Was Kreia Evil?

[hearts inferno]

Kreia is Neutral (greyside) for the soul reason whenever you do something really good she bitches and when you do something really evil she still bitches. You just carn't win.

[Dark Moth]

Another thing I couldn't understand is the whole "he fell to the darkside because he had to" theme. Anyone who knows war knows that civil war always WEAKENS the nation that is fighting. If Revan truly wanted to strengthen the Republic, he would have shared his knowledge of the Star Forge to help them. Instead, he decides to conquer the Republic, which only weakened it.

 

Now, if Revan wanted to build a new empire to conquer the true Sith empire out of his lust for power, that would have been more believable. But to fall to the darkside and fight the Republic just to save it doesn't make sense.

 

Besides, the "falling to the darkside because he had to" theme makes it look like the lightside can't defeat the darkside, which is the opposite of what KOTOR I taught. If that were true, then would Jedi like Luke Skywalker, Yoda, or Mace Windu be so powerful? Definitely not. Don't forget, Mace Windu OWNED Darth Sidious in the lightsaber duel. (unless Sidious was holding back) But Yoda kicks ass, one way or another.

[GhostofAnakin]

Another thing I couldn't understand is the whole "he fell to the darkside because he had to" theme.  Anyone who knows war knows that civil war always WEAKENS the nation that is fighting.  If Revan truly wanted to strengthen the Republic, he would have shared his knowledge of the Star Forge to help them.  Instead, he decides to conquer the Republic, which only weakened it. 

 

Now, if Revan wanted to build a new empire to conquer the true Sith empire out of his lust for power, that would have been more believable.  But to fall to the darkside and fight the Republic just to save it doesn't make sense. 

 

Besides, the "falling to the darkside because he had to" theme makes it look like the lightside can't defeat the darkside, which is the opposite of what KOTOR I taught.  If that were true, then would Jedi like Luke Skywalker, Yoda, or Mace Windu be so powerful?  Definitely not.  Don't forget, Mace Windu OWNED Darth Sidious in the lightsaber duel.  (unless Sidious was holding back)  But Yoda kicks ass, one way or another.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What that implied to me was that Revan "fell to the Darkside" to stir the Republic into action. He felt that they were too stagnant and wouldn't be able to gather their forces when this "real threat" came calling.

 

To use an analogy, it's like trying to light a fire under a lazy athlete to get him to work. Or to poke a bear to get him angry. Revan "poked" the Republic into action and into preparation for the Real Sith.

[kalimeeri]

Another thing I couldn't understand is the whole "he fell to the darkside because he had to" theme.  Anyone who knows war knows that civil war always WEAKENS the nation that is fighting.  If Revan truly wanted to strengthen the Republic, he would have shared his knowledge of the Star Forge to help them.  Instead, he decides to conquer the Republic, which only weakened it. 

 

He wanted to destroy the power structure within the Republic, not the Republic itself. It was doing more harm than good. Share something as powerful as the Star Forge with people who already enjoy their influence too much?

[Dark Moth]

Another thing I couldn't understand is the whole "he fell to the darkside because he had to" theme.  Anyone who knows war knows that civil war always WEAKENS the nation that is fighting.  If Revan truly wanted to strengthen the Republic, he would have shared his knowledge of the Star Forge to help them.  Instead, he decides to conquer the Republic, which only weakened it. 

 

Now, if Revan wanted to build a new empire to conquer the true Sith empire out of his lust for power, that would have been more believable.  But to fall to the darkside and fight the Republic just to save it doesn't make sense. 

 

Besides, the "falling to the darkside because he had to" theme makes it look like the lightside can't defeat the darkside, which is the opposite of what KOTOR I taught.  If that were true, then would Jedi like Luke Skywalker, Yoda, or Mace Windu be so powerful?  Definitely not.  Don't forget, Mace Windu OWNED Darth Sidious in the lightsaber duel.  (unless Sidious was holding back)  But Yoda kicks ass, one way or another.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What that implied to me was that Revan "fell to the Darkside" to stir the Republic into action. He felt that they were too stagnant and wouldn't be able to gather their forces when this "real threat" came calling.

 

To use an analogy, it's like trying to light a fire under a lazy athlete to get him to work. Or to poke a bear to get him angry. Revan "poked" the Republic into action and into preparation for the Real Sith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe. But still, if he truly wanted to help it, he might have exposed the True Sith empire to them instead. Who knows, that might have gotten them acting. It's still hard to tell though, I admit. Damn you, Chris Avellone!

