Hurricane!

[SteveThaiBinh]

Why do you watch Fox News?

To get an alternative perspective.

[metadigital]

Very true. Very alternative. I like (the Fox network cartoon) The Simpsons' take on Fox News ... :D

[kalimeeri]

The biggest problem, as I read it, is a race-relations oriented one. It seems that the poorest people (who couldn't afford to leave) are more likely to be black. And the police and emergency services were more worried about "keeping order" than rescuing people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The problem is that it is probably going to be made into a race-relations issue by news hype and activists. That gets a bit tiresome. Poor people are people, period. However, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a justified undercurrent to build on in this case; it fits in the overall picture. NO may well have been a cauldron waiting for a catalyst to bubble over.

 

The mayor didn't even crawl out of the woodwork until someone suggested they import Guiliani from New York to organize things, and then he sounded like an ignorant idiot, rambling on with every other word a profanity and a criticism.

 

Police and emergency had no clear plan in effect (I doubt they could have foreseen the extent of these circumstances anyway); they didn't act, they reacted at ground level. And they finally gave up in frustration and confusion. That isn't leadership. When it's all over, I hope someone takes a microscope to the city fathers. They set police department attitudes and policies, which directly relate to racial tenor. Resorting to the blame game so fast without taking positive action makes me suspicious that they're desperate to shift attention elsewhere.

[SteveThaiBinh]

The problem is that it is probably going to be made into a race-relations issue by news hype and activists.  That gets a bit tiresome.  Poor people are people, period.  However, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a justified undercurrent to build on in this case; it fits in the overall picture.  NO may well have been a cauldron waiting for a catalyst to bubble over. 

Yet wasn't it remarkable (at least I found it so) to watch, on the night of the hurricane, the TV cameras pan around the stadium of those too poor to make it out of the city, and see barely a white face there?

The mayor didn't even crawl out of the woodwork until someone suggested they import Guiliani from New York to organize things, and then he sounded like an ignorant idiot, rambling on with every other word a profanity and a criticism. 

He sounded angry, let down and frustrated to me. This was apparently an interview to a local radio station that I was hearing, but I'd say he was expressing what many people in the city seem to feel.

Police and emergency had no clear plan in effect (I doubt they could have foreseen the extent of these circumstances anyway); they didn't act, they reacted at ground level.  And they finally gave up in frustration and confusion.  That isn't leadership.  When it's all over, I hope someone takes a microscope to the city fathers.  They set police department attitudes and policies, which directly relate to racial tenor.  Resorting to the blame game so fast without taking positive action makes me suspicious that they're desperate to shift attention elsewhere.

I hope there will be the US equivalent of an independent public inquiry, to sort out all the technical problems and get the plans right for the next time this happens. But the danger with such inquiries (we've found in the UK) is that they are so determined to be positive and constructive that they are reluctant to apportion blame, even where blame is due. That's why the blame game has to take place. If Mr Bush, the mayor and others feel they did the best they could, let them defend themselves.

[kalimeeri]

He sounded angry, let down and frustrated to me. This was apparently an interview to a local radio station that I was hearing, but I'd say he was expressing what many people in the city seem to feel.

 

I'm sure he was. Yet ranting on such things publicly does nothing but incite more resentment in his people. It helps no one, and fosters the idea that his whole plan hinged on Federal response. One way or another, a person in his position sets the example. IMO, he should rise above his personal emotions and encourage people to work together. At least he and his city might look slightly better to the world.

 

Yet wasn't it remarkable (at least I found it so) to watch, on the night of the hurricane, the TV cameras pan around the stadium of those too poor to make it out of the city, and see barely a white face there?

 

But the folks at the stadium were only a small percentage of the population who were stranded, and that cross-section isn't really indicative of anything, per se. There are too many other factors involved, not the least of which is who the reporter chose to focus on. People also were unable to leave because outbound roads were completely clogged; some were tourists, and some just refused to leave their homes. The news usually focuses on the most extreme examples, because 'normal' or 'minor damage' has little news value.

