the FPS and very light on the RPG, in my opinion.

[Hell Kitty]

You just wrecked your own theorie with the bolded part... sorry

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No I didn't. I've never claimed that DX has no shooter elements, my problem is that FPS/RPG is an unsatisfactory genre classification as it ignores certain elements in favour of others. Warren Spector calls his own game an Immersive Sim/RPG/FPS/Adventure, but apparently Battlewookie vision shows only the RPG/FPS parts.

 

As for the reticule, if a first person RPG allows me to target specific body parts, then a reticule would be pretty handy.

 

@ Di: OMG! *sloppy kisses*

[alanschu]

But earlier you were saying that it was really in no way an FPS.

[Darque]

True that.

[Diamond]

...... zing?

 

 

 

Anyway, what is the point of arguing the subtleries of game genres which will soon evolve and break current classification?

[Darque]

That's what I wanna know.

 

Arguing about something is pointless anyway.

 

Debating is fun, discussing is fun, arguing... not fun.

[Fionavar]

The point of pointless arguing is to wake me up and get me off of the Roost?

 

/subtle warning ...

[Hell Kitty]

But earlier you were saying that it was really in no way an FPS.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I say lots of things, they can't all be trusted.

 

Anyway, what I first said was "Deus Ex is not an FPS/RPG hybrid, it's an action/adventure with RPG elements" after that it all got confusing.

 

As for discussion/debate/argument, it's all the same damn thing.

 

Soon evolve? No.

[Darque]

As for discussion/debate/argument, it's all the same damn thing.

 

No, some are about exchanging ideas, some are about comparing viewpoints and some are combative forms of communication.

 

Definately not the same thing.

[Diamond]

Soon evolve? No.

 

Compelling.

 

Look at games 1 year ago.

3 years ago.

10 years ago.

...

Now tell me they are the same. "

 

 

EDIT:

On topic. There is no single authority or "standards body" that makes precise point-by-point definition of what a certain genre compised of. Sorry, but you continue to argue for the sake of it.

Edited November 11, 2005 by Diamond

[Musopticon?]

Masup? wheres that old song you found with the orchestra doing the Theme?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please, just Mus?.

 

And it's here:

 

http://jadiepoo.com/././stuff/

[Hell Kitty]

Look at games 1 year ago.

3 years ago.

10 years ago.

...

Now tell me they are the same. "

 

Games today have better graphics and sound. Okay, so it's not quite that basic, but gameplay hasn't really chnaged that much over time. Most changes are small and come in dribs and drabs and I don't believe that "genres which will soon evolve and break current classification" any more than I believe we will soon by cruising around in hover cars. It's odd to claim that games nowadays are evolving when so many people complain about "dumbing down".

 

There is no single authority or "standards body" that makes precise point-by-point definition of what a certain genre compised of.

 

Of course not. I don't think my classification is the only true classification, but there are some classifications that suit a game and there are some that don't really fit.

 

I think ShadowPaladin's Action/RPG label fits much better than FPS/RPG, as the adventure elements can be placed in with the RPG (being that adventure elements are common in RPGs) and the Action label is broad enough to fit the shooter and stealth elements, whereas the Shooter label is much too narrow and doesn't give enough credit to other action elements.

 

Sorry, but you continue to argue for the sake of it.

 

Arguing against popular (in this thread) opinion doesn't mean I'm arguing just for the sake of it. I would never claim to be the most articulate fellow, and I'm more than happy to change my mind on anything if someone is able to convince me that their argument is right, but however poorly I might be getting my view across, I think it's pretty damn insulting to be accused of arguing for the sake of it when others in this thread spam off-topic nonsense and refuse to further debate their views.

[Diamond]

Games today have better graphics and sound. Okay, so it's not quite that basic, but gameplay hasn't really chnaged that much over time. Most changes are small and come in dribs and drabs and I don't believe that "genres which will soon evolve and break current classification" any more than I believe we will soon by cruising around in hover cars. It's odd to claim that games nowadays are evolving when so many people complain about "dumbing down".

Not exactly. Comapre old games with today games. Not only graphics, but all aspects of games are gaining more detail, features (this article will explain better than me), and more sophisticated toolsets (NWN), also genres are being combined (GTA).

 

To really see the difference in changes to gameplay, pick up an early 1990's game and play it (I was shocked when replaying BG2 and Transport Tycoon).

 

EDIT: As for dumbing down, it is old hardcore gamers that are compaining. Games are popularized and need a bigger market, hence the "adapting".

 

 

Of course not. I don't think my classification is the only true classification, but there are some classifications that suit a game and there are some that don't really fit.

As I read through the thread, I can see that the argument is more about definitions of certain genres, because everyone seem to have a different vision of it. I, for one, can argue that Deus Ex belongs to FPS to certain extent, but I put more emphasis in "first person", rather than "shooter"

You seem to have a more "strict" classification.

