Kotor 3: Ideas and Suggestions

[alanschu]

First off, I would give the PC control of Revan at level 50, and let him kill hordes of uber-baddies, because killing hordes of really powerful badguys makes the badguys seem more unique and powerful in their own right.

 

 

On a serious note, give me a second to collect my thoughts :D

[EnderAndrew]

Why stop at level 50?

 

Final Fantasy games sometimes cap at level 99!

[alanschu]

Why stop at level 50?

 

Final Fantasy games sometimes cap at level 99!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

No no no, he'd just START at level 50.

 

You need to have levelling up to 99 though, since that would be 49 levels gained, which means it'd be a r0x0ring RPG!

[EnderAndrew]

Bioware is stealing your idea as you type it!

 

KOTOR:3000 - Revan Stikes Back (for 9999 damage!)

[alanschu]

Something I was thinking of along the lines was a specific, Master Student relationship. In fact, I was even considering the idea that the game be in situations where you have only a party of two, you and your Master.

 

 

A bit of this is ad hoc (since I haven't thought too much about it), so bear with me :D

 

Some of the stuff will probably be borrowed from you, since I liked some of your ideas.

 

Initially, I was thinking of the idea that the Republic was slowly starting to build, and small collections of Jedi are regrouping and trying to rebuild the Jedi Order. As a force sensitive, you are recruited into the Order to begin your training. (In fact, the tutorial would likely have been similar to the lines of Llyranor's idea of learning about the character and whatnot at the beginning). The first few levels would be getting acquainted with your responsibility as a Jedi, where you go with your Master performing "Jedi stuff" not perhaps too different from Jedi Academy. Performing missions and trying to rebuild the trust in the Jedi and whatnot.

 

However, the realities of the aftermath of Revan's and Exile's adventures would eventually catch up with you, starting off with your first encounter of a Sith. This first confrontation would be the first encounter with the "propaganda" of the Dark Side. Events would ultimately lead to learning about the legend of Revan and the Exile. (This is the farthest I've really thought about up until now, so the rest of the stuff is new based on this discussion and whatnot).

 

 

First off, I liked the idea of being trained by the Sith. So I'll give the player a bit of a choice. Start the character off not as a Jedi, but just as the Soldier/Scout/Scoundrel like in KOTOR. Relatively early in the game, something (I'm not a stickler for the details :D) happens that makes you learn that you are strong with the Force. I was thinking perhaps having the initial adventures having the PC learn that two of his acquaintances are strong in the Force...with one being a Jedi and the other a Sith. Basically the two get involved in a stalemate, and the PC must choose who lives and who dies. The one that lives recognizes that the PC is Force Sensitive, and brings the PC to the respective "Academy" to petition for your training (which of course gets accepted).

 

I like how this could work, because based on your choices for how the Exile turned out, the encounters with the Exile's apprentice can be varied, based on whether Exile is LS/DS and whether you joined the Jedi/Sith. Naturally, you wouldn't be restricted by your initial choice, as both sides will teach you the dogmatic view of their side.

 

And instead of the game taking off with the first encounter with a Sith in my initial idea, but with the first encounter with a Force Sensitive of the opposite type (if you go Sith, then you meet with Jedi). This introduces the first real perspective of the "other side" to the PC.

 

Perhaps because of this encounter, you are given your title of Jedi Knight (much like how Luke wouldn't be a Jedi until he faced Vader) or the Sith equivalent. Basically, this is when you shed your master, and are given a mission that will basically result in you looking for Revan/Exile. At this point, it might be neat to introduce the idea of "separating parties" by allowing the player to, at times, take control of the PC's old master.

 

 

Note: Just thought of this now, but I think it might be neat that, if the PC chooses the same side as the Exile's student, then perhaps Atton/Handmaiden becomes the character's Master. If they are on opposite sides, then Atton/Handmaiden would play the primary antagonists for the middle of the game.

 

In both cases, there is a character that will be the master of the opposite side of Atton/Handmaiden. If you are trained by Atton/Handmaiden, then this character is the antagonist. If you aren't trained by Atton/Handmaiden, this character is your Master.

 

I think this would be neat, because it would give the player some flexibility in who their opponents would be. Those that hated Atton/Handmaiden can go with the other guys :D Also, given that you play your Master, it will allow you to create a 'Master vs Apprentice' point in the game, if one of them changes alignment over the course of the game. I think this might have its merits because I know many people were upset that Bastila turned to the Dark Side no matter what. So if the player was dead set against the Master turning, it wouldn't be forced upon him if he didn't want to.