 

That said, I wouldn't be surprised that many affected were black, simply because a large percentage of NO's population were. I also wouldn't be surprised if the face of that city didn't change in many ways, because many of the relocated evacuees will never go back.

[kumquatq3]

The death of the US will start inside its borders ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As I always say, we're taking you all with us

[SteveThaiBinh]

I'm sure he was.  Yet ranting on such things publicly does nothing but incite more resentment in his people.  It helps no one, and fosters the idea that his whole plan hinged on Federal response. 

Or it gives a voice to the people at a time when they feel helpless and voiceless. It expresses their feelings and frustrations on their behalf. The guy is a politician - perhaps he knows his constituents well.

But the folks at the stadium were only a small percentage of the population who were stranded, and that cross-section isn't really indicative of anything, per se. 

I don't know the ethnic makeup of New Orleans, though the perception I've always had was that it was very mixed. There were very few non-black faces in that stadium that I could see, enough to make me take notice of it, though if something like 80% of the population as a whole is black, for example, then it's not that significant.

 

The BBC news showed mainly white residents of a home for the elderly being evacuated, but aside from that, wherever in New Orleans they've reported from, it's been refugees with black faces and police with white faces, with only very few exceptions.

 

I don't want to make a race issue where there isn't one, and I don't want to use a tragedy to paper over the cracks if those cracks are real. It's not easy to get the balance right.

[Meshugger]

The biggest problem, as I read it, is a race-relations oriented one. It seems that the poorest people (who couldn't afford to leave) are more likely to be black. And the police and emergency services were more worried about "keeping order" than rescuing people.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The problem is that it is probably going to be made into a race-relations issue by news hype and activists. That gets a bit tiresome. Poor people are people, period. However, I wouldn't be surprised if there is a justified undercurrent to build on in this case; it fits in the overall picture. NO may well have been a cauldron waiting for a catalyst to bubble over.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You mean like this? or this?

[Walsingham]

 

1) Nobody in S Africa would have been dumb enough to ride through a township on the outside of a carrier like that. Too easy to get hit with a molotov or rpg.

 

2) Nobody in a township would have crowded a carrier full of cops like that lady is. Too easy to get shot.

 

People shouldn't play games with the notion that the US has an apartheid system when they clearly know jack about the real thing. It's a comparison which cheapens the original, and slanders the nation in question.

 

~

 

Having said that there is a racial divide in the US. I think, however, that what we are really seeing here is the indifference of the system to the poor in general. Those folks would be quietly waiting to die without proper medical cover or protection in old age without Katrina. It is just that now they are dying out on rooftops they make us uncomfortable. I'm not going to demand the US becomes socialist overnight. But I'm saying if you are going to be a hardcore capitalist state have the balls to face the reality of it. If you don't care, don't care. If you really care, don't just care when it is out in the open.

 

~

 

I'm not entirely clear what you chaps are talking about wrt the Nat. Guard having insufficient resources. I don't see any lack of men, vehicles or similar materiel. I see inadequate planning, preparation and leadership. 'Crazy foreign adventures' actually help prep the armed forces to deal with incidents like this. If I'm wrong help me out by saying which assets in Iraq they need over in NO.

[Meshugger]

1) Nobody in S Africa would have been dumb enough to ride through a township on the outside of a carrier like that. Too easy to get hit with a molotov or rpg.

 

2) Nobody in a township would have crowded a carrier full of cops like that lady is. Too easy to get shot.

 

People shouldn't play games with the notion that the US has an apartheid system when they clearly know jack about the real thing. It's a comparison which cheapens the original, and slanders the nation in question.

 

~

 

Having said that there is a racial divide in the US. I think, however, that what we are really seeing here is the indifference of the system to the poor in general. Those folks would be quietly waiting to die without proper medical cover or protection in old age without Katrina. It is just that now they are dying out on rooftops they make us uncomfortable. I'm not going to demand the US becomes socialist overnight. But I'm saying if you are going to be a hardcore capitalist state have the balls to face the reality of it. If you don't care, don't care. If you really care, don't just care when it is out in the open.

