cbs poll on evolution vs. creationism

[Darque]

My reply on this debate is...

 

Evolution created the body and god created the soul... BAM! everyone wins.

 

Disclaimer: I'm not a christian in any flavor.

[Archmonarch]

...Jews just see him as another prophet.  Jewish people who know their history don't even have any ill will about him.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Partially correct. There is no official Jewish stance on Jesus, excluding the Messianic Judaism (Jews for Jesus) movement, other than that he was most definitely NOT a prophet, having failed to meet the tests listed in the Torah. Some believe he existed and some do not. Those who do often think he was a devout Jew born in Bethlehem, raised in Galilee, and killed in Jerusalem by the Romans for his nationalistic/religious commentary. In this view, following the lead of many modern historians, some Jews believe that Jesus was a preacher with an apocalyptic message, that Jesus never claimed to be God or part of a trinity, and that he was a liberal reformer, in many ways more similar to the Pharisees than to Jews of the other movements at the time. Christianity as we know it today had nothing to do with Jesus' actual teachings, but rather was the outgrowth of the beliefs of Jesus' later non-Jewish converts, and the preaching of Paul.

 

Most consider Jesus simply irrelevant, a non-important figure in a different religion (much as Muhammad might seem to many Christians), known due to their being immersed in a Christian-oriented society rather than through religious significance.

 

Jews also do not believe anyone can "die" as a "repentance" for anyone else, nor that God would have a "son", nor has the concept of "original sin" ever been part of Judaic belief or philosophy. As a religion, Judaism is far more focused on the practicalities of understanding how one may live a sacred life in this world according to God's will, rather than hope of spiritual salvation in a future one. Jews do not believe in the Christian concept of Hell, nor that only those following one specific faith can be "saved". Jews as a whole do not evangelise, and view their divine purpose as being ideally a "role model to the nations" and a "holy people" (ie, a people who live their lives fully in accordance with Divine will), rather than "the one path to God".

[Blank]

If absolute physical proof is what you require in order to believe in something such as Jesus' divinity (the He is God's son), then you will not find the proof. It's a matter of faith in this case.

 

In faith, I take the Holy Bible to be the infallible words of God (written by people inspired by God. 2 timothy 3:16). Would God allow His words to get corrupted? I doubt that. Therefore, the Holy Bible is what I base my beliefs in.

 

The basis of Christianity is in the Bible (or should be...): that Jesus is the Son of God, come to earth to die as a sacrifice for the sins of those who accept Him as their Saviour (romans 3:21-26 and 6:23 say this better than i do. then of course the well-known John 3:16 and then many other places in the Bible).

 

It's not so hard to understand that through evolution humans are created.

 

God (if you believe in one) ---> Nature ---> Evolution. Why would evolution go against religion at all? If evolution does anything to religions, it complements them by disproving the falsehoods within them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Evolution is in opposition to the Bible because in Genesis 1:26-31 one reads that God made man in one day. So according to scripture, man is put into existance in a day, not over many many many years of adaptation upon adaptation.

 

another poll:

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2005-...nterpiece_x.htm

 

this was very interesting, but hardly a surprise:

 

God created human beings in their present form exactly as described in the Bible

 

By income level

$75K and up: 37%

$50K-$74.9K: 51%

$30K-$49.9K: 56%

Under 20K: 70%

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The point of being a Christian is definitely not to make a lot of money. So yes, it is hardly a surprise that people who have a Christian (but not limited to Christian) belief about God (such as: God created human beings in their present form exactly as described in the Bible) would have lower incomes...

 

All in all, it

[Archmonarch]

<_<

 

I had thought evangelism and religious discrimination illegal here.

[julianw]

written by people inspired by God. 2 timothy 3:16

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess I will emphasize this point then. The Bible doesn't contain direct words from God or Jesus, the Son of God.

 

Yes, if you read the Bible literally and don't ponder the metaphors within the Holy Scripture, then evolution becomes unacceptable, so I won't even try to persuade you. But for a person like me who accepts that all religions are inspired by God, I could easily understand the concept that God created man through evolution.

