KotOR Legacy....

[Daniel Ryba]

Greetings,

 

I have decided to take this moment to write a post in regards to the Knights of the Old Republic and the legacy of the merchandise (for after the latest instalment... that

[Girias_Solo]

Hello Daniel,

 

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are saying. Is it the fact that your Revan made these promises and then, after remembering some forgotten evil, decided that in order for anyone to have a long and happy life together, he would have to put this evil to rest first? If so, then that is my answer to your problem.

 

Stay with Bastila, or leave her (for now) in order to clean up a mess that, if not checked, will lead to destruction of the galaxy. Which would you have chosen if you put yourself in your Revans shoes? Being the Blue light sabered hero that you are (As I was i might add ), you promise your undying love to Bastila, refuse to tell her where you are going ( as you know how evil and horrid the destination you are going to is, and she would follow you and get killed/turned again if you didn't arrive back after a certain amount of time).

 

As for LucasArts, My own views on them are quite poor, and I would be loathe to listen to their 'Official' version. That kind of thing only forces a software company with great writers like Obsidian down a tunnel imho.

[Grone]

Greetings,

 

I have decided to take this moment to write a post in regards to the Knights of the Old Republic and the legacy of the merchandise (for after the latest instalment... that

[Daniel Ryba]

Some valid points made in the recent replies... and I thank you for them and the manner in which they were delivered.

 

Allow me to add a small concept to the deliberations...

 

Simple question

[Grone]

I must say that you bring some interesting viewpoints.

 

As for an answer to your "simple question", it is not a simple question at all actually.

 

The Sith Lords is KotORII not only out of shared storyline but out of convenience. KotOR1 was a great engine, a great world, a great setting. So if you have an idea for a Starwars game, why not use the same engine, and same setting. Plus, KotORIII is (or so the wise men say) destined to draw threads between K1 and K2 to show why they're in a series. So I think I'll answer your simple question after K3

 

Besides that, I think you take SW a little to seriously, I'm quite sure SW is meant to be smiled about. That's why EpisodeIII is such a great movie, it's adventure, good, evil: All of the things he Starwars FILMS are.

 

You can't lift SW up to a mature level, because Starwars isn't mature. Starwars is not made solely for adults or soely for children (well I'm 18, you decide if I'm an adult or a child), Starwars is made for everyone with a playsick personality: It is adventure, and it is fun, nothing more.

 

The only seriousness in SW is the political hints George Lucas uses:

 

Anakin: "If you are not with me, then you are my enemy"

 

George W. Bush: "If you are not with us, then you are against us"

 

George Lucas has made a movie that divides everything into light and dark, and one of the only serious philosphical hints we can learn from it, is that nothing in the real world is to be divided into those categories. In other ways, dividing everything into two categories, light and dark, Lucas shows us how absurd it is.

 

As you say yourself: The Jedi Code DOESN'T in fact represent pure goodness, but neither does the Sith represent pure evil.

 

Starwars is both for you, it is for me AND it is for the morally challenged 13-year-old, so to speak

[Girias_Solo]

Daniel,

 

Much like yourself, I made my first post here wearing an anti flame suit...and the second post in my first thread was a flame (w00t) .

 

As for what you have written: When you wrote 'Kotor 1 saved the Star Wars franchise in my eyes' I cannot agree more with you. The new movies ( I have not seen 3), while being entertaining, are a laugh!

 

However, Kotor2 I found to be an excellent game. And writing a sequel that was so far removed (100 years) would have been a success. I however believe that it is also a success as it is written. Obsidian themselves have really tried hard to accomodate both Revan;Dark or light, into the story depending on the players choice.

 

I would argue that the one flaw with a sequel being so far out of touch of its forbear is the question; why is it number 2? It could have been just another Star Wars RPG. This would be the problem with a 100 year gap imho. It may add in tidbits about the first Kotor, but really, its relationship with the first game would be virtually only in name. And, even then the story given about the events of the first game may still upset someone who disagree with the outcome.

 

What if, for example, this different kotor 2 made up a storyline similar to the current kotor 2's to cover the legend? Revan went off to find the true sith etc etc....

 

Icewind Dale 2 really had little connection to the first game. It could be said that it shouldn't have really been a sequel, instead just having its own name and based around a similar area to Icewind dale itself.

 

Anyway, thats my opinion. The flame throwers will probably be getting up soonish. :D

[Grone]

Go see Episode III, it rocks.

 

It connects all the films, gives them all a purpose (even Episode I) and connects all the dots, it has a fantastic feel, the adventure of the first films, the love of Episode 1, and the visuals of Episode II. It is stunning to say the least.

 

Force Persuade: I have not said anything off-topic. Now back to the topic. HrHrm.

[alanschu]

One of the wonderful moments of KotOR 1 was a love theme between Revan and Bastila

[Daniel Ryba]

Once again, valid points and I am glad to see the conversation maintained on a civilized level, for that I am thankful.

 

To answer your questions and address your points.

 

* on taking Star Wars too serious

 

Yes, you are right. Full Stop, nothing more here to say. I do take Star Wars too serious. I suppose I have grown up with it

[alanschu]

Any of you who have played Jade Empire will probably see that even in there, there is a quest that can be very easily interpreted as a

[Darkkender]

While this might sound like a fanboy comment it is not meant in this manner.