 

~

 

I'm not entirely clear what you chaps are talking about wrt the Nat. Guard having insufficient resources. I don't see any lack of men, vehicles or similar materiel. I see inadequate planning, preparation and leadership. 'Crazy foreign adventures' actually help prep the armed forces to deal with incidents like this. If I'm wrong help me out by saying which assets in Iraq they need over in NO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm well aware of the system in the USA, thus it was a joke.

[Walsingham]

Apologies for causing any offence, mate. My comment was really aimed at the original source, and others who propagate such notions in attempts to sound either better educated or courageous than they really are. It's a sore point since I lost one of the family to an ambush by BOSS mercenaries, who had been working to undermine apartheid by peaceful measures.

 

edit: apparently, 67.25% of NO is black, according to a completely unreliable bloke on the net.

[Meshugger]

Apologies for causing any offence, mate. My comment was really aimed at the original source, and others who propagate such notions in attempts to sound either better educated or courageous than they really are. It's a sore point since I lost one of the family to an ambush by BOSS mercenaries, who had been working to undermine apartheid by peaceful measures.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sure, no offence taken then

[~Di]

I'm well aware of the system in the USA, thus it was a joke.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm so glad our misery can give y'all a giggle. Personally I felt your joke was offensive, and decidedly unfunny. But as long as you were happy with it, I suppose that's all that matters.

[Meshugger]

I'm well aware of the system in the USA, thus it was a joke.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm so glad our misery can give y'all a giggle. Personally I felt your joke was offensive, and decidedly unfunny. But as long as you were happy with it, I suppose that's all that matters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In times of stress, such as catastrophies, wars and other famine, people tend to resort to humor to deal with these things. If you have a grandfather, or any other relative that's been in a war, ask them on how they dealt with the everyday carnage.

 

You might be suprised.

[~Di]

I may use black humor to denigrate my own personal suffering. I won't use it to ridicule your suffering. That, sir or madam, is the difference. Unless, of course, you are posting from a refuge camp somewhere in the southeastern USA. In that case, ridicule away and God bless. Otherwise, your joke was rude and in poor taste, in my opinion.

 

Added on Edit: Meshugger, I must apologize to you for jumping down your throat here. Yes, the joke was in poor taste... but my reaction was based more on the piling up of anger I felt at reading many of the insulting posts in this and other threads, and I lumped all of my indignation on you. It was unfair of me, and I'm sorry.

[Judge Hades]

Hey, Di, we all are a little stressed right now due to the happenings in New Orleans.

 

Speaking of the racial element I just don't get it. Black, white, asian, or whatever, human is still human and that is what matters most.

 

The problems in the Gulf states clearly shows that we are not self sufficient to take care of ourselves and this needs to be rectified. Think of all the resources being spent in Iraq, Afganistan, and other countries of the world our government is shelling out and how much good they could be used in New Orleans, Biloxi, and other areas hit by Katrina.

[metadigital]

I may use black humor to denigrate my own personal suffering.  I won't use it to ridicule your suffering.  That, sir or madam, is the difference.  Unless, of course, you are posting from a refuge camp somewhere in the southeastern USA.  In that case, ridicule away and God bless.  Otherwise, your joke was rude and in poor taste, in my opinion.

 

Added on Edit:  Meshugger, I must apologize to you for jumping down your throat here.  Yes, the joke was in poor taste... but my reaction was based more on the piling up of anger I felt at reading many of the insulting posts in this and other threads, and I lumped all of my indignation on you.  It was unfair of me, and I'm sorry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry to hear you have been insulted. If it is serious enough, you can report the poster. If it is within your means, a post similar to this one calling the poster to task is a good method to stem such bigotry.

 

[metadigital]

Hey, Di, we all are a little stressed right now due to the happenings in New Orleans. 