[Blank]

was i being discriminatory? I apologize if i was.

 

and julianw, if you can show me which metaphors i have been taking literally, then i will surely change my position. If you can find biblical proof that all religions are inspired by God, then i will agree with you. But if its not in the Bible, i won't believe it. So far from what i have seen in the Bible, Jesus is the only way to be reconciled to God (John 14:6=Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.) and we do need to be reconciled (romans 6:23. and colossians 1:19-23= For it pleased the Father that in Him [Jesus] all the fullness should dwell, and by Him [Jesus] to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him [you get the idea], whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight

Edited November 4, 2005 by Blank

[Archmonarch]

Then all is good. I would suggest greater awareness of the fact that people in general do not appreciate being told they have to be "saved" from their lifestyle.

[Atreides]

James' ossuary has been proven by the Israeli's department of artifacts (?) as a fake.

 

Mothman raises an interesting point though - why the Romans didn't deny Jesus' existance even though it was in their interest to do so. And of course you had lots of people during that time suddenly believing - possibly because they interacted with Jesus (say saw His preaching in person etc).

[Blank]

Then all is good. I would suggest greater awareness of the fact that people in general do not appreciate being told they have to be "saved" from their lifestyle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yeah, sorry. i was just trying to explain my views, but i should be more considerate in the future. i don't want to be a luny on the side of the street yelling with a sign that says"YUR GOIN TO HELL!"... Although, i guess i need to respect him and his views too.

Edited November 4, 2005 by Blank

[julianw]

Blank - Have you wondered why the Jewish high priests, with years of religious studies under their belts, would not accept Christ as their lord when fishermen like Peter and Andrew would? As you said yourself, the key to religion is faith, it requires more than logic and physical evidence. The Bible is but words on paper (inspired by God so I don't sound disrespectful). I for one would not want to make the same mistake the Jewish priests made by denying Christ simply based on a few words from the OT they clung to.

[Atreides]

Of course the Bible's a book - that's the best they had to record stuff on at that time. At least it's in writing and not passed down from word-of-mouth.

 

I suppose later people in the future won't be satisfied with "mere" pictures since they can be manipulated (CG, photoshop etc) but it's commonly accepted because everyone from that time acknowledges that the event happened and of course in the information age info spreads easily.

 

Heck, you've got people saying the moon landing was fake and made in a studio somewhere so you'll always have problems convincing people.

[Blank]

Blank - Have you wondered why the Jewish high priests, with years of religious studies under their belts, would not accept Christ as their lord when fishermen like Peter and Andrew would? As you said yourself, the key to religion is faith, it requires more than logic and physical evidence. The Bible is but words on paper (inspired by God so I don't sound disrespectful). I for one would not want to make the same mistake the Jewish priests made by denying Christ simply based on a few words from the OT they clung to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point. the Judaism faith does not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. There is a cornucopia (haha thats a funny word) of points in the NT to support that He is the Messiah. They, obviously, don't believe the NT is the truth. The book of Matthew in the NT was addressed to the Jewish peoples at that time, so in reading Matthew you may see such phrases as,"So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying..."

Edited November 4, 2005 by Blank

[Blank]

Of course the Bible's a book - that's the best they had to record stuff on at that time.  At least it's in writing and not passed down from word-of-mouth.

 

I suppose later people in the future won't be satisfied with "mere" pictures since they can be manipulated (CG, photoshop etc) but it's commonly accepted because everyone from that time acknowledges that the event happened and of course in the information age info spreads easily.

 

Heck, you've got people saying the moon landing was fake and made in a studio somewhere so you'll always have problems convincing people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, its funny because there was recently that omnimax film about the lunar landings and it looked more realistic than the actual footage of the moon. lol

[Guest Cantousent]

Clearly, some folks need to be saved from their lifestyle. Whether or not they use religion to do so is another matter. That some folks are in need is a certainty. Who needs saving and who doesn't remains to be seen. *a smile*

 

Also, Blank, I meant no offense. I believe in evolution, but I think it's safe to say that I am not the authority on the subject in this threat, let alone the world at large. *a wry grin* The point is, I would hope that I am judged, if I am to be judged, on larger issues than my belief in evolution. If you are willing to extend that courtesy to me, I am willing to extend the same courtesy to you. In fact, I am willing to extend that courtesy to you even if my expectation of reciprocity is nothing more than a vain hope.

