Vampire Game

[EnderAndrew]

In regards to the base difficulty, I thought I had told the players that it was in effect, my one house rule to make the game more challenging. However, given that all the later versions of the rules system also used this rule, I could be in essence just using the most recent version.

 

Abberant, Exalted, and Requiem all use the base 7 difficulty.

 

Str+5 sounds like a lot of damage. It is, but you are missing out on quite a few variables.

 

You have to roll successes to actually inflict wounds. On 12 dice, only 5 wounds were actually rolled, and given that you need a 7 on a d10, on average, you're only going to roll a success 40% of the time.

 

The vampire receiving the damage can spend blood to heal, and has a soak role. If that Vampire has the Fortitude discipline on top of that, you'd never be able to damage them period unless there ways in the game to do copious ammounts of damage.

 

The Prince is a former PC of mine with a Stamina of 5, Fortitude of 5, Obfuscate of 4, and Protean of 5. He can soak most any damage in the world, go to Mist form, and hide to boot. Add Celerity, Potence, and various other Disciplines in the mix and try killing that.

 

The weapons aren't nearly as imbalancing as you think.

 

The Assamite clan book for instance, goes into combat rules a bit more indepth, as do some of the Storyteller books. Yes, the Dark Ages book assumes people might be wearing chain mail, and the modern book assumes that people won't be carrying around Great Swords in a city. It tends to attack attention.

 

If and when a player attempts to carry a Greatsword around a city, there will be repercussions.

 

I was flat-out wrong on what 3rd edition says about healing. But I run LARP games predominantly, and I keep assuming the base mechanics should be the same. In every iteration of the LARP rules it has always clearly said you can heal instantaneously. Why White Wolf would have that rule be different in the pen-and-paper version baffles me.

 

However, for balance reasons I have decided to allow instantaneous healing. You guys should be happy with this, as it will benefit you more.

 

With a playing group this large, you will outnumber many of your foes. You'll be able to do copious ammounts of damage, and the victim can only heal once per round. However, each of you can heal once, so as a group you can heal quite a bit more, and deal out quite a bit more damage. Don't argue rules that will undoubtedly save the lives of a bunch of player characters that weren't built for combat!

 

Just wait until you run into a bunch of NPCs who have Celerity and you stand still for each of their extra actions!

[Kaftan Barlast]

My chief concern with using the extra damage weapons+instant healing is mainly

 

 

a) More damage, but instantaneous healing basicly means that, practicly, a vampires bloodpool is added on top of his health levels. We'll will be fighting each enemy until he runs out of blood and fenzies, and only at that point can we actually begin to hack away at his actual health levels. Even though we can deal heavy damage, the fighting will still go on for much longer and we already have problems with combat taking up far too much of the actual playing time.

 

b) The enhanced weapon damages are compensated when fighting vampires because of their healing powers, but mortals cant heal and so combat against mortals or ghouls(who only have 1-2 blood points to spend) would be unbalanced.

 

 

 

 

 

But it has worked so far and since youve been using it in your chronicles there might be no need to do anything about it. Kind of "dont fix it if it aint broke". But if we experience problems/bugs we might have to go over the rules again.

 

 

Just wait until you run into a bunch of NPCs who have Celerity and you stand still for each of their extra actions!

 

I dont remember how it works with doing multiple actions? Is the dicepool halved or is one dice subtracted? When trying to defend against celerity-whores, I mean.

 

I remeber at the first LARP I went to, there was a bit of combat and the GM just stepped up and sighed "Ok, those of you who dont have celerity can go home now" :D ..it wasnt that funny at the time

[213374U]

Str+5 sounds like a lot of damage.  It is, but you are missing out on quite a few variables.

 

You have to roll successes to actually inflict wounds.  On 12 dice, only 5 wounds were actually rolled, and given that you need a 7 on a d10, on average, you're only going to roll a success 40% of the time.

I assume you are going to up the ranged weapons damage as well, then?