 

Speaking of the racial element I just don't get it.  Black, white, asian, or whatever, human is still human and that is what matters most.

 

The problems in the Gulf states clearly shows that we are not self sufficient to take care of ourselves and this needs to be rectified.  Think of all the resources being spent in Iraq, Afganistan, and other countries of the world our government is shelling out and how much good they could be used in New Orleans, Biloxi, and other areas hit by Katrina.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think it is borderng on rediculous to cite Afghanistan or Iraq as resource drains on the US.

 

The US requires munitions sinks in which it tests new technology in situ, and "retires" old technology, in the best (for the US) manner possible.

 

The US is committed to an aggressive Arms Race to keep its international military hegemony. They cannot do that without keeping their military current, so even if they didn't spend $87b for a quarter in Iraq, they'd be spending $30-40b in exercises.

 

No, as Meshugger pointed out, the failing here is not military exercises. It is a failure of planning.

 

Having conducted many ISO17799 Security Audits of government and corporate organisations in the last few years, I know that some organisations have plans to mitigate Disaster and others are forced to take an ostrich approach (usually due to a total overload of firefighting in their daily work).

 

Disaster Recovery and Self-sufficiency of these States, and New Orleans in particular, seems to have failed the residents badly. There was a similar issue last Hurricane when most of a southern state lost power; don't forget the power loss of NY as well.

 

A lot of serious questions need to be asked about who is responsible for disasters, probably focusing on different sclaes for each organisation (town, city, state, and larger).

 

For example, I may choose to abnegate insurance on a personal level, but I must look after those for whom I am responsible, despite my personal feelings on the matter. So too, a government must look after all the citizens. As a priority. Just as defence is the first duty of government, so too this means the smallest government organisation must ensure that its charges are protected.

[kumquatq3]

A list of how some New Orleans landmarks held up....at least those not underwater

[Walsingham]

Meta: I thought FEMA had responsibility for making sure all the issues you mentioned were taken care of IN ADVANCE.

 

I also saw this on the Beeb, attributed to junior.

 

"When President Bush told "Good Morning America" on Thursday morning that nobody could have "anticipated" the breach of the New Orleans levees, it pointed to not only a remote leader in denial, but a whole political class."

 

Not only could they have anticipated it using standard engineering techniques, but they DID predict the levees would not stand up to a category four or five. The man is conkers. Quite mad.

[metadigital]

Meta: I thought FEMA had responsibility for making sure all the issues you mentioned were taken care of IN ADVANCE.

 

I also saw this on the Beeb, attributed to junior.

 

"When President Bush told "Good Morning America" on Thursday morning that nobody could have "anticipated" the breach of the New Orleans levees, it pointed to not only a remote leader in denial, but a whole political class."

 

Not only could they have anticipated it using standard engineering techniques, but they DID predict the levees would not stand up to a category four or five. The man is conkers. Quite mad.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, I would have thought so, too. I thought that was the point of the Patriot Act (what a silly name), too: to get all the bureaucracies talking to each other.

 

Sounds like living in denial, or spinning out of trouble. I think this may be a turning point for Dubya; it's one thing to not expect calousness of human spirit to result in buildings being crashed into by 'planes, it's totally another to not prepare adequately for hurricanes in the Gulf states.

[Walsingham]

I mean I don't expect US presidents to be 'all there', but this is pretty far out stuff. I'm sure his team will come up with some way to salvage this, in any event. He has the mass media and a team of very clever folk backing him up.

 

Thinks: it has been far too long since I played Illuminati last.

[Calax]

according to a radio report people have to wait for hours to get ice. their power is out and hasn't been turned backon. and they don't have enough gas.

[metadigital]

Thinks: Time to play Deus Ex again ... hmmm, I've nearly finished the Antarctic level ... wasn't there another Paris level in this sequel?

 

What is the Illuminati Last?

[Calax]

no paris, only Trier and Liberty Island.