Remodel the combat system!

[Darth Blivion]

I've kinda been able to appreciate the pseudo-real time fighting system deployed for the kotor games. But lets face it turn based games have been over utilised simply because of technological constraints. Turn based combat only shows the inability for game developers to take risks or perhaps they cannot create deep real time combat systems. Lets bring real time to kotor where lightsabers will actually cut through tradoshan scum and sith like knives through butter.

[Eidolon]

Then it would be an hack-n-slash and not a pure RPG-paper emulation. Not funny. You can always play any of the Jedi Knight series, good games too but in a different perspective.

 

"O-blivion" to your idea then.

[dufflover]

It's not about technology, but the market.

Star Wars real-time combat is being covered by games like Battlefront I/II and Jedi Knight series.

KotOR is for people who don't want real-time combat. I do prefer First/Third-person shooters over Turn-based, but the KotOR story more than makes up for it.

There are heaps of people who hate the KotOR 1 turret game because they keep losing.

If you want to cut through enemies like that quickly, play some JA with it's fancy-pants (and very cool) acrobatics. I do - and I love it!

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

It's not such a bad idea. Dont let bioware do it though, they really dont have a clue when it comes to a hands on combat system. If KOTOR were going in that direction you need someone who can actually intergrate the stats and combat, but at the same time have combat that involves more than 7 moves.

 

The other positive which comes out of hands on combat is that you are so busy with it that you really dont care that your companions are AI driven. But again dont do a Jade Empire and have them pop up from dead fully healed after combat ends.

 

Not really sure why people fear it so much as it's the next logical step forward. There are also loads of examples to draw on which prove that just because you have direct control of something you dont lose any RPGness.It's generally more suited to a control pad though, so perhaps I just answered my own question.

[Heckur]

The turn-based system is a nice integration of the d20 roll system and real-time combat. If only those command queues did work It could be so simple: if commands pending in the queue, execute them first. If queue is empty: kick in the AI

[Darth Blivion]

For me a full realtime system adds dimension to the game e.g it allows for stealth missions, more tactical AI (Not simply having some dim-witted tradoshan run straight at you with a vibrosword despite being peletted by laser shots). It's the realism or the "realism" as far as what we know in GL'S universe.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

The turn-based system is a nice integration of the d20 roll system and real-time combat. If only those command queues did work It could be so simple: if commands pending in the queue, execute them first. If queue is empty: kick in the AI

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you removed the d20 what would you really be losing? Not the system now, but rather the d20 roll to hit (saving throws remain totally unafected by this).

 

Techinally you dont even need to lose the d20, but I really hate systems where you get two chances to fail, one because you misstimed your attack or even if it connects the other because then you still have to roll the dice.

 

Even if you remove the "to hit" then you still have str and dex modifying damage and AC respectively so they dont exactly become useless stats by any means.

[Heckur]

The turn-based system is a nice integration of the d20 roll system and real-time combat. If only those command queues did work It could be so simple: if commands pending in the queue, execute them first. If queue is empty: kick in the AI

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you removed the d20 what would you really be losing? Not the system now, but rather the d20 roll to hit (saving throws remain totally unafected by this).

 

Techinally you dont even need to lose the d20, but I really hate systems where you get two chances to fail, one because you misstimed your attack or even if it connects the other because then you still have to roll the dice.

 

Even if you remove the "to hit" then you still have str and dex modifying damage and AC respectively so they dont exactly become useless stats by any means.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But the whole environment is d20 based: your ability to detect mines, whether poison affects you or not, picking locks. All this was designed with 'reality' in mind. Removing saving throws means that poison always works, that critical hits always stun. It would be like a real-life boxing match, where an upper-cut always results in a KO.

 

Losing the d20 roll to hit, like you're proposing, means that only the base attack bonus is compared to the armor class of the oponent. So all strokes hit if your BAB is higher then his AC, or all miss if it is lower. Not very fun.

[Heckur]

For me a full realtime system adds dimension to the game e.g it allows for stealth missions, more tactical AI (Not simply having some dim-witted tradoshan run straight at you with a vibrosword despite being peletted by laser shots). It's the realism or the "realism" as far as what we know in GL'S universe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The d20 system is not the problem here, it's the AI.