 

 

I suppose this would be difficult to implement though, as I don't think it's hard to see that I value variety and choice

 

 

In any case, commence the tomato-tossing....I can take it :D

[EnderAndrew]

Would Visas stand opposite of Handmaiden perhaps?

[alanschu]

I wasn't thinking of that, but it would certainly be interesting!

 

Same with Disciple vs Atton.

 

 

This would let the people side with their favourites from KOTOR 2.

 

 

And perhaps, during the "what happened last game" type dialogues, you can say which one is officially the student (i.e. the Romantic Interest) of the Exile, and then determine the Exile's alignment, so then that Romantic Interest follow's the Exile's alignment, and perhaps out of bitterness or whatever the other romantic interest is your master on the other side.

 

 

Noteably apperances by Mira, Bao-Dur and whatnot would also appear. Although I'd suspect they should only be of the same alignment as Exile.

[EnderAndrew]

I think your concept works really well to establish the PC early on, but it doesn't seem to get into major meta-plot, or answering all the questions from the previous two games.

 

I think we need both. We need to establish a good strong PC with their own story, and yet answer the questions left over from the first two games.

[alanschu]

Yes, my idea pretty much stops at midgame. It's more unfinished than "not" getting into those points.

 

I just briefly mentioned it when, at the point that you are no longer following your master on every mission, your task is to investigate Revan/Exile. (look closely, it IS in there )

 

In fact this task would make more sense seeing as one of your masters would be an old party member. But I haven't really any solutions though.

 

Once the PC is exposed to the differences between light and dark after he loses his master is when the journey to answer the questions from KOTOR1/2 would probably begin IMO.

 

How it it would work though, I'm not so sure. Have any ideas on how to expand the concept I laid out to include relating it back to KOTOR 1/2?

 

 

 

EDIT:

Perhaps because of this encounter, you are given your title of Jedi Knight (much like how Luke wouldn't be a Jedi until he faced Vader) or the Sith equivalent. Basically, this is when you shed your master, and are given a mission that will basically result in you looking for Revan/Exile. At this point, it might be neat to introduce the idea of "separating parties" by allowing the player to, at times, take control of the PC's old master.

 

See see, it existed! :D

 

The PC's old master of course takes part in the investigation, from a different vantage point.

[EnderAndrew]

Well the six million dollar question is what ultimatlely leads you back to them and their quest for the True Sith?

[alanschu]

It would lie somewhere between when the PC and his master start their search for Revan/Exile, and the end of the game I suppose

 

 

The primary motivation would probably be the Master (and any other old friends of Revan's and Exile's), since the Master would likely have some sort of concern with what is happening out there. Perhaps the reason why your training was allowed was specifically because your Master wanted someone that he could influence (i.e. because you're new and impressionable, yet old enough to be capable) and convince to help him search for Revan/Exile.

 

 

Just a start, but what do you think?

[EnderAndrew]

Not too shabby. I think it odd that I was more focused on the ending, and you more so on the origin. Wonder Twins Power Combine!

[alanschu]

Hahaha I agree.

 

I'll take care of all the details at the beginning, and try not to make it too hard for you to wrap it up for a coherent ending :D

 

 

EDIT:

 

I think it's because I like the lower level adventures and whatnot, and I'm fascinated with what it must be like for a young Padawan to learn to deal with and confront the pressures of the Darkside.

[EnderAndrew]

So who writes the middle?

[alanschu]

The middle writes itself!

 

I mean, if you have a killer ending and I have a killer beginning, all we need in the middle is some Fed Ex quests and a few lightsaber crystals. Maybe the odd cameo by a previous KOTOR NPC.

 

Nobody remembers the middle, but they need the beginning to catch the interest, and they need the end so that they go "Damn, that was cool!" when they're done playing.

 

It's just like writing an essay.

[EnderAndrew]

Darque is a writer. She can write the middle.

[alanschu]

Need to direct her attention to this thread somehow <_<

[EnderAndrew]

Send her a PM. Tell her that Feargus announced that Project New Jersey is either going to be 7th Sea or Shadowrun and we need her input to decide.

[alanschu]

Send her a PM.  Tell her that Feargus announced that Project New Jersey is either going to be 7th Sea or Shadowrun and we need her input to decide.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I think I may have baited her!