[SteveThaiBinh]

Maybe.  But still, if he truly wanted to help it, he might have exposed the True Sith empire to them instead.  Who knows, that might have gotten them acting.  It's still hard to tell though, I admit.  Damn you, Chris Avellone!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The fact that in the Exile's time, ten years later, the True Sith still haven't arrived, suggests that Revan either made a huge miscalculation or was just plain evil. Ten years is enough even for the Jedi Council to investigate, deliberate and get its act together.

[Weaponmaster303]

10 years is not enough time for a council as dumb as the one in k2.

[Flyboi]

Voted evil.

 

I will most certainly not accept her as being neutral as she claims to be. The whole concept of manipulating/controlling people for the greater good is basicly the moral/religious tale of human history.

 

I will judge her by her actions over her intentions. I will never accept that not helping someone who needs it will serve a greater good. The way you aid people in a game is however somewhat simplified (e.g. rather give a man a fishing rod than a fish concept) but would be too complicated to implement.

 

And no I do not believe the force is "misbehaving" and controlling people. That has never been the concept of the force and seems more like a clever "game-playing-idea".

 

[kalimeeri]

The fact that in the Exile's time, ten years later, the True Sith still haven't arrived, suggests that Revan either made a huge miscalculation or was just plain evil.  Ten years is enough even for the Jedi Council to investigate, deliberate and get its act together.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wasn't TSL set only five years after K1? I think Kreia or somebody also said that after the fight with Malak, Revan did some more traveling and investigating, so has been gone four years at most.

 

The Council acted, all right--they went into hiding. They didn't have a clue; they couldn't detect Nihilus, and if they had run up against him, they would have used their standard Jedi combat and died. He was just one guy, using an ancient Sith technique. The Republic galaxy wasn't going to change, and it wasn't going to survive unless something drastic was done.

[RevanRedefined]

Who was the one person who said she was good? o_O;;

[Frosty_V2.1]

He wanted to destroy the power structure within the Republic, not the Republic itself. It was doing more harm than good. Share something as powerful as the Star Forge with people who already enjoy their influence too much?

Yea, it's always those corrupt and indecisive politicians that mess things up ... oh yea, and pesky Jedi

 

Although I think there's a bit of a schism between KotOR and TSL plots the idea that Revan was trying to unite the galaxy under him/her, with him at it's head works for me.

Getting all the politicking under control would be half the battle but with that out of the way there'd be clearer lines of control and quick, decisive actions could be carried out (Him being head (Sith) Honcho and all).

 

From there well, who knows, but I think it ties in pretty well with the general SW Universe, very Thrawn-esque if you ask me.

[Dark Moth]

10 years is not enough time for a council as dumb as the one in k2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I kinda agree with you there. While the council in K1 was a tad dull, the one in K2 was just plain retarded! I mean, the developers really dumbed them down in KOTOR II. Thank god the council wasn't that dumb in the movies.

Still, ten years does seem like too long a time. However, it made sense that the Jedi were hiding. They had a new enemy of which they knew nothing, so the best thing to do would wait. What ticked me off was that they didn't even try to fight the Sith or find out more about them! Even in the end, when you confront all three as a ls exile, they still want to wait! Sheesh. <_<

 

One thing I really loved was how as a LS exile the Jedi Masters you meet have a sypmathetic attitude toward you. Even Vrook says eventually that he may have misjudged you (that's as nice as he gets). In the end, however, when they all meat up, they're all like: "Yeah, you're a wound in the force. We gotta cut you off again. Oh, and you're still an exile." Complete betrayal. :angry: It actually made me happy when Kreia killed them.

 

I think this all stems from the fact that the developers tried to make the Jedi less good and the Sith less evil. The basic lesson of K2 was that good or evil, your choices don't matter, because you'll accomplish the same thing. <_< Once again, just the opposite of K1. But yeah, the council was dumb.

 

And back to Kreia, did you also notice that as a DS Kreia says that she didn't want to see the Jedi council killed, yet as a LS Kreia kills them herself. There's the old Kreia contradiction, again. And who were the schuttas who voted good?! (JK)

[Darkside]

And back to Kreia, did you also notice that as a DS Kreia says that she didn't want to see the Jedi council killed, yet as a LS Kreia kills them herself.    There's the old Kreia contradiction, again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Kriea didn't want them dead, but she couldn't let them strip the Exile of the Force, not after all her work. And she didn't simply "kill" them, she made them see death and the Force the way the Exile did on Malachor 5. They simply weren't able to make the choice the Exile did so the pain overwhelmed them. The Exile came close to the same death on Malachor, but was able to save themself by cutting themself from the Force.

[Weaponmaster303]

Though it makes sense the council was dumb really dumb.10 years and never once did the even realize what the threat was.Then when they had the chance to strike back with the exile one strong in the force even if not directly they blow it all away by making kreia mad.The council was arrogant and was always afraid of change.Thats why they feared revan and why the feared the exile.Yet the exile never did anything to warrant that fear.He stabilized the republic and never killed another just to gain strenght if you are ls.