[dufflover]

What's the issue here?

The turn-based part or the fact that it's all pretty linear (you run towards each other and attack).

 

For the 2nd part, you could just add Dodge/Evade moves column and queue that up which'll increase your defense. Just a quickie off the top my head.

[Darth Blivion]

I'm not well versed as far as the d20 system is concerned but in its defence i'll say it makes combat related attributes significant. But lets consider your party AI. For one they ran headlong into clearly visible mines. This aspect of the games system is'nt fun. Secondly the way the system works grenades and mines a practically weak. Weak in the sense that they dont deliver realistic damage. Now anyone here who has played any FPS or JA for that matter knows that in those games when someone throws a grenade you dodge roll and cover or you're dead.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Losing the d20 roll to hit, like you're proposing, means that only the base attack bonus is compared to the armor class of the oponent. So all strokes hit if your BAB is higher then his AC, or all miss if it is lower. Not very fun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No , thats not what I mean. I mean do away with the "to hit" part altogether and have combat worked like it would in a game like Tekken. If you hit you hit, if you miss you miss. The stats would still modify the effects but there would be no more to hit roll as part of combat.

 

BAB therefore likewise becomes totally obsolete and AC takes on the function of absorbing and reducing the damage rather than outright eliminating it, which is what your dodge and block functions are for.

 

Lets see if I can explain it.

 

At the moment you click on a target and an attack , say flurry and the dice does the rest.

 

What I am suggesting is something like this. (using Xbox controls for example).

 

Black button would cycle your stances - skills like flurry critical strike etc would be intergrated into those stances. So you have your fast flurry stances, your strong power attack stances etc.

 

Depending on which stance you chose the buttons would activate different moves. As well as the behind the scenes modifiers which you get in the current KOTOR II stances like increased automatic blaster defelection etc.

 

Leveling up would open up new moves and combo's in much the same way as in the EPIII game. But everything else D20 would be compatible, you could still keep the same damage rolls and hp's and everything else.

 

Might be worth taking a look at Oblivion since they are going for a similiar sort of intergration (again dropping any artificial hit roll).

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

I'm not well versed as far as the d20 system is concerned but in its defence i'll say it makes combat related attributes significant. But lets consider your party AI. For one they ran headlong into  clearly visible mines. This aspect of the games system is'nt fun. Secondly the way the system works grenades and mines a practically weak. Weak in the sense that they dont deliver realistic damage. Now anyone here who has played any FPS or JA for that matter knows that in those games when someone throws a grenade you dodge roll and cover or you're dead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats what the reflex saving throw is supposed to simulate.

[Heckur]

Losing the d20 roll to hit, like you're proposing, means that only the base attack bonus is compared to the armor class of the oponent. So all strokes hit if your BAB is higher then his AC, or all miss if it is lower. Not very fun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No , thats not what I mean. I mean do away with the "to hit" part altogether and have combat worked like it would in a game like Tekken. If you hit you hit, if you miss you miss. The stats would still modify the effects but there would be no more to hit roll as part of combat.

 

BAB therefore likewise becomes totally obsolete and AC takes on the function of absorbing and reducing the damage rather than outright eliminating it, which is what your dodge and block functions are for.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So what you mean is replace the d20 to-hit with the skill of the player behind the PC/console, like in a FPS? That's not role playing anymore: the skill of the player is more or less constant (perhaps slightly improving after many hours of playing). The exile however, is gaining experience while progressing through the game.

 

Take a look at Jedi Outcast or similar games.

[Darth Blivion]

I'm not well versed as far as the d20 system is concerned but in its defence i'll say it makes combat related attributes significant. But lets consider your party AI. For one they ran headlong into  clearly visible mines. This aspect of the games system is'nt fun. Secondly the way the system works grenades and mines a practically weak. Weak in the sense that they dont deliver realistic damage. Now anyone here who has played any FPS or JA for that matter knows that in those games when someone throws a grenade you dodge roll and cover or you're dead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thats what the reflex saving throw is supposed to simulate.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

But it's not nearly enough not for a video game about Jedi.

