Hurricane!

[Walsingham]

I hadn't fully appreciated how bad things had got on the law and order front. back in the 80s we had 'race riots' in London where firecrews were attacked. Similar principle, I suppose.

 

What's this about cops resigning, anyway?

[EnderAndrew]

I haven't seen much in the way of hard facts, but I've read claims that some cops have in fact resigned. I guess they didn't want to risk their lives to rescue people more concerned with rioting than being rescued.

[Walsingham]

I can sympathise, but there's a time and a place. Surely you would not want to abandon your colleagues during a crisis? I don't want to throw stones but surely this is just deserting?

[kalimeeri]

Saying the war in Iraq is responsible for New Orleans is just flat-our ridiculous.

 

Homeland Security budget concerns stemmed from terrorist attacks on US soil, not the war in Iraq.

 

People need to get their facts straight.  And ultimately, each state and city makes their own decisions where to spend money, so pointing fingers at Bush is misplaced here.

 

I can't believe how blind people have become by partisian politics and hatred that they can't differentiate fact from fiction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Exactly. 'It's Bush's fault' finger-pointing is an attempt to shift the blame. Every city and state in the US applies for government subsidies and grants, and not one ever gets all the money they ask for. The city itself bears the responsibility for prioritizing where the funds are spent.

 

As for the complaints about FEMA's slow reaction time, aid never arrives fast enough for those in need. All in all, I think it has taken less time to mobilize the giant this time than it did in the aftermath of Hurricane Andrew. (Practice makes perfect). But again, the responsibility for getting FEMA rolling ASAP falls on the city; there is an application process. Look no farther than the first letter of the acronym: Federal. I know of at least one instance last year where aid was delayed for a week because the application was improperly filled out.

[EnderAndrew]

Generally with a hurricane, the wind does horrible damage, but the water is gone.

 

It is hard to help a city that is 80% under water.

[Walsingham]

Agreed. It is a learning curve. Also, while I don't have any affection for Junior i do know when it isn't poor little fellah's fault.

 

Moreover, far from detracting from the capability of the state, foreign adventures like Iraq, and earlier Somalia have contributed immensely to the skill and experience of units like the Guard and regular Army/Navy.

[EnderAndrew]

[Walsingham]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ah, that would be an ifriit, one of the servants of Solomon, probably summoned by Bin Laden rubbing a lamp.

[BattleCookiee]

Well, it was at a Chemical Factory...

 

See the link I provided before (page got updated) or click

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4207202.stm

[kalimeeri]

I haven't seen much in the way of hard facts, but I've read claims that some cops have in fact resigned.  I guess they didn't want to risk their lives to rescue people more concerned with rioting than being rescued.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

On the face, it does look bad. But consider this: under emergency conditions, many agencies go to a 12-hr work schedule, cancel any and all time off, and will not allow their people to go home. Their families do not exist; if they need something, it's too damn bad. Seeing so much death and destruction, people have a deep psychological need to reassure themselves that their own loved ones are safe.

 

Not the least of the problem is that the local law enforcement position is untenable. Reading between the lines speaks of confusion and conflicting orders, and they certainly don't have the manpower to handle such a crisis. In the absence of unified, organized command, if they take an action on their own, not only will the agency crucify them, but they might even be prosecuted.

 

I don't think sense of duty is the issue. They're under extreme pressure of every kind, and to some it may not be worth it.

[Walsingham]

Sympathy is never a bad thing, but a commitment to work with the emergency services entails certain sacrifices. Which is one more reason why I respect anyone who does. A regimental soldier is not permitted to abandon his post simply to go home if his home-town is bombed. A fireman cannot just leave a large fire because he hears about one at home. A policeman cannot abandon the force during a breakdown in order, just to get to their family.

 

Sympathy is essential to good leadership in a crisis, but discipline cannot be allowed to suffer as a result of sympathy, nor can the standards of commitment and personal conduct be relaxed, but must in fact be raised.

 

I have to say this ties in with scuttlebutt I heard last year about the poor state of morale and professionalism in the NOPD.

[EnderAndrew]

I wouldn't risk my life to save people who are too busy shooting at me to attempt to be rescued.

[Walsingham]

No indeed, but then your duty under those circumstances is to arrest and or neutralise the people shooting, so that the majority of people who DO want to be rescued can be rescued.

[kumquatq3]

I hate to say it, but I doubt this happens in Chicago or New York.

[kumquatq3]

I was watching CNN and they were interviewing a doctor from one of the 3 main hospitals in downtown NO. His hospital was just evacuated by helicopter and he was speaking about the conditions in the other two hospitals.

 

He said that the patients, doctors, and nurses were now all living off IV's due to the complete lack of food and water.

[Calax]

too bad Jack Thompson wasn't vacationing there and got swept away... then there would have at least been a silver lining to a very black cloud

[kumquatq3]

Saying the war in Iraq is responsible for New Orleans is just flat-our ridiculous.

 

No one said that. Katrina is responsible.