[Dark Moth]

And back to Kreia, did you also notice that as a DS Kreia says that she didn't want to see the Jedi council killed, yet as a LS Kreia kills them herself.    There's the old Kreia contradiction, again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Kriea didn't want them dead, but she couldn't let them strip the Exile of the Force, not after all her work. And she didn't simply "kill" them, she made them see death and the Force the way the Exile did on Malachor 5. They simply weren't able to make the choice the Exile did so the pain overwhelmed them. The Exile came close to the same death on Malachor, but was able to save themself by cutting themself from the Force.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe, but it's kind of ambiguous. :"> Like about a hundred other things, K2 never really explained it. But yes, I can see your reasoning there.

 

Though it makes sense the council was dumb really dumb.10 years and never once did the even realize what the threat was.Then when they had the chance to strike back with the exile one strong in the force even if not directly they blow it all away by making kreia mad.The council was arrogant and was always afraid of change.Thats why they feared revan and why the feared the exile.Yet the exile never did anything to warrant that fear.He stabilized the republic and never killed another just to gain strenght if you are ls.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My point exactly. Even after all the exile had done (as a LS) the council still tried to cut him off from the force, mostly because they were afraid of him.

 

I must say that the council in K1 was a heck of a lot wiser and a lot less arrogant than the one in K2. I didn't like the way K2 changed them into a band of bumbling idiots.

 

Then again, perhaps the Jedi would have known the threat if Revan had told them instead of trying to kill/convert them.

[Weaponmaster303]

Vrook has alwasy been arrogant. Remeber he was opposed to training revan in k1 to.The only jedi masters ive liked are zhar,vandar, and dorak who i believe knew what had to be done and how the world really worked.

[Dark Moth]

Vrook has alwasy been arrogant. Remeber he was opposed to training revan in k1 to.The only jedi masters ive liked are zhar,vandar, and dorak who i believe knew what had to be done and how the world really worked.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, I doubt you'll find many people who actually like Vrook. I hated the stodgy Jedi myself. But still, as a whole, I think the council you saw in K1 was wiser and less arrogant. But of course, K2 kills them off and leaves us with the bottom of the barrell.

[Weaponmaster303]

I think k2 is trying to show the revival of the jedi acceptance remember all your party members are accepting of you cuz they know the real you.

[dufflover]

I said Evil - maybe not classic blood thirsty power hungry Sith evil but still DS nevertheless. (for all the various reasons above) but the blatantly obvious one is she wants to destroy/kill the force is obviously some crazy old coot.

 

Kreia is a long long way from Jolee, so I don't see how they can both be neutral.

[Dark Moth]

I said Evil - maybe not classic blood thirsty power hungry Sith evil but still DS nevertheless. (for all the various reasons above) but the blatantly obvious one is she wants to destroy/kill the force is obviously some crazy old coot.

 

Kreia is a long long way from Jolee, so I don't see how they can both be neutral.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, I think Jolee was very lightside. And he was very wise. Too bad he wasn't a council member. Just because he wasn't a member of the Jedi order doesn't mean he was neutral. Light/darkside is a description of your character. Kreia was more "Darth Sidious" evil than "Darth Malak" evil. A clever manipulator instead of a rampaging brute.

[Weaponmaster303]

I never understood why jolee was neutral.When revan tries to turn him he refuses instead of looking at things and reflecting which is what neutral characters would of done.

[Dark Moth]

Which is one reason (among others) why I think he was lightside, despite what he said. He sides with you as a LS and tries to kill you as a DS. A truly neutral person would have stood by and watched.

[dufflover]

Actually, I think Jolee was very lightside.   

I agree that Jolee was definitely LS but well...he wasn't in the game. I think this is distinction though that people have to make. Jolee's beliefs sit in the gray region, yet he is obviously LS in values and stuff like that. Kreia is neutral in that she is not a Jedi or a typical Sith, but her actions and motives are clearly DS.

[ncr]

Kreia is DS because she doesn't care who she has to hurt to get what she wants. I think Jolee starts out as sort of lost. But you can direct him back to "clarity"(LS) if you so choose.

[Petay]

Its pretty obvious that Jolee is LS, he wants to get those Czerka people off that site near him, and they are always evil and yeah he fights you when you are DS and agrees with you when you are LS.

 

But Kreia is totally a different matter really, because as said earlier, she berates you for killing someone for no reason, but says nothing when you kill someone to benefit yourself, which is obviously evil. Therefore she is evil, but not in the way that she wants to kill everyone, more manipulative way.