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

So what you mean is replace the d20 to-hit with the skill of the player behind the PC/console, like in a FPS? That's not role playing anymore: the skill of the player is more or less constant (perhaps slightly improving after many hours of playing). The exile however, is gaining experience while progressing through the game.

 

Take a look at Jedi Outcast or similar games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The improvement will still happen since your only removing part of the equation.

 

Your still going to level up and get more hp's , your still going to get better weapons and armour, your stats are still going to be modifying how much damage you can dish out and take. The major difference being instead of just pointing and clicking your now actually in direct control. But like in any RPG a good character is still going to make up for the weakness of the player and it's going to take a very skilled player to overcome the handicaps of an underleveled character.

 

It's not like there isnt already a great deal of player skill involved in the KOTORs anyway.

 

In an FPS you dont have any such modifiers. I could teleport master chief to the end boss and depending on how good I was have no trouble taking him out. Thats not going to happen here since the core of the system is still intact. Your still not going to be able to run around with a level 1 character and kill a level 20 endboss anymore than you can now.

 

Is outcast the one where you can buy new powers but the character dosnt change at all aside from that?

[Darth Blivion]

Why do people equate gameplay to Role playing. I mean look at Zelda, the game offers you opportunity to advance by awarding you new items and abilities but it is not the core element of the game. It is about a character being woven into a story and a scenario much larger than themselves and yet despite the nature of the role it is absolutely necessary in it's world.

[Heckur]

So what you mean is replace the d20 to-hit with the skill of the player behind the PC/console, like in a FPS? That's not role playing anymore: the skill of the player is more or less constant (perhaps slightly improving after many hours of playing). The exile however, is gaining experience while progressing through the game.

 

Take a look at Jedi Outcast or similar games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The improvement will still happen since your only removing part of the equation.

 

Your still going to level up and get more hp's , your still going to get better weapons and armour, your stats are still going to be modifying how much damage you can dish out and take. The major difference being instead of just pointing and clicking your now actually in direct control. But like in any RPG a good character is still going to make up for the weakness of the player and it's going to take a very skilled player to overcome the handicaps of an underleveled character.

 

It's not like there isnt already a great deal of player skill involved in the KOTORs anyway.

 

In an FPS you dont have any such modifiers. I could teleport master chief to the end boss and depending on how good I was have no trouble taking him out. Thats not going to happen here since the core of the system is still intact. Your still not going to be able to run around with a level 1 character and kill a level 20 endboss anymore than you can now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, now I understand you. I think what you're proposing would be an improvement. It would give more involvement in the game: lean back and you lose the battle, but actively fight back and you might win.

 

Is outcast the one where you can buy new powers but the character dosnt change at all aside from that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes. Powers come with experience, but nothing else.

[Darkfire]

The problem with the 'real-time' combat in KOTOR is the AI and the 'closeness' of everything.

 

If you are going to use continous turn based system then you need to do one of two things for the AI:

 

1. Have a good AI for characters that are not currently being controlled by the player. To follow this route it has to be very good, otherwise you get the headless chicken behaviour in KOTOR.

 

2. Don't have an AI, but make it easier to control the party. Baldur's Gate is a good example. There was a number of scripts that could be used (and some were useful even), but the default behaviour was good enough to look after themselves for a few seconds before you gave them orders...and of course they would follow those bloody orders as well!

 

More recent games have followed approach one, but failed because of combination of the tasks complexity and being more interested in the 'looks'. Frankly if you can't get it right, then DON'T do it...give back control or at least a way of turning of the AI.

 

The closeness of the game make tactical options extremely limited, for both the player and the AI. Hence the 'rush em' approach...its about all it can do. Open things out a bit, make the terrain help (make you harder to hit that is, not just stop you from being shot at) and stop the AI from running at things to get line of sight (often I just want them to keep their distance but get line of sight...'move a bit to the left you fool...no, don't run through the door...ARRGGHH!!!' ).

 

There is only one 'real-time' combat game that I've played were I could control the characters well enough and have the AI help and that was Fallout Tactics. Had some very simple controls for the AI, but was very powerful and more importantly they would follow the orders.