[julianw]

Good point. the Judaism faith does not believe that Jesus is the Messiah. There is a cornucopia (haha thats a funny word) of points in the NT to support that He is the Messiah. They, obviously, don't believe the NT is the truth. The book of Matthew in the NT was addressed to the Jewish peoples at that time, so in reading Matthew you may see such phrases as,"So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying..."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well then, Christ was denied because they saw that he had no physical army to conquer the injustices and evils in this world so that Christ then could not be the Messiah. They did not see that the words he brought were his army and while he could not conquer cities or fortresses, he conquered men's hearts and covered half of the Earth with his followers. So a friendly warning: do not follow the Jewish priests' example and make the same mistake of literally interpreting a religious scripture that is thousands of years old. And if you still believe that God's words will always remain absolutely true even when they were not even his direct words and that everything contained in the Holy Bible are the absolute truth that is beyond any doubt or further study, then let's just drop the discussion then.

[Oerwinde]

Evolution has more evidence to support it than Gravity. Yet fundamentalists have no problem with Gravity.

 

People need to understand that Evolution and Abiogenesis are different.

[Blank]

Also, Blank, I meant no offense.  I believe in evolution, but I think it's safe to say that I am not the authority on the subject in this threat, let alone the world at large.  *a wry grin*  The point is, I would hope that I am judged, if I am to be judged, on larger issues than my belief in evolution.  If you are willing to extend that courtesy to me, I am willing to extend the same courtesy to you.  In fact, I am willing to extend that courtesy to you even if my expectation of reciprocity is nothing more than a vain hope.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I will definitely extend that courtesy to you. I try not to judge (God does that for me, lol) because if i do judge others, it'll haunt me later (or so i believe. Luke 6:36-38= "Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.").

 

It doesn't matter to me as much pertaining to what one believes about creation. Your actions are what matter. and because i believe certain actions (sins) cause God (who I believe in) to punish the offender, then I care more about your opinion on God than simply the creation of the world. It's not as important.

 

For example, there are many denominations and sects of Christianity alone. I don't think God will say,"Well, you guys who weren't 1943 Reformed Conservative Methodist Christians are going to hell, because you disagreed with this denomination about minute things." I am probably wrong about particular technical things that i believe (such as,"baptism is not necessary to be saved" or "baptism is only authentic when one is submerged under water and brought up again"), but i don't have any doubt about Jesus (or so i believe).

 

So I am not telling you,"YOU ARE WRONG AND I AM RIGHT" because (its really hard to admit this) i don't know everything . I am definitely not judging you, but I am telling you what my faith is. You can agree with it, or leave it and believe what you think is true, that's your choice.

 

so i again extend the courtesy of not judging you, and especially not judging you about unimportant things (or what you and i agree to be not important enough to judge a person about).

[Blank]

And if you still believe that God's words will always remain absolutely true even when they were not even his direct words and that everything contained in the Holy Bible are the absolute truth that is beyond any doubt or further study, then let's just drop the discussion then.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

lol. yeah, I am going to stick with my belief that the Bible is infallible. But if somebody came up to me and had undeniable proof that some parts of it are not true, then i would have to agree with them.

 

And i don't incriminate studying the Bible's origin, i actually would encourage that. because i doubt that it will be proven to have been written by some crazy guy on drugs around 0 BC, and because i think more studying will help prove its truth even more, or if anything, purge it of its falsehoods. For example, there was a section of the NKJ version of the Bible where they later realised they had mistranslated, and so they rewrote it to be correct and that was that.