 

 

The vampire receiving the damage can spend blood to heal, and has a soak role.  If that Vampire has the Fortitude discipline on top of that, you'd never be able to damage them period unless there ways in the game to do copious ammounts of damage.

 

The Prince is a former PC of mine with a Stamina of 5, Fortitude of 5, Obfuscate of 4, and Protean of 5.  He can soak most any damage in the world, go to Mist form, and hide to boot.  Add Celerity, Potence, and various other Disciplines in the mix and try killing that.

That's the reason there is aggravated damage. And characters with 10 soak dice are not the norm. Only heavily combat-oriented (and very powerful) characters have that sort of stats. Not only that, but it also introduces a huge imbalance between going bare-fisted and carrying a knife or a sword, to the point of rendering the brawl skill useless, unless you have Protean.

 

 

The Assamite clan book for instance, goes into combat rules a bit more indepth, as do some of the Storyteller books.  Yes, the Dark Ages book assumes people might be wearing chain mail, and the modern book assumes that people won't be carrying around Great Swords in a city.  It tends to attack attention.

It's interesting that you bring up the Assamites, considering that their special brand Discipline allows them to deal aggravated damage with melee weapons. I'd rather not be hit with 10+ dice of aggravated damage several times in a round from a regular melee weapon if I can help it. In fact, I'd probably be playing an Assamite if I had known we were using this kind of crazy damage. "

 

 

With a playing group this large, you will outnumber many of your foes.  You'll be able to do copious ammounts of damage, and the victim can only heal once per round.  However, each of you can heal once, so as a group you can heal quite a bit more, and deal out quite a bit more damage.  Don't argue rules that will undoubtedly save the lives of a bunch of player characters that weren't built for combat!

 

Just wait until you run into a bunch of NPCs who have Celerity and you stand still for each of their extra actions!

Well, you are the GM and you have the final say on any rules matter. But in my experience, modifying the rules this way can result in unpleasant imbalances, as a lucky roll can end the "Final Boss" in the first stroke of a fight, somewhat ruining the Chronicle, or result in Final Death for a PC "before they know what hit them".

 

But hey, you're the boss.

[EnderAndrew]

There are tons of ways to do massive ammounts of aggravated damage.

 

Tremere have a level 1 or 2 ritual that allows them to turn any weapon into one that does agg for instance.

 

Vampire bites always do agg as well.

 

I firmly believe that Vampires should have the upper hand in straight combat against a mortal or ghoul. There are firearms that do aggravated damage, and guns that do considerable damage. Automatic weapons can empty an entire clip into someone. I've seen guns that do 12 dice of damage, before you add in bonus dice from successes.

 

Combat won't me made longer due to healing on the whole. It is my experience that in a group setting, most combats are still over in 2 rounds. You have ten players that can dish out damage. Let's say the NPC in question can heal 2 lethal in a round. Do agg and it can't be healed, or just do plenty of damage from the 10 of you attacking.

 

If you're worried than an assamite can be quite lethal, then you should be. Characters built for combat will excel at combat. Many of you didn't build for combat. Either stay on the good side of the Assamite, or if you plan to attack him, fight on your terms.

 

This isn't a World of Pleasantness.

[Kaftan Barlast]

One of the problems is that when hey made up that nasty Quietus discipline, the phattest weapon you could have was a Str+3 axe :D

 

 

 

In any case I would not allow any of the weapons from this page. Not only are they grossly inaccurate(like how a crossbow would do more damage than an anti-tank missile) and insanely overpowered(Mac-10 does 25damage?!?!), but they are not for 3rd ed VtM.

 

http://members.aol.com/SilasMcbth/index19.html

[EnderAndrew]

Yet the Desert Eagle does a reasonable 7.