 

Try here

 

Muahahaha.

 

 

:alanschu:

[EnderAndrew]

Alans Chu strikes again!

[Jediphile]

First off, I liked the idea of being trained by the Sith.  So I'll give the player a bit of a choice.  Start the character off not as a Jedi, but just as the Soldier/Scout/Scoundrel like in KOTOR.  Relatively early in the game, something (I'm not a stickler for the details :D) happens that makes you learn that you are strong with the Force.  I was thinking perhaps having the initial adventures having the PC learn that two of his acquaintances are strong in the Force...with one being a Jedi and the other a Sith.  Basically the two get involved in a stalemate, and the PC must choose who lives and who dies.  The one that lives recognizes that the PC is Force Sensitive, and brings the PC to the respective "Academy" to petition for your training (which of course gets accepted).

(snip ideas)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

While I think this works well on the level of options for the PC, it has the big problem of next to no plot. And what's more troubling is that if you're going to allow that much diversity for player choices so early in the game, then the overall plot of the game will inevitably suffer as a result. KotOR games tend to quite linear and give very little genuine choice to the player. Usually the light/dark choices are limited to very few and isolated quests and not the overall plot. The final LS/DS choice comes very late and usually has little influence on how things will play out - in KotOR2 it almost didn't matter at all.

 

And when we consider that the game will have only a certain amount of man-hours devoted to it among programmers/writers/whomever, it becomes very clear that you can have either rich plot or many options, but not both, since doing a lot of one would reduce the amount of work that can be done on the other. KotOR games have so far prioritized plot over options, and personally I don't want that to change. If anything, I'd prefer richer and more interesting plot even over the loss of options. I play KotOR to see what happens in the story, not to have a gazillion options open to me. This is where they erred in the X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter game - they cut the missions, but you could play however you wanted. X-Wing Alliance had very linear plot in the next game because felt no progress or connection to a character in X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter. This might isn't the same, but the plot will still suffer as a result.

 

This is also why I don't voice support of more color for lightsabers, robes with hood, or better graphics. I don't mind, but I don't want to see the devs sacrifice plot focus as a result.

[Laozi]

While I think this works well on the level of options for the PC, it has the big problem of next to no plot. And what's more troubling is that if you're going to allow that much diversity for player choices so early in the game, then the overall plot of the game will inevitably suffer as a result. KotOR games tend to quite linear and give very little genuine choice to the player. Usually the light/dark choices are limited to very few and isolated quests and not the overall plot. The final LS/DS choice comes very late and usually has little influence on how things will play out - in KotOR2 it almost didn't matter at all.

 

And when we consider that the game will have only a certain amount of man-hours devoted to it among programmers/writers/whomever, it becomes very clear that you can have either rich plot or many options, but not both, since doing a lot of one would reduce the amount of work that can be done on the other. KotOR games have so far prioritized plot over options, and personally I don't want that to change. If anything, I'd prefer richer and more interesting plot even over the loss of options. I play KotOR to see what happens in the story, not to have a gazillion options open to me. This is where they erred in the X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter game - they cut the missions, but you could play however you wanted. X-Wing Alliance had very linear plot in the next game because felt no progress or connection to a character in X-Wing vs. Tie Fighter. This might isn't the same, but the plot will still suffer as a result.

 

This is also why I don't voice support of more color for lightsabers, robes with hood, or better graphics. I don't mind, but I don't want to see the devs sacrifice plot focus as a result.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Ya, but you seem to think the "True Sith" idea has weight...........

[Calax]

I still would like to see the overall tone change in terms of the republic. In the first two games it was teetering on the edge of collapsing into civil war (ok in #1 they were in a civil war). It seemed like the only thing holding the "barbarians at the gates", so to speak, is a single jedi. I would like to see things take a brighter tone for the third.

[metadigital]

...

The new PC steps in and decides to head up one group in his/her new ship, and presumably the Exile's student (Disciple/Handmaiden) has inherited the Ebon Hawk and will lead the second team.

 

Personally, I would like to see the new PC be a former Sith.  Since they are hunting down the true Sith, a former Sith may provide necessary perspective, and may be necessary to hunt Revan and the Exile down. ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would like to have a young non-Jedi character, yes. The discovery of Force adept would perhaps have been known, just not the extent. Perhaps the PC has been "self-training" through self-awareness, and has therefore learned differently to both Sith and Jedi.

