But the #1 reason that CRPGs aren't dying...

[GhostofAnakin]

Troika is gone which is also not a good sign.

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Troika is gone because Troika wasn't very well managed from the business and management side of things. They even admitted so much in one of their final interviews, so I don't think you can blame or attribute the "changing trends" of the business on their failure.

[Lancer]

Troika is gone because Troika wasn't very well managed from the business and management side of things.  They even admitted so much in one of their final interviews, so I don't think you can blame or attribute the "changing trends" of the business on their failure.

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I am not blaming things on Troika. But PC RPG companies come and go like nobody's business. I don't see Square-Enix going out of business because of "management issues" anytime soon.

 

What are the specifics though on the Troika break-up? Do you have a link?

The real reasons might very well still be sales-related..

[GhostofAnakin]

I am not blaming things on Troika. But PC RPG companies come and go like nobody's business. I don't see Square-Enix going out of business because of "management issues" anytime soon.

 

I didn't say you were blaming things on Troika. I was saying that Troika can't blame their going out of business on the market or its trends.

 

What are the specifics though on the Troika break-up? Do you have a link?

The real reasons might very well still be sales-related..

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No links, sorry. But one of the main guys (Leonard Boyarsky or something?) stated (I'm paraphrasing a little) something to the effect that if they could do things differently, they'd have brought in guys who were strictly management or had experience in management. Because it was effectively game designers trying to also do the management side of the business, which they weren't equipped for.

 

Thus, they didn't plan well, they didn't maximize funding well, and they didn't prioritize well since they didn't have a person with management background or strength helping run the projects.

[Lancer]

That makes me feel a little better... in a way (if this is indeed true).

 

But this begs the question.. Why are unfortunate events like this so commonplace in the PC RPG industry? Why does the PC RPG market seem so unstable as compared to the console side of things?

[Lancer]

Undoubtedly more console projects are along the way.

 

Which makes me ask...what's the point of this again?

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Actually my point to Volourn here comes basically down to that developers change their game-developing style upon changing platforms in order to reflect the desires of the target market. And this has been almost exclusively the PC RPG company making games for the console rather than the other way around. This may or may not signify a push for more console RPGs at the expense of PC ones.

[alanschu]

I would attribute the fall of BIS to be just as much towards the hidious mismanagment by Interplay. And Troika? Well, what do you expect from a company that released three buggy titles in a row, and then blamed publishers for their woes? Arcanum wasn't too bad, but TOEE from what I hear was pretty messy and Bloodlines wasn't the most solid release I had ever seen either.

 

And regardless, with the fall of BIS we got Obsidian, and they're making NWN2 which from what I gather is not a console RPG either.

 

I also don't think growth of a major "PC RPG" maker should just be limited to building games for the PC. I get the impression that you don't like Bioware making console games because you see it as them being assimilated by the console environment. I see it as being a smart business decision because limiting yourself to a smaller market just makes things more difficult for you. Bioware still has Dragon Age in development, which is an immensely ambitious, PC only project. And has Bethesda made any game that didn't come out for PC?

 

 

I think the only real "fall" of PC RPG companies goes to the companies that have a static version of what it takes to be a PC RPG. As a result, they didn't evolve and faded away.

 

Even if such things as strong narratives and party interaction were inspired by JRPGS, it doesn't take away from the fact that this has made western RPGs more enjoyable, and should be fully integrated. The way you phrase it seems like the inclusion of such things is foreshadowing for a doom and gloom slippery slope of all games becoming linear JRPGs, when I see the addition of those elements as making PC RPGs stronger and more viable.

[GhostofAnakin]

Even if such things as strong narratives and party interaction were inspired by JRPGS, it doesn't take away from the fact that this has made western RPGs more enjoyable, and should be fully integrated.  The way you phrase it seems like the inclusion of such things is foreshadowing for a doom and gloom slippery slope of all games becoming linear JRPGs, when I see the addition of those elements as making PC RPGs stronger and more viable.

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That's a good point. Just because game companies start integrating certain aspects of the JRPG model doesn't mean they will adopt all aspects of it.