[Calax]

Don't forget to thow in the Mage's X-5's... or a crew of hunters who have a large enough bankroll that they can have 5 m-16's and a Minigun in a tuba case. (I have actually had my party do the latter. I perfered my .45's)

 

I don't think many of the people you meet would be carrying broadswords because those attact attention and may break the masqerade (how many people who don't come to look at gunshots would look for a sword clashing?) Also I'd be harder to hide than most weapons because of it's sheer size. It's not like your blade, who's accepted as an urban myth and is able to dissapear before media attn. Also because of the Ravanos Anti waking One would think all the Ravanos would dissapear because they ended up being very close to psycho during those nights.

 

Anyway Just some thoughts :shrugs:

[Musopticon?]

Hush Calax... I don't want any more out-of-char info. THe rulebook spoiled me already.

 

Ehrmm, sorry guys. I'm not fully sure if I can attend the game anymore. There were some...family matters to attend to last time. Also after me not making any effort whatsoever at solving the lack of an epilogue session, my char had no reason to go to Vegas. I really couldn't attend the game.

 

This rule talk is making me nervous too. I hate tables.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Im just bothered by the fact that people build damage charts with no real knowledge of ballistics and physics. If you take vampires, they dont have any vital points so its pure meat destruction that is the key:

 

 

Take a door, blow a hole in it with a sawed-off shotgun. Youll be able to put your fist through it. Then shoot it with a .50, youll get a hole the size of your index finger. -how could you possibly merit the pistol doing nearly as much damage as the shotgun?

 

Second, and axe does equal or more damage than a long blade because the power is concentrated along a smaller edge, and the kinetic energy is also larger because of the compact forces working on the small axe head. I have a sword which Ive played around withg a lot and an axe does a lot deeper gashes..

 

 

this post wasnt as comprehensive as I intended i to be because Ive got to run now, cheerio!

[FFSOMGLOLOLOL]

Take a door, blow a hole in it with a sawed-off shotgun. Youll be able to put your fist through it. Then shoot it with a .50, youll get a hole the size of your index finger. -how could you possibly merit the pistol doing nearly as much damage as the shotgun?

The only factor that matters is kinetic energy delivered (overpenetration notwithstanding). While a shotgun has obviously more damage potential on soft tissues, its ability to actually tear the target to pieces is fairly low. Furthermore, a door is made of unelastic materials, while flesh is elastic.

On the other hand, a direct headshot from a .500 S&W cartridge against an unarmored target will not leave much of the head. In high velocity rounds with a significantly smaller mass (sniper ordnance), internal damage is achieved by means of hydrostatic shock. This, added to the fact that mortals can't soak lethal damage somewhat balances it without making it too cumbersome by introducing specific ballistics.

 

Also, the page seems to be screwed at some points. The MAC-10 doing 25 dmg is an example. It's listed to have a .45 difficulty to hit and to use "5" caliber ammunition. Also, it has a nifty "jacket" clip (hey, if you can have a belt of ammo, why not a jacket?)

 

 

Second, and axe does equal or more damage than a long blade because the power is concentrated along a smaller edge, and the kinetic energy is also larger because of the compact forces working on the small axe head. I have a sword which Ive played around withg a lot and an axe does a lot deeper gashes..

True. Not only that but I feel that heavy axes and two-handed swords should also inflict levels of bashing damage, on top of the lethal damage caused by the weapon's edge.

 

However, the way to inflict maximum damage with a sword of any kind is not by making swipes with it, but rather by stabbing. That way any damage dealt is always inflicted to the internal organs and the potential for hemorrhage is much higher, not to mention much more difficult to fix by surgery.

 

That is why, when compared to firearms, it doesn't make much sense to have bladed weapons do such huge damage.

[Kaftan Barlast]

In any case, the VtM rules system is made for balance and ease of use, not to simulate reality. Therefore everything we say is moot, aswell as that fruitcake who made the list of those weapons. For the game to remain completely balanced, we should stick to what the core rulebook says.

 

 

p.s

 

hydrostatic shock has been disproved. although ammunition manufacturers are still wrongly using the term to market their products.