 

And sorry, if you found any part of my post offending.

Edited November 11, 2005 by Diamond

[Hell Kitty]

Not only graphics, but all aspects of games are gaining more detail

 

I agree with that, though not to the extent that genres will soon break current classifications. I think there will probablky be more merging of different genres, but there will always be games that will fit into current single genre classifications, even if computer games reach the point of some kind of Star Trek holodeck deal.

 

genres are being combined (GTA).

 

The GTA series' use of driving as more than racing and on-foot exploration and combat isn't really anything new. GTA is typically referred to as an action game.

 

One of my all time favourite games, Midwinter 2 (from 1991) features a combination of first-person on-foot and vehicular action with adventure and strategy. Mind you, as much as I loved it back then, and as much as it might have been rare in it's genre merging for it's time, it's way too simplistic for me to get much enjoyment out of today.

 

As for dumbing down, it is old hardcore gamers that are compaining.

 

Heh, I've always been of the view that games are getting more complex (though perhaps not as much as you), and it always amuses me when people talk about the "good old days" of gaming. Rose coloured glasses and all that.

 

I put more emphasis in "first person", rather than "shooter"

 

That's pretty much what I consider to be the problem, as a game should be classified by it's gameplay, not the view that it's played from.

Edited November 11, 2005 by Hell Kitty

[Musopticon?]

So how do you people say "deus ex"? The fans are pretty uniform that it's said like 'do sex'.

[~Di]

@ Di: OMG! *sloppy kisses*

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

HK!!! *sloppy kisses right back atcha!*

 

Okay, I see we are being precise in our definitions, lol... I hadn't bothered to read the entire thread. Obviously.

 

I agree that Deus Ex was much more than a typical FPS. Action? Yep. Stealth? Yep. RPG elements? Yep. I've decided that Deus Ex was its own genre, which I shall refer to from this day forward as FPASRPGS... First Person Action Shooter with a drib of RPG and a dab of Stealth!

 

 

Or DX for short!

[Arkan]

So how do you people say "deus ex"? The fans are pretty uniform that it's said like 'do sex'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I believe it's "day-us-eks"

[mkreku]

Heh, I've always been of the view that games are getting more complex (though perhaps not as much as you), and it always amuses me when people talk about the "good old days" of gaming. Rose coloured glasses and all that.

Well, if you can tear yourself away from your 'complex games' for a second, you might try installing some of these games of old. Wasteland, Bard's Tale, Ultima are all good examples, and then you compare them to some newer titles, like Jade Empire, the new Bard's Tale and so on. I'm sure you'll notice a slight change in complexity too. You won't even have to wear no glasses.

[Calax]

Masup? wheres that old song you found with the orchestra doing the Theme?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please, just Mus?.

 

And it's here:

 

http://jadiepoo.com/././stuff/

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you! I've been looking for that...

[metadigital]

So how do you people say "deus ex"? The fans are pretty uniform that it's said like 'do sex'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Day-OOS ex. That bits the easy bit, the next bit is what has even the post-doc scholars in perplexed disagreement:

mak-in-a

is how I'd say it.

 

Not sure about your "do", maybe "day" would be better, as in afternoon delight?

[Diamond]

Well, if you can tear yourself away from your 'complex games' for a second, you might try installing some of these games of old. Wasteland, Bard's Tale, Ultima are all good examples, and then you compare them to some newer titles, like Jade Empire, the new Bard's Tale and so on. I'm sure you'll notice a slight change in complexity too. You won't even have to wear no glasses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A good example of an old school gamer with nostalgia.

Actually games do get more complex.

 

Be open-minded.

[Hell Kitty]

Well, if you can tear yourself away from your 'complex games' for a second, you might try installing some of these games of old. Wasteland, Bard's Tale, Ultima are all good examples, and then you compare them to some newer titles, like Jade Empire, the new Bard's Tale and so on. I'm sure you'll notice a slight change in complexity too. You won't even have to wear no glasses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ignoring your stupid link, Diamond's link does a much better job in convincing me that games are getting more complex than your listing a handfull of game does to convince me that games are getting simpler. It's as ridiculous as holding up Pong as proof that all past games are simple. I think the RPG genre isn't really in good times now, but to argue that games today are simpelr you need to look at all genres. I mean, do you really think Wolfenstein is a more complex game that Half-Life?

 

I personally think the Ultima games are the height of RPG gaming, though I put that down to being well designed games, regardless of the complexity or simplicity of it's individual parts.

[alanschu]

I actually pronounce it "Days-Eks"

 

Flows of the tongue easier.

[Spider]

Wikipedia.org:

 

The Latin phrase would originally have been pronounced something like ['de.ʊs ex 'ma:kʰɪ.na:], in other words with machina stressed on the first syllable, and with the ch similar to an English k, but English-speaking people may be influenced by the modern English machine ([mə'ʃi:n]), resulting in a mixed pronunciation.