 

but two facts remain:

 

1. Work on the levees was slowed by underfunding (about 33% of what was requested)

 

Ap:

"I'm not saying that this would not have occurred in New Orleans in this situation," said Mike Parker, a former Mississippi congressman who headed the engineering agency from 2001 to 2002 told The Associated Press. "I am saying that there would have been less flooding if all the projects had been funded." "Levees would have been higher, levees would have been bigger, there would have been other pumps put in."

 

This underfunding goes back to Carter. The attempted budgets cuts have been drastic in recent years tho

 

Just in February, President George W. Bush proposed cutting the Corps' budget by 7 percent. The year before, Bush proposed a 13 percent cut.

 

If you think that Iraq did not take some type of toll on the annual budget, hence it left less money for funding these type of projects, thats just flat-our ridiculous.

 

2. The National Guard, which as you must know has been heavily used in Iraq, which of course means there is less for this type of thing.

 

 

Boston Globe:

The National Guard's scramble to bring aid and order to New Orleans and the Gulf Coast is hamstrung by the fact that units across the country have, on average, half their usual amount of equipment -- helicopters, Humvees, trucks, and weapons -- on hand because much of it has been siphoned off to fight the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, according to military officials and security specialists

 

Boston Globe:

The equipment the Guard needs to help in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina is in shorter supply because the gear is in use in combat zones, is battle-damaged, or has been loaned to cover gaps in other units, the officials said. The National Guard Bureau estimates that its nationwide equipment availability rate is 35 percent, about half the normal level, according to Pentagon statistics.

 

''In the four years since 9/11 that we have been at war, equipment has been beaten up, blown up, or simply left behind," said John Goheen of the National Guard Association of the United States. ''States have had to borrow equipment and make do with a lot less equipment. We are short literally thousands of Humvees."

 

Meanwhile, in Louisiana and Mississippi, the states hit hardest by the hurricane, up to 40 percent of their National Guard troops are on active duty in Iraq. As a result, Guard commanders responding to the storm's havoc have been forced to look further afield for military police and other National Guard units and equipment from states as far away as Maryland, stealing precious time from the relief efforts.

 

Now, you can argue for the war and against it all you want, hindsight is 20/20, but this situation IS worse because of the wars in Iraq and Afganistan.

[SteveThaiBinh]

If we foreigners think we can just laugh this one out we should bear in mind a couple of facts:

 

1) A lack of foreign assistance could sour domestic US attitudes to the 'outside' world.

I've been wondering about foreign assistance, offers and rejections.

 

I doubt many in the outside world are laughing. No-one I know is. I heard a commentator on the ever-reliable Fox News suggest that people in Europe were laughing to see the US in trouble. It's sad that some people will use any excuse to push their Euro-bashing agenda.

 

There are several reasons why so little aid was offered in the beginning. First of all, we were as slow as the US government to realise what a catastrophe this was. There have been so many hurricanes affecting the US, all with great damage to property and little loss of life. It took a while to recognise that this wasn't a hurricane, it was a flood - and there's a big difference.

 

The second thing is that it's hard to believe that the US needs aid. On hearing of the tsunami, you instantly know that Indonesia and Sri Lanka are going to need help because the countries and the people are very poor. The US is the richest country in the world. Yet it turns out that they don't have a well-designed plan for this kind of event. The US government aid is getting there now, but it took a long long time. I don't blame the people of New Orleans for being angry with their government.

 

It's also a very European approach to assume that the government has first responsibility to take care of the people. The fact that the people of New Orleans most affected are very poor doesn't stir us to give money because we know that the rich of America and the government of America have more than enough money to deal with the problem, and ultimately they have the duty to do so. Better to keep our money going to the tsunami victims (who still need help) and other development or aid projects.

 

It's wrong to blame the weakness of the aid relief programme on the Iraq war. The one did not cause the other, but they are both symptoms of the same problem. A large country like the US, Russia or China, generates a lot of money for the government in the centre, and the politicians find it more interesting and fun to waste that money on foolish foreign adventures or prestige projects rather than the humble, practical poverty-alleviation programmes that are really needed. It also reflects a reverse in what was, in the 90s, a useful and positive widening of the concept of 'security' as it applied to people's lives. UNDP includes food security, health security, military security and environmental security to create a complex picture of what people need in order to live decent lives. Since the attacks of September 11, this balanced approach has been abandoned as military security dominates the agenda and budgets of the world.

[metadigital]

The biggest problem, as I read it, is a race-relations oriented one. It seems that the poorest people (who couldn't afford to leave) are more likely to be black. And the police and emergency services were more worried about "keeping order" than rescuing people.

[EnderAndrew]

Why do you watch Fox News?

[metadigital]

It helps to raise aggression in the pacifist.

[EnderAndrew]

Why not just watch the Jerry Springer Show?

[metadigital]

I thought that was Fox news!

[Meshugger]

South Africa 1975 or America 2005? (got this from another forum)

 

[metadigital]

The death of the US will start inside its borders ...