[Guest Fishboot]

That is why, when compared to firearms, it doesn't make much sense to have bladed weapons do such huge damage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've read in various places that the advantages of bladed weapons in VtM are just there for thematic purposes, with any pseudoscientific "tissue loss" explanations being rationalizations. Really, even the most realistic RPGs (GURPS, for example) severely tone down realistic automatic weapons. A super-strong vampire using a realistic machine gun designed to be "vampire portable" with a 30kg gun and 80kg of amunition could probably turn a dinosaur into gibbets of meat in fifteen seconds of fire (and be 20kg lighter).

[metadigital]

...

However, the way to inflict maximum damage with a sword of any kind is not by making swipes with it, but rather by stabbing. That way any damage dealt is always inflicted to the internal organs and the potential for hemorrhage is much higher, not to mention much more difficult to fix by surgery.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*Adopts the drawl of Marcellus*

"The red zones are instant wins: here," *daubs Spartacus's throat*, "here and here," *daubs Spartacus's solar plexus and lower abdomen ...

[FFSOMGLOLOLOL]

p.s

 

hydrostatic shock has been disproved. although ammunition manufacturers are still wrongly using the term to market their products.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My bad. However there is still a direct relation between muzzle velocity and tissue damage:

 

Q: What about hydrostatic shock effect and energy transfer with my handgun?

A: Neither has been found to have anything to do with a handgun bullets ability to incapacitate an attacker What you are asking about is the pressure wave in the wound; the passage of a bullet in tissue produces a small kind of pressure wave, which is really just the tissue (not fluid/hydrostatic) being pushed aside by the bullet. Since the bullet is moving rapidly, the tissue is pushed aside rather strongly in all cases. The force involved is proportional to the bullet drag; if the bullet expands or tumbles, the cross-sectional area perpendicular to the flow is large, making "high drag". A fragmenting bullet has the highest "effective drag", even though the detailed mechanism is not as intuitive. This whole process is related to the temporary cavity; all other things being equal (bullet energy is the most important); the largest drag will produce the largest temporary cavity. A bullet that does not expand or tumble has low drag and a small temporary cavity. Until we get into the 2,000fps range the pressure wave that is created is very brief and very small.

 

Q. Then why do water jugs rupture when I shoot them with my (brand X -shock) handgun ammo?

A. There is no such thing or phenomena as hydrostatic shock. The effects that are reproduced in ordnance gelatin are the results of the pressure wave in the wound; the passage of a bullet in tissue produces a small kind of pressure wave, which is really just the tissue (not fluid/hydrostatic) being pushed aside by the bullet. The water bottles rupture because the plastic containing the water is not elastic in nature, it cannot therefore stretch accordingly to contain the pressure wave created by the bullet impact and it is not of sufficient strength for the load generated. Damage to hard objects does not necessarily equate to damage to soft tissue. A sand blast that has no effect on the palm of your hand will go right through your fingernail. The reason is that even a small deformation of a hard object will likely cause damage, while soft tissue can deform a lot with little effect. The temporary cavities of ordinary handgun bullets are too small to be significant wounding mechanisms, even though the bullets can break up hard objects quickly. Conversely this is why we can place the same volume of water in a steel test tank and fire even .50BMG loadings into that tank and the water does not rupture the tank.

 

Ender ain't gonna be happy about us gun nuts spamming his thread... "

 

 

I've read in various places that the advantages of bladed weapons in VtM are just there for thematic purposes, with any pseudoscientific "tissue loss" explanations being rationalizations. Really, even the most realistic RPGs (GURPS, for example) severely tone down realistic automatic weapons. A super-strong vampire using a realistic machine gun designed to be "vampire portable" with a 30kg gun and 80kg of amunition could probably turn a dinosaur into gibbets of meat in fifteen seconds of fire (and be 20kg lighter).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with that and that's why firearms do less damage per norm than melee weapons. But with a str+5 katana, the imbalance can get out of hand. Not only that, last time I checked, they didn't sell F-16 vulcan cannons at the local drugstore, while a katana is significantly easier to come by.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Ender ain't gonna be happy about us gun nuts spamming his thread...  "