[Lancer]

I would attribute the fall of BIS to be just as much towards the hidious mismanagment by Interplay.  And Troika?  Well, what do you expect from a company that released three buggy titles in a row, and then blamed publishers for their woes?  Arcanum wasn't too bad, but TOEE from what I hear was pretty messy and Bloodlines wasn't the most solid release I had ever seen either.

 

Bethesda makes very buggy games as well yet they are alive and running. No, I suspect that there were sales-related reasons to Troika's demise as well. Just how well did Arcanum, ToEE, and Vampire do sales-wise?

 

And regardless, with the fall of BIS we got Obsidian, and they're making NWN2 which from what I gather is not a console RPG either.

 

But why is this constant re-shufflng of companies so common in the PC RPG industry?

 

I also don't think growth of a major "PC RPG" maker should just be limited to building games for the PC.  I get the impression that you don't like Bioware making console games because you see it as them being assimilated by the console environment.  I see it as being a smart business decision because limiting yourself to a smaller market just makes things more difficult for you.  Bioware still has Dragon Age in development, which is an immensely ambitious, PC only project.  And has Bethesda made any game that didn't come out for PC?

 

I don't mind that a PC RPG developer makes console games as long as it makes PC ones as well. I just hope that it is not indicative of a slow gradual assimilation into the console industry. If the developer continues putting out a steady influx of games for both then I don't mind.

IMHO, we don't really know which of the two scenarios is correct.. Only time will tell.

 

Even if such things as strong narratives and party interaction were inspired by JRPGS, it doesn't take away from the fact that this has made western RPGs more enjoyable, and should be fully integrated.  The way you phrase it seems like the inclusion of such things is foreshadowing for a doom and gloom slippery slope of all games becoming linear JRPGs, when I see the addition of those elements as making PC RPGs stronger and more viable.

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I did state numerous times that the strong narrative and party interaction that modern PC RPGS have are a welcome addition to the genre. I never argued the contrary. I agreed that such aspects have strengthened PC RPGs and they should continue making PC RPGs with the said elements. I never did say that these things were a portent of doom.

[alanschu]

You did say "So you don't care if in the foreseeable future the only RPGs around are linear JRPGS" when GoA mentioned he had no preference over playing PC or console.

 

 

 

Also, why exactly did Square/Enix merge? Wouldn't that constitute a restructuring as well?

 

As for Bethesda releasing horribly buggy games, I didn't think that Morrowind was that buggy. I've heard horror stories about Daggerfall, but it seems Bethesda got better.....Troika didn't.

[Lancer]

You did say "So you don't care if in the foreseeable future the only RPGs around are linear JRPGS" when GoA mentioned he had no preference over playing PC or console.

 

Translation: So you don't care in the foreseeable future that the only RPGs around are Final Fantasy-style RPGS. Obviously, PC RPGS with strong narrative and character interaction don't fall into that characterization. I believe PC RPGS have evolved into a better beast by doing the above.. I don't think this alone implies that in a generation or so PC RPGs will become Final Fantasy clones. What does seem like a potential threat to me is the fact that PC RPGs developers are also developing console RPGS. Time will tell if the threat is real.

 

As for Bethesda releasing horribly buggy games, I didn't think that Morrowind was that buggy.  I've heard horror stories about Daggerfall, but it seems Bethesda got better.....Troika didn't.

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Daggerfall.. was *bad* in this regard.

 

Oh.. and I don't see Square going out of business anytime soon. There may be mergers but bankruptcys don't seem to run rampant like in the PC RPG industry.

[Calax]

If I remeber correctly until the time of ff7 there was no real RPG genre other than FF. then people began to make other styles than "Jrpgs" and this exploded into MMO's

[Volourn]

"Really? According to this Bioware didn't branch out into the console arena until 2000 with MDK2. This is a full 5 years after Bioware's inception and by that same year it had already made BGI, BGII, ToB, TotSC, and Shattered Steel which are *all* PC titles. Up until 2000, Bioware hadn't made any console titles. Since then they have developed the following console titles: MDK series, KOTOR, and JE. Undoubtedly more console projects are along the way."