[random evil guy]

What secular, empirical proof is there?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Okay. Well, there's those mentioned in the Bible, but I guess you wouldn't call that secular. If you bother to take into consideration the sheer amount of people who recorded his existance mentioned in the Bible and histories (such as Eusebius), you could count that. Pontius Pilate definitely existed. Some of his Apostles are known to have actually existed. Unless you want to say it was a mass conspiracy of 12+ men who were so psychotic they were willing to die for their beliefs. Heck, Peter was crucified upside-down for it! Paul spent years and years in prison for it.

 

And think about this: if the man never existed and was not crucified, the people would have known this, especially the Roman government. To my knowledge, Romans never denied he existed, either, once Christianity started to spread. They were primarily concerned with stopping its spread. I doubt a man who never existed would cause that much controversy. In fact, one of the reasons for the Roman's persecution of Jesus and Christians was the fear that they would incite rebellion in Empire.

 

There's also the historical artifacts such the shroud of Turin. Also, don't forget the ancient Roman arrest warrant for a Jesus of Nazareth (in the latin, it goes something like "Yeshua de Nazarine", but I'm no Latin expert) There was also another artifact (can't remember exactly what it was) that was inscribed as belonging to Joseph, brother of Jesus.

 

There are others. I unfortunately can't recall/find the rest. But if I recall more and you wish to hear it, I'll try to post it. I'll try to post some links as well so people don't think I'm making this all up.

 

And mind you, I never said "proof", just "evidence", and that is what this is. A lot of people don't deny his existance. Most doubters just don't believe he was the Son of God.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

nonsense. there aren't any secular 'clear cut' proof that jesus ever existed. he is first mentioned by josephus, but that is, at least in parts, a forgery. other than that, he isn't mentioned until about a century later and that is too late.

 

there aren't any conclusive proof that jesus ever existed, but there aren't anything disproving it either. the question is very much unanswered...

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical...eally_live.html

[Surreptishus]

Aren't Christians supposed to take it on faith that Christ existed? As in they dont require proof.

 

We can surmise that somebody started a Messianic offshoot of Judaism whether his name was Jesus Christ and he had 12 disciples is irrelevant IMO its the messgae and teachings of christianity that chould be considered.

[random evil guy]

was i being discriminatory? I apologize if i was.

 

and julianw, if you can show me which metaphors i have been taking literally, then i will surely change my position. If you can find biblical proof that all religions are inspired by God, then i will agree with you. But if its not in the Bible, i won't believe it. So far from what i have seen in the Bible, Jesus is the only way to be reconciled to God (John 14:6=Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.) and we do need to be reconciled (romans 6:23. and colossians 1:19-23= For it pleased the Father that in Him [Jesus] all the fullness should dwell, and by Him [Jesus] to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him [you get the idea], whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

heard of the 'tyre prophecy'...? if you really take everything in the bible literally, the tyre prophecy is definately wrong..

 

http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/.../2/992tyre.html

[random evil guy]

thing is, i don't mind christians as long as they aren't fundamentalist nutjobs who take everything in the bible literally.

 

contradictions in the bible:

 

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim...radictions.html

[Surreptishus]

Ok, but is it necessary to prove to them that they are wrong? Especially when it is a futile exercise. If anything i would expect it to galvanise their beliefs as evidence against christianity would be seen as a threat to their way of life.

 

Everyone should be allowed to believe what they want without fear of being persecuted. With the caveat of religion not entering the political arena or any area where the interests of people with an eclectic background have to be served.

[random evil guy]

like i said; i have no problems with most christians as they don't interpret everything in the bible literally. i.e. most catholics believe evolution to be a fact and not contradictory to their beliefs. fundamentalists, however, are in some ways dangerous and needs to be confronted. same goes for every other religion...

[Hurlshort]

Archmonarch, thanks for that wonderful post on the Jewish relationship with Jesus. It was extremely informative. :D

 

Random Evil Guy...are you actually looking at the sources you direct us to? http://www.infidels.org/library/historical...eally_live.html doesn't strike me as the best website to make spiritual decisions with. Honestly, I don't trust most churches, but I trust that website even less.