Kotor 3: Ideas and Suggestions

[Dark Moth]

Before I go, I'm just going to say this in a civilized manner. I think ShadowPaladin is right when he says writing has no grabbing value. The audience who plays games is different from the audience who reads books. Book readers tend to look for good writing, gamers tend to look for other things - such as graphics, gameplay, etc.

 

Just look at Halo. It is not the best written, and the story isn't that deep (especially in the first one) but it is a VERY popular game. Why? Many things: gameplay, graphics, overall experience, and of course being able to kill and blow up things, but writing isn't one of them.

 

What ShadowPaladin is saying is that writing isn't what attracts gamers to games in the first place, it's the other things. Those are the things that grab attention before the game is played. Writing is something that's only looked at after the game is purchased and played. KOTOR is a good example. You are right, Metadigital, when you say that writing is important, but you must realize that it is not what most gamers look for. Writing is more of an icing that adds to the flavor of the game once it is actually played, not really an attention grabber.

[metadigital]

Writing still has no grab value. If you can demonstrate otherwise please do. I'm quite interested since I'm a story fan, albeit one who is tempered with a healthy does of realism about what sells games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't know what that means.

 

Let me point out the inconsistency for you. Writing has "no grab value", yet you are "a story person".

 

If writing has no "grab value" (sic), then you would hardly be looking for it, now would you?

[metadigital]

Before I go, I'm just going to say this in a civilized manner.  I think ShadowPaladin is right when he says writing has no grabbing value.  The audience who plays games is different from the audience who reads books.  Book readers tend to look for good writing, gamers tend to look for other things - such as graphics, gameplay, etc. 

 

What ShadowPaladin is saying is that writing isn't what attracts gamers to games in the first place, it's the other things.  Those are the things that grab attention before the game is played.  Writing is something that's only looked at after the game is purchased and played.  KOTOR is a good example.  You are right, Metadigital, when you say that writing is important, but you must realize that it is not what most gamers look for.  Writing is more of an icing that adds to the flavor of the game once it is actually played, not really an attention grabber.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And I would, in a civilzed manner, point out that you don't appear to have grasped the importance of writing, nor the fundamental aspect it plays in a narrative-based entertainment medium, like a game.

 

Let's try a quick test. Take away the story. All of it. So what do you have left? A big open are where you can interact with only unscripted objects.

 

Online co-op and PvP games create their own (rudderless) narratives by the kinetic interaction of the various contributors. And what is the major complaint about MMORPGs? Lack of narrative.

 

See?

 

Writing is the bit that holds everything else in place; having better writing may not be a first requirement to the gamer-in0the-street, but it certainly would be missed if it wasn't up to standard.

 

And, back to my original point: better writing is the best investment, dollar-for-dollar, (to the point of deminishing returns); not least because the cost of writing is a substantially less, as a component, than most other elements (apart from voice actors :D).

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

1. Sure the price affected my purchase. Why woudn't it? And I found out about it by reading reviews and taking recommendations. Are you going to include arguments about trust relationships in your voodoo economic model?

 

2. I see. So you would play K1 as many times as there were different lightsabre hilts, as opposed to the

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I don't know what that means.

 

Let me point out the inconsistency for you. Writing has "no grab value", yet you are "a story person".

 

If writing has no "grab value" (sic), then you would hardly be looking for it, now would you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well not being psychic I dont know ,nor would I ever want to know anything about the story before playing a game.

 

The writing will be a bonus rather than a reason for purchase. I usually go in the order of gameplay first since it's the easiest thing to get a snap shot of.

 

A good story is the icing on the cake that turns good into great. But it dosnt have any sort of purchasing consideration(since it is an unknown quality) its just a bonus feature.

[jodo kast 5]

Alright you all are pissing me off,stop with the spam and get back on topic <_<

[Dark Moth]

As I've said, writing is important, and essential, but it is not the most important aspect. You've looked at RPG's and MMORPG's, but you have to take all games into consideration.

 

Look at these games: Grand theft Auto, Halo 1 and 2, half-life 2, Diablo 1 and 2, Starcraft, Doom 3.

 

These are all successful games, some even more so than KOTOR 1 and 2. But writing is not their most important aspect. I have played all these games and can say that for a fact. It's the actual gameplay and the emersion. Writing is essential, but it is not the most important investment to make. I'm not saying that writing isn't important or essential, quite the opposite. But when stacked with everything else for a game, it takes second priority many times. Writing will have a very different effect and importance depending on the game. If you've played all the games above, then feel free to argue. But if you haven't, then don't even try.

 

And right now, I feel like the biggest ass because I keep wanting to stop posting and keep doing it. (sigh). Sorry about this, Jodo. I've been trying to say that this forum is not the place for this argument, yet these two (and me, unfortunately) keep doing it. That's what I get for playing moderator.

[metadigital]

1. Price tends to come very high up the list. Just out of curiosity would you have paid full price for it? Before playing it?