...

One group is looking for scattered Jedi to try and rebuild the Council, while the other ship heads to Sith worlds looking for teachings on the True Sith.

 

My take is that the Traya Academy is a testament of True Sith, as they master all three facets of being a Sith.  They know pain, hunger and betrayal.  A True Sith masters all three.  As a Jedi or Sith you learn to identify and combat these, or master these.  They then look for a world touched by all three. ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think Christian mythology is a rich vein for tapping.

I thought there were seven demons.

Lucifer = Highest Archangel motivated by Pride = heosphoros, "morning star" or "Day Star," literally "bringer of the Dawn = Greek star-myth of Pha

[metadigital]

Something I was thinking of along the lines was a specific, Master Student relationship.  In fact, I was even considering the idea that the game be in situations where you have only a party of two, you and your Master.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I like this.

...

First off, I liked the idea of being trained by the Sith.  So I'll give the player a bit of a choice.  Start the character off not as a Jedi, but just as the Soldier/Scout/Scoundrel like in KOTOR.  Relatively early in the game, something (I'm not a stickler for the details :D) happens that makes you learn that you are strong with the Force.  I was thinking perhaps having the initial adventures having the PC learn that two of his acquaintances are strong in the Force...with one being a Jedi and the other a Sith.  Basically the two get involved in a stalemate, and the PC must choose who lives and who dies.  The one that lives recognizes that the PC is Force Sensitive, and brings the PC to the respective "Academy" to petition for your training (which of course gets accepted). ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is good, but needs some work. Maybe shorten it to a conversation and a single combat encounter, where the PC must choose (and then it can be made more difficult, like the dialogue options in K2, where it is not trivial to choose light or dark: that way people are more inclined to role-play).

...

I like how this could work, because based on your choices for how the Exile turned out, the encounters with the Exile's apprentice can be varied, based on whether Exile is LS/DS and whether you joined the Jedi/Sith.  Naturally, you wouldn't be restricted by your initial choice, as both sides will teach you the dogmatic view of their side. ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Again this is good.

 

I want to have some sort of event that the rules quoted in the films, four thousand -- twenty generations later -- are based on. Specifically, I want the adult Jedi from K2 to go off and do some sort of self-indulgent power tripping / fall to the Dark Side (assuming they were light side)/ whatever. This gives some continuity with the films (that was lost with K2, even after being re-iterated in K1!) and reverses all (most) of the "instant" Jedi created in K2.

...

And instead of the game taking off with the first encounter with a Sith in my initial idea, but with the first encounter with a Force Sensitive of the opposite type (if you go Sith, then you meet with Jedi).  This introduces the first real perspective of the "other side" to the PC.

 

Perhaps because of this encounter, you are given your title of Jedi Knight (much like how Luke wouldn't be a Jedi until he faced Vader) or the Sith equivalent.  ...

Note: Just thought of this now, but I think it might be neat that, if the PC chooses the same side as the Exile's student, then perhaps Atton/Handmaiden becomes the character's Master.  If they are on opposite sides, then Atton/Handmaiden would play the primary antagonists for the middle of the game. 

 

In both cases, there is a character that will be the master of the opposite side of Atton/Handmaiden.  If you are trained by Atton/Handmaiden, then this character is the antagonist.  If you aren't trained by Atton/Handmaiden, this character is your Master. ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, that's a nice way to provide some replayability.

...

I think this would be neat, because it would give the player some flexibility in who their opponents would be.  Those that hated Atton/Handmaiden can go with the other guys :D  Also, given that you play your Master, it will allow you to create a 'Master vs Apprentice' point in the game, if one of them changes alignment over the course of the game.  I think this might have its merits because I know many people were upset that Bastila turned to the Dark Side no matter what.  So if the player was dead set against the Master turning, it wouldn't be forced upon him if he didn't want to. ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would go further with this idea, too.

 

I see that there should be a Renaissance, or a Reformation; the Light Side needs to deal with this denial of the emotional being, by learning from the Dark Side, and acknowledging the emotions and dealing with them, rather than repressing them. This could be the theme of K3, neatly tying up the three games, as the True Sith (or whatever is out beyond the Outer Rim) are effectively a fresh source of information that can be used to re-invigorate the teachings of the Jedi in much the same way as Christian scholars gained so much from the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, for example.