 

 

Im not a gun nut, I dont know anything about firearms. :ph34r:

 

 

now here you can see the ballistic wound profile or an ordinary 12-gauge shotgun shell

 

 

as you can see, the tissue damage is enormous. Compare it to this picture of the damage profile of an ordinary .45 bullet

 

 

 

In terms of tissue damage(what would actually damage a vamp) we can clearly see that there is simply no doubt that the shotgun has about 10 times the damage capacity of a single pistol slug. A hyeavier caliber bullet such as a .50AE would only do marginally more damage than the .45

[FFSOMGLOLOLOL]

In terms of tissue damage(what would actually damage a vamp) we can clearly see that there is simply no doubt that the shotgun has about 10 times the damage capacity of a single pistol slug. A hyeavier caliber bullet such as a .50AE would only do marginally more damage than the .45

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I never argued that shotguns should do less or equal damage than pistols. They are much more efficient against unarmored targets, after all.

 

Regarding your pics, though, .45 ACP is not considered big bore, whereas .50 AE and .500 S&W are often regarded as hunting ammo, suitable for taking down even elephants. In the pic you posted, it states that the velocity of the bullet is 869 f/s, while .50 AE has a muzzle velocity of ~1400 f/s, which nearly doubles it. The .500 S&W has an even higher muzzle velocity, both with significantly heavier projectiles than .45 ACP. Furthermore, that pic is of a FMJ bullet, while JHP or JSP would have caused much greater trauma due to deformation and/or fragmentation of the projectile upon impact.

 

In terms of energy delivery, the difference is very little, and considering that the rules in VtM don't take into consideration how quickly the effectiveness of shotguns decreases with range, I think it's a fair exchange.

[EnderAndrew]

I don't care for guns, but I learned about them a bit in the Marine Corps. Certain types of ammunition, and certain types of guns are designed for bullets to ricochet, or explode after initial impact. That is why they can cause such problems.

 

True, Vampires don't have internal organs, and thusly normal bullets do bashing damage, which is immediately halfed. So if you do 6 bashing wounds, you only really did 3 to a Vampire. Thusly, guns without special ammo really aren't that effective against vamps.

 

M16's are military grade weapons though I do believe there is a commercial rip-off called the Bushman's Anniversary Special or something like that. Carrying those around a city is likely to get you MORE attention than carrying a greatsword.

 

As far as Ravnos go, I don't know that anyone in-character knows that we have a Ravnos. Secondly, in the official meta-plot, most of the Ravnos were killed, not all of them. I don't suspect most of you have in-character knowledge of whether or not that event happened in our universe unless you vamp is knowledgeable and been around a while. At the moment I can think of perhaps 2 player characters who might know.

[Kaftan Barlast]

Does it count if he told you in the freeform chat? He told me and the other guy whose identity remains unknown because I didnt know who was who at the time. Anyway he told me and then he said I could sleep in his Winnebago but I was going to say no because maybe that could hurt Val's image but then the conversation kind of died off and then I dont know. But I think I know.

[EnderAndrew]

If you have been told in-character, then you have been told in-character. I'll try to email all the players this week and perhaps clarify given the background how much said characters might know in-character.

[Calax]

I'm technically not in the Game Ender. I just posted because the game and WOD interest me.

[EnderAndrew]

Check the first post! The new log has been posted!

[Child of Flame]

I won't be available next session. I'm gonna be in the mountains backpacking with my Church. I'm sorry guys, the ladies needed me.

[Archmonarch]

A question: Why is my quit message in what I can only assume is Portuguese?

[213374U]

A question: Why is my quit message in what I can only assume is Portuguese?

Because that's the log I made. And it's Spanish, not Portuguese.

[Kaftan Barlast]

I won't be available next session.  I'm gonna be in the mountains backpacking with my Church.  I'm sorry guys, the ladies needed me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Are you like the main character in Tenessee Williams "Night of the Iguana"? :D

 

 

(my quit message says "I have four dots in bukkakke")