[Plano Skywalker]

personally, I would be happy with the following combat changes:

 

1) Real-time for BOSS BATTLES (and only boss battles).

 

2) The ability to advance in specific forms and/or stances (i.e. Jade Empire does this).

 

3) Better NPC AI (that's a no-brainer).

 

4) Keep the individual AI scripts but also add SQUAD COMMANDS that temporarily override the individual AI.

 

those changes would do the trick for me.

 

 

EDIT: also, we really need to be able to resolve combat in NON-LETHAL ways some of the time....Jedi try to detain and not kill whenever possible. This is huge from a roleplay perspective, IMO.

[Heckur]

The closeness of the game make tactical options extremely limited, for both the player and the AI. Hence the 'rush em' approach...its about all it can do. Open things out a bit, make the terrain help (make you harder to hit that is, not just stop you from being shot at) and stop the AI from running at things to get line of sight (often I just want them to keep their distance but get line of sight...'move a bit to the left you fool...no, don't run through the door...ARRGGHH!!!' ).

 

There is only one 'real-time' combat game that I've played were I could control the characters well enough and have the AI help and that was Fallout Tactics. Had some very simple controls for the AI, but was very powerful and more importantly they would follow the orders.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Even in K2's closed quarters there're so many options to make a better AI:

- use a melee shield when under melee attack

- use an energy shield when under blaster fire

- buff

- let the ranged fighters fall back when under melee attack

- help each other

- all against one

 

And think of all the options you have when using the force. Buff first and attack later? Strike first to get a helpless enemy and leaving yourself unprotected if this fails? But no, all Kreia does is fight first and buff when everyone is dead, depleting all her force points. Even the end-bosses don't know how to use their powers.

 

Of all games I've played there was only one with a decent AI: Unreal. There you encountered one enemy at the time and it was enough. Not because they were overpowered, but because they were smart. They dodged your fire, hid when necessary, retreited when wounded.

 

All I read the last 5 to 10 years is comments like: "In this game we have realy given attention to AI", "Now they are realy smart." It seems that the number of comments like is directly subtracted from the number days, hours perhaps, that is spent on the AI.

 

"Boss, we still need to develop that promised AI!"

"OK Marl, you have 4 hours to write that script"

[Heckur]

EDIT:  also, we really need to be able to resolve combat in NON-LETHAL ways some of the time....Jedi try to detain and not kill whenever possible.  This is huge from a roleplay perspective, IMO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, you can always stun them and run away...

And take control over another party member to make him run away too...

And take control over another party member to make him run away too...

And take control over another party member to make him run away too...

And take control over another party member to make him run away too...

And take control over another party member to make him run away too...

[Plano Skywalker]

Of all games I've played there was only one with a decent AI: Unreal. There you encountered one enemy at the time and it was enough. Not because they were overpowered, but because they were smart. They dodged your fire, hid when necessary, retreited when wounded.

 

All I read the last 5 to 10 years is comments like: "In this game we have realy given attention to AI", "Now they are realy smart." It seems that the number of comments like is directly subtracted from the number days, hours perhaps, that is spent on the AI.

 

"Boss, we still need to develop that promised AI!"

"OK Marl, you have 4 hours to write that script"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Right. AI is probably one of the more challenging things to write for a game like this. If K3 is based off the Unreal 3 engine, then maybe we will see some really decent AI this time. That would make a big difference.

[GhostofAnakin]

I'm not well versed as far as the d20 system is concerned but in its defence i'll say it makes combat related attributes significant. But lets consider your party AI. For one they ran headlong into  clearly visible mines. This aspect of the games system is'nt fun.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As was said before, what you're using as an example is an example of poor AI, not the turn-based system itself.

[SteveThaiBinh]

They should bring back the combat from NWN, where the characters dance around each other and only occasionally get round to making an attack. I thought it was hilarious. The next step is to have them attack in time with the music.

 

More generally, turn-based like Kotor 2 works fine for me, because I don't need to use two hands, aim or keep clicking at things. If they want to try something different, you should have the option of choosing between two systems according to your taste. You could do this with Arcanum, although apparently it wasn't highly thought of, but I wonder if it will become a wider trend to attract different kinds of gamers to the same product.