 

Kotor 1 & Kotor 2 are not storylines layed out by seperate software companies Bioware & Obsidian respectively. They are storyboard ideas derived by Lucasarts who has hired the above software companies to develop these games.

 

The storyline for a potential Kotor 3 will also be set down by Lucasarts.

 

Now this being said they allow the Game company alot of liberties in how to achieve the goals setdown in theses storyboards. As a 15 year veteran of RPG's of many varieties I can speak with some reasoning. If you consider these methodologies they are very much like a preplanned adventure that you buy at a store. Many preplanned adventures can be bought for basic ideas but each GM is likely to change them to fit within there campaign or there idea of how that adventure should progress.

 

I won't deny there is a part of me that felt cheated with the Why Revan is gone story. However I enjoy playing the Exile just as much because of the Exiles own unique story. I for one was also glad that they didn't go heavy handed and give us another overboard Romance story plot. I don't mind romance however some of the scenes in K1 made some of the worst sappy romance stories look like works of genius and true emotion.

[alanschu]

I'm pretty sure that Knights of the Old Republic was a completely original idea by Bioware. It's just that all of their ideas had to be run by Lucasarts for approval.

[Archmonarch]

That was my impression as well.

[Darkkender]

I'm pretty sure that Knights of the Old Republic was a completely original idea by Bioware.  It's just that all of their ideas had to be run by Lucasarts for approval.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It wasn't, or at least not in the sense your thinking of. Lucasarts had the concept and through there conection with Hasboro, who owns Wizards of The Coast, who developed The Star Wars & Dungeons & Dragons D20 systems, who had contracted bioware to develop Neverwinter Nights due in part to the long standing history with Bioware, & Black Isle. The web is probably much more complex. However any game coming out with the Lucasarts Label for Star Wars in one way shape or form is a story concept that Lucasarts has come up with. Now this is not to say that Bioware didn't have a hand in furthering that story originally in there own vision. Obsidian did the same when they picked up the development of the sequel halfway through the sequels development. Oh and yes Bioware had started K2 but then Lucasarts was not pleased with the progress of development and gave Obsidian a chance at the game and final production was done by them.

[alanschu]

I'm looking into it, since I was certain it was the other way.

 

A friend of mine from University plays PnP games with a guy from Bioware, so he could provide some insight.

 

 

Look at my address...the answer is literally in the proximity :D

[nightcleaver]

Without a conflict, there is no life to a given story. This is true in real life and in fictional

life, or even science-fictional life.

 

I largely agree with the decision to leave Revan out of the picture. I feel it would've been

worse (to some degree) to have Revan remain in the picture when he can no longer be the focus

of the story. The way they did it, KotOR is still about Revan, but the focus of the story

of TSL is on the consequent actions of a different character. They had to use a different

character, because LA told them to. The OT and the prequel trilogy, combined as episodes I-VI, are

about anakin skywalker/darth vader, but IV-VI focus on the actions of Luke Skywalker and his friends.

I believe this story was trying to do much the same thing. If it had continued to focus on Darth

Vader, we would have seen a story about pretty menial tasks of governance - killing Force Sensitive

babies, perhaps, enforcing the law, etc. Not too star-warsy. I believe it would be the same way

with Revan's story, after KotOR I. Menial tasks - governance . In sacrifice to becoming a continuation

of Revan's story, it would lose the life of the previous story, and not be a true spiritual successor.

 

Without any epic conflict remaining to be resolved in the sequel, the franchise would become a serial,

an outlet for passion about the original story, about the original characters. It would become one

big War and Peace, never ending. In order for the story to continue, and continue being epic, there

would have to be loose ends in the first game - and there were, and Obsidian exploited those.

 

In my opinion, lifeless serial fan-fic isn't worth my hard cash. Serial fan-fic, if I ever had to

pay for it, would be a money sink and little more.

 

A sequel that stands on its own IS worth my hard cash, and fails to become a money sink because it

continues to be a story that stands on its own.

 

However, I have a few issues with this sequel as it stands. As much as I liked the game, it felt

off as a sequel. Mind you, I don't feel like blaiming it on carelessness, or a rush job - although

perhaps some of my problems with the game's story (not just as a sequel) wouldn't be there if they

had had more time to flesh it out.

 

The biggest issue I have with this sequel is the explanation of the Force. This wouldn't be a problem,

except for how pervasive the explanation is, and how unsympathetic to who the characters seemed to be the

explanation is. The focus of this story was... weird. These new ideas about the Force were interesting,

but they weren't truly a good driving motive for a Star Wars KotOR I sequel. The story, perhaps because of the amount,

the type, or just that there is so much explanation, becomes a little bit abstract - are we really talking about

Kreia's betrayal, here, or are we talking about her beliefs?

 

TSL suffered from something I've seen many sci-fi stories "suffer" from: a focus on ideas instead of characterization. The characters here, as much as a few of them were very well fleshed-out, weren't all that memorable in the same way as the characters were in the first game. The focus of just about every single conversation in TSL was about the Force, conflict, Revan... abstractions