 

2. No I dont rate the KOTOR gameplay that highly. Rather you should ask would I play through 80% of the same game just to get a 20% and mostly likely trivial difference.

 

3. You really dont? Your basically taking someone['s] opinion on trust that the writing is better. That opinion is subjective. If on the other hand you have a list of features they are not subjective.

 

4. Well it sure looks that way. Even though I agree in principle the practicalities dont work for me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. Probably, yes, as I missed it when it came out. My economic rationality is that the game is delivering a similar quality of gameplay, such that I am continuing to play it (apart from when I am attending to matters on the forum), so I see it as an equivalent value as other games that have achieved this.

 

2. Okay, answer that question, in relation to my original point, which was I would prefer to explore different narrative streams rather than different coloured hats.

 

3. You seem unduly shocked. Much the same way an AI Expert System learns, the process is self-correcting over time. Hence, the more I use the system, the better information I get out of it. The risk is therefore deminishing over time, with the greatest risk being at the start of the process, which is easily masked by the purchase of a game I would buy on (publisher or developer) reputation, and comparing.

 

4. I don't understand how you can argue that good writing just isn't worth it, and yet list it as a requirement. It isn't consistent.

[metadigital]

As I've said, writing is important, and essential, but it is not the most important aspect.  You've looked at RPG's and MMORPG's, but you have to take all games into consideration. 

 

Look at these games:  Grand theft Auto, Halo 1 and 2, half-life 2, Diablo 1 and 2, Starcraft, Doom 3.

 

These are all successful games, some even more so than KOTOR 1 and 2.  But writing is not their most important aspect.  I have played all these games and can say that for a fact.  It's the actual gameplay and the emersion.  Writing is essential, but it is not the most important investment to make.  I'm not saying that writing isn't important or essential, quite the opposite.  But when stacked with everything else for a game, it takes second priority many times.  Writing will have a very different effect and importance depending on the game.

 

And right now, I feel like the biggest ass because I keep wanting to stop posting and keep doing it.  (sigh).  Sorry about this, Jodo.  I've been trying to say that this forum is not the place for this argument, yet these two (and me, unfortunately) keep doing it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you don't think GTA was well written, then you haven;t played it. I stopped in the newsagent the other day, and the GTA:SA strategy guide wsa there, and it is about 100 pages long, including half-a-dozen different characters interconnected missions (and therefore narratives), and five maps.

 

Who died and made Jodo the king of the world? Stick your opinion in your hat, oh mighty intellect. How is posting the equivalent to "shut up" any less spam than a legitimate conversation? Buffoon.

[jaguars4ever]

Alright you all are pissing me off,stop with the spam and get back on topic <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"Shut the f*ck up fat man! This ain't any of your goddamn business!"

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

1. Probably, yes, as I missed it when it came out. My economic rationality is that the game is delivering a similar quality of gameplay, such that I am continuing to play it (apart from when I am attending to matters on the forum), so I see it as an equivalent value as other games that have achieved this.

 

2. Okay, answer that question, in relation to my original point, which was I would prefer to explore different narrative streams rather than different coloured hats.

 

3. You seem unduly shocked. Much the same way an AI Expert System learns, the process is self-correcting over time. Hence, the more I use the system, the better information I get out of it. The risk is therefore deminishing over time, with the greatest risk being at the start of the process, which is easily masked by the purchase of a game I would buy on (publisher or developer) reputation, and comparing.

 

4. I don't understand how you can argue that good writing just isn't worth it, and yet list it as a requirement. It isn't consistent.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

1.Cant be that good if the forum is more entertaining

 

2.Well it goes beyond different colour hats. But since I dont find the KOTOR gameplay particularly engaging I'm not going to sit through it for a few extra dialogue options. Adressing the gameplay is further up my list than addressing the story right now.

 

3. I have a low opinion of reviewers.

 

4. It's easy I personally think that good writing is important. But I also know that it has no grab value and therefore if your trying to maximise your sales your better off spending time on grab value. It's just the same issue from two different perspectives.

[213374U]

 

"Shut the f*ck up fat man! This ain't any of your goddamn business!"

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

EWWWWWW

[Dark Moth]

And now, Metadigital, you've degenerated into insulting Jodo for trying to get you to stop arguing about something off-topic. You called him a buffoon. Hypocrite. <_< If anything, you should have shut up five pages ago cause you and ShadowPaladin are the ones who are spamming. And the GTA strategy guide is not the same thing as playing GTA. You still don't seem to be grasping my point at all. Not only have you acted in an arrogant, short-sighted manner, you can't seem to stop insulting others. You really are behaving like an ass. Go on and make some snide comeback. I really don't care anymore. Pack your bags and leave.

 

And now for something on-topic:

 

In K2, it had most of the mini-games that were in K1: Pazaak, swoop racing, and one turret scene. I think it might be a good idea if they try to incorporate other mini-games into K3. While i like pazaak, i think they could try something new. As for swoop racing, they should rework it so it's longer and a little less linear. K2 did this a little, but they might want to try something else in K3.