 

Ok. 'From their inception' is probably a tad too far; but you make it sound like it's a recent devlopment when it's not. Also, KOTOR is not a console project. It's a console-pc project.

 

 

 

"And if you can't discuss things without trolling or insulting then I will ignore your future posts. Just to let you know in advance."

 

a) I wasn't trolling nor did I flame. I merely mentioned in a R00fles kinda away that your information was wrong. You see, you pointed out my info about BIO's first console project was off, and you ain't gonna see me cry about it. Not a biggie.

 

b) Please don't threaten me. IGnore my posts. I definitely won't cry about that. LOL I think I'll survive. Unlike you, I don't try to make things personality. I disagreed with your post, and said so. if you take that as a personal attack; it ain't my problem.

 

 

"As for Bethesda releasing horribly buggy games, I didn't think that Morrowind was that buggy."

 

MW wa sbuggy; but anyways, the reason Betehsda gets away with bugginess and Troika seemingly didn't is obvious for several reasons.

 

a) Overall, most people who play Bethesda games go away enjoying their time with said game.

 

b) Bethesda has no problem making patches.

 

c) They don't go blame other companies for their shoddy work.

 

And, all that's coming from someone who despises Bethesda games, and enjoyed Troika games for the most part.

 

 

"So you don't care in the foreseeable future that the only RPGs around are Final Fantasy-style RPGS. Obviously, PC RPGS with strong narrative and character interaction don't fall into that characterization."

 

DA, NWN2, ES4, and G3 are all in the foreseeable future, and from what i've heard NONE of them are FinaL Fantasy style RPGs. Hmmm..

[alanschu]

You did say "So you don't care if in the foreseeable future the only RPGs around are linear JRPGS" when GoA mentioned he had no preference over playing PC or console.

 

Translation: So you don't care in the foreseeable future that the only RPGs around are Final Fantasy-style RPGS. Obviously, PC RPGS with strong narrative and character interaction don't fall into that characterization.

 

Ok, I'm not getting things here. I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. I don't feel that a PC RPG with a strong narrative and character interaction would fall into "Final Fantasy-style RPGs" just like I don't consider KOTOR to be a Final Fantasy-style RPG. Or Morrowind. Or Neverwinter Nights. Nor do I expect Dragon Age, Neverwinter Nights 2, or anything else to be a part of that category.

 

My point here is that imagine one day you wake up and there are no more Ultimas, Fallouts, BGs, or Torments to play on your PC.. You go to EB and there is nothing left but Final Fantasy clones for PC.. Wouldn't that be a nightmare?

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't like that.

 

I wouldn't like that. Fortunately, I have yet to see any indication of that actually happening. PC RPGs developing party interactions does not equal an assimilation of the RPG world into Final Fantasy games.

 

 

As for Bethesda releasing horribly buggy games, I didn't think that Morrowind was that buggy.  I've heard horror stories about Daggerfall, but it seems Bethesda got better.....Troika didn't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Daggerfall.. was *bad* in this regard.

 

Was their 2nd and 3rd game just as bad? Furthermore, did their first three games have large development costs? There's sooooooooo much behind the scenes that we don't possibly know.

 

 

Oh.. and I don't see Square going out of business anytime soon. There may be mergers but bankruptcys don't seem to run rampant like in the PC RPG industry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And I don't see Bioware going out of business any time soon. Nor do I follow the plethora of smaller console RPG developers to know whether or not they are all successful or not.

 

 

EDIT: Fixed my horrible UBB quoting skills.

[Lancer]

DA, NWN2, ES4, and G3 are all in the foreseeable future, and from what i've heard NONE of them are FinaL Fantasy style RPGs. Hmmm..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't understand why so many people are misinterpreting that statement as if it was something I believe in... All I meant it to be was a hypothetical scenario.

 

Realize that I never said that this WILL happen, but merely that if it WERE to happen it would suck. There is a difference.

 

a) I wasn't trolling nor did I flame. I merely mentioned in a R00fles kinda away that your information was wrong. You see, you pointed out my info about BIO's first console project was off, and you ain't gonna see me cry about it. Not a biggie.

 

Right.. And notice how I stated the fact without having to mock you or put down your argument or anything. I used to get confrontational with you in the past.. But I have since realized that it ain't worth it.

 

 

b) Please don't threaten me. IGnore my posts. I definitely won't cry about that. LOL I think I'll survive. Unlike you, I don't try to make things personality. I disagreed with your post, and said so. if you take that as a personal attack; it ain't my problem.

 

Threatened? That is a strong word. I never threatened you and it is funny you would say I did.

You didn't just "disagree" with my post you mocked me and replied with some sort of attitude. I think you can make your points come across without having to resort to smarta$$-type remarks.

[Lancer]

You did say "So you don't care if in the foreseeable future the only RPGs around are linear JRPGS" when GoA mentioned he had no preference over playing PC or console.

 

Translation: So you don't care in the foreseeable future that the only RPGs around are Final Fantasy-style RPGS. Obviously, PC RPGS with strong narrative and character interaction don't fall into that characterization.

 

Ok, I'm not getting things here. I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not. I don't feel that a PC RPG with a strong narrative and character interaction would fall into "Final Fantasy-style RPGs" just like I don't consider KOTOR to be a Final Fantasy-style RPG. Or Morrowind. Or Neverwinter Nights. Nor do I expect Dragon Age, Neverwinter Nights 2, or anything else to be a part of that category.

 

My point here is that imagine one day you wake up and there are no more Ultimas, Fallouts, BGs, or Torments to play on your PC.. You go to EB and there is nothing left but Final Fantasy clones for PC.. Wouldn't that be a nightmare?

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't like that.

 

I wouldn't like that. Fortunately, I have yet to see any indication of that actually happening. PC RPGs developing party interactions does not equal an assimilation of the RPG world into Final Fantasy games.

 

 

As for Bethesda releasing horribly buggy games, I didn't think that Morrowind was that buggy.  I've heard horror stories about Daggerfall, but it seems Bethesda got better.....Troika didn't.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Daggerfall.. was *bad* in this regard.

 

Was their 2nd and 3rd game just as bad? Furthermore, did their first three games have large development costs? There's sooooooooo much behind the scenes that we don't possibly know.

 

 

Oh.. and I don't see Square going out of business anytime soon. There may be mergers but bankruptcys don't seem to run rampant like in the PC RPG industry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And I don't see Bioware going out of business any time soon. Nor do I follow the plethora of smaller console RPG developers to know whether or not they are all successful or not.

 

 

EDIT: Fixed my horrible UBB quoting skills.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I had edited that post ..It is different now

[alanschu]

I don't understand why so many people are misinterpreting that statement as if it was something I believe in...  All I meant it to be was a hypothetical scenario.

 

Realize that I never said that this WILL happen, but merely that if it WERE to  happen it would suck. There is a difference.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I guess the next question is why mention it if you don't think it's going to happen? When you mention the situation, it gives credence to the idea that you think it's a possibility.

[alanschu]

What does seem like a potential threat to me is the fact that PC RPGs developers are also developing console RPGS.

 

I'd attribute that more to greed/smart business. Ignoring the big market would be rather silly. Having said that, ignoring the market of fans that like western RPGs would be equally silly.

[Calax]

Ohhh don't forget they try to make Cross platform RPG's/semiRPGs that end up being great for the Console but have more bugs than the earth does on the PC.

[Lancer]

I guess the next question is why mention it if you don't think it's going to happen?  When you mention the situation, it gives credence to the idea that you think it's a possibility.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I brought that situation specifically for GoA. He had said that it didn't bother him that Bioware was making console RPGS hence which is why I had brought that hypothetical situation..

 

Although, I do realize that it makes "business-sense" for companies like Bioware and Obsidian to also design console RPGS, I do admit that this trend does make me a bit paranoid. It makes it worse when I see some of our favorite RPG developers biting the dust. Maybe this paranoia is justified.. Maybe it is not. Regardless, it makes me wonder what is *really* going on.

 

But only time will tell for sure.

[Lancer]

Was their 2nd and 3rd game just as bad?  Furthermore, did their first three games have large development costs?  There's sooooooooo much behind the scenes that we don't possibly know.

 

Exactly.. And I am sure people have heard reasons for Troika's demise but there is so much stuff behind the scenes that I am not sure if we really do know all the details surrounding it.

[GhostofAnakin]

I brought that situation specifically for GoA. He had said that it didn't bother him that Bioware was making console RPGS hence which is why I had brought that hypothetical situation..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, I meant I wouldn't care either way, since I play both. So my response would have been the same if you said the complete opposite, replacing "making console RPGs" with "making PC RPGs".

[Jediphile]

That makes me feel a little better... in a way (if this is indeed true).

 

But this begs the question.. Why are unfortunate events  like this so commonplace in the PC RPG industry? Why does the PC RPG market seem so unstable as compared to the console side of things?

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Well, RPGs are probably about the worst sort of games to write - you have allow players genuine choice in the game, or else it wouldn't be an RPG, which means actually writing the outcome of all of those possibilities. It's not particularly attractive to a programmer, because few players will ever see all those outcomes you had to write. Writing a totally linear game is much more attractive, because there is no doubt people will always see all of your work.

 

For that reason I think perhaps many of the best programmers aren't attracted to the CRPG industry, and so it falls to either those with the ideals to write good RPGs or to just plain bad programmers... Not that I wish to speak ill of any programmers in the CRPG industry, but it would fit with what you say, and we do see lots of half-baked RPGs coming out...

 

And, of course, there are the consoles. There are limits to how you can set a game up, if it's to work on a console, and since the companies won't be writing separate versions for each platform, the games just get ported across. The PC would allow more flexibility than a console simply by virtue of its harddrive, but obviously the games will be written on the basis of the lowest common denominator... And it's easier to program from the consoles, since you don't have to take about a gazillion different PC setups into account (different CPU, Radeon or GeForce graphics, etc...).

 

But I don't think the CPRG is dying. For me it's like when Magic: The Gathering came out, and everybody said it would be the doom of tabletop RPG, because now you had something new and original to replace it. I played Magic in those days, and I enjoyed it, but I never thought that it would be the end of the RPG market, and it wasn't. Magic did "steal" the RPG customers, but only for a while - after the novelty of Magic had passed, the role-players went back to the tables and played on, and they still do.

 

I see the same thing happening with the CRPGs - they're in a bit of a dark age now, because they are bloody expensive to produce, and you have to market them for both PC and consoles to earn any money, but it will change. The PC evolution "rush" will slow down in a few years, and the market will become broader again. By then CRPGs will be making better use than it does now of bringing players together over the internet, and the CRPG market will flourish a bit more again.

[EnderAndrew]

KOTOR and Morrowind that were RPGs that didn't just win RPG of the Year, they won tons of Game of the Year awards, and many action titles are starting to implement RPG elements because it is popular.

 

There are boat-loads of RPGs on consoles that people on this forum are usually too proud to play.

 

RPGs aren't in a dark age.

[Jediphile]

KOTOR and Morrowind that were RPGs that didn't just win RPG of the Year, they won tons of Game of the Year awards, and many action titles are starting to implement RPG elements because it is popular.

 

There are boat-loads of RPGs on consoles that people on this forum are usually too proud to play.

 

RPGs aren't in a dark age.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

While I haven't actually played Morrowind, I find that most RPGs these days are mostly glorified hackfests and little else. People call games like Dungeon Siege or the Diablo games RPGs, and in my book they just aren't, because there's no role-playing in them. KotOR games aren't even what I'd call real CRPGs, since the stories are exceedingly linear... But they at least have deep and interesting plots, and that helps a lot. For real CRPGs, I play Fallout or similar...

[alanschu]

Which I think goes back to people maintaining static definitions of the genre they like.

 

Is this unwillingness to change a good thing? It's beliefs like this that kept decent party interaction out of western CRPGs for as long as there were.