 

While this isn't a mini-game (more of a sidequest) I wouldn't mind doing bounty-hunting like they did in K1. It would be an easy way for a DS pc to gain some credits. :D Or for LS pc's, they could play vigilante or work for the authorities on some planets to get criminals off the streets.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

In K2, it had most of the mini-games that were in K1: Pazaak, swoop racing, and one turret scene.  I think it might be a good idea if they try to incorporate other mini-games into K3.  While i like pazaak, i think they could try something new.  As for swoop racing, they should rework it so it's longer and a little less linear.  K2 did this a little, but they might want to try something else in K3. 

 

While this isn't a mini-game (more of a sidequest) I wouldn't mind doing bounty-hunting like they did in K1.  It would be an easy way for a DS pc to gain some credits.  :D  Or for LS pc's, they could play vigilante or work for the authorities on some planets to get criminals off the streets.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd like to see that holo chess they played on the Falcon.

 

I just realised something. It's not that easy thinking up ,mini games for Star Wars

[Dark Moth]

In K2, it had most of the mini-games that were in K1: Pazaak, swoop racing, and one turret scene.  I think it might be a good idea if they try to incorporate other mini-games into K3.  While i like pazaak, i think they could try something new.  As for swoop racing, they should rework it so it's longer and a little less linear.  K2 did this a little, but they might want to try something else in K3. 

 

While this isn't a mini-game (more of a sidequest) I wouldn't mind doing bounty-hunting like they did in K1.  It would be an easy way for a DS pc to gain some credits.  :D  Or for LS pc's, they could play vigilante or work for the authorities on some planets to get criminals off the streets.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'd like to see that holo chess they played on the Falcon.

 

I just realised something. It's not that easy thinking up ,mini games for Star Wars

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

(w00t) Agree 100%. They should try to incorporate that into K3. They could even put it in your ship so you can play it with a party member or a droid (T3).

You could try playing with HK-47, but he'd probably shoot you if he lost anyway.

[213374U]

I'd like to see that holo chess they played on the Falcon.

That's called dejarik.

 

And don't ask me how the hell I know. I just do.

[metadigital]

And now, Metadigital, you've degenerated into insulting Jodo for trying to get you to stop arguing about something off-topic.  You called him a buffoon.  Hypocrite.  <_<  If anything, you should have shut up five pages ago cause you and ShadowPaladin are the ones who are spamming.  And the GTA strategy guide is not the same thing as playing GTA.  You still don't seem to be grasping my point at all.  Not only have you acted in an arrogant, short-sighted manner, you can't seem to stop insulting others.  You really are behaving like an ass.  Go on and make some snide comeback.  I really don't care anymore. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're forgetting two very important facts:

1. Jodo has no more say over what can be psted here than I do

[metadigital]

I'd like to see that holo chess they played on the Falcon.

That's called dejarik.

 

And don't ask me how the hell I know. I just do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because you've been on these fora too long ... :D

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I'd like to see that holo chess they played on the Falcon.

That's called dejarik.

 

And don't ask me how the hell I know. I just do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I just did a search thanks for naming it by the way. Suprising what it turned up.

[jodo kast 5]

Alright you all are pissing me off,stop with the spam and get back on topic <_<

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"Shut the f*ck up fat man! This ain't any of your goddamn business!"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wrong picture idiot, its obivious you never saw Pulp Fiction

[metadigital]

1.Cant be that good if the forum is more entertaining 

 

2.Well it goes beyond different colour hats. But since I don[']t find the KOTOR gameplay particularly engaging I'm not going to sit through it for a few extra dialogue options. A[d]dressing the gameplay is further up my list than addressing the story right now.

 

3. I have a low opinion of reviewers.

 

4. It's easy I personally think that good writing is important. But I also know that it has no grab value and therefore if your trying to maximise your sales your better off spending time on grab value. It's just the same issue from two different perspectives.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

1. It's on par with most games released now, because of the writing and general production values. :D

2. "Addressing the gameplay"? What, exactly does that mean? Bigger fights? More enemies? More feats? More Force Powers? Weather conditions affecting combat? What?

3. S'funny, they speak highly of you ...

[jodo kast 5]

Yeah metadigital and how could you sink so low as to insult me when i'm trying to not get this shut down

[metadigital]

Bad mental image! Bad mental image! Can't shake it, can't shake it - you'll pay for this Numberman; nobody mentally scars the jagmeister for life and gets away with it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Your avatar has gone from laughing to retching ...

[Dark Moth]

1. It's on par with most games released now, because of the writing and general production values.  :D

2. "Addressing the gameplay"? What, exactly does that mean? Bigger fights? More enemies? More feats? More Force Powers? Weather conditions affecting combat? What?

3. S'funny, they speak highly of you ... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Shut up, buffoon! :D Back to business: :cool:

 

Oh yeah...I do remember Kreia saying the line "no game of dejarik can be won without pawns". Are there official rules for that? Has LA actually made them up yet, or is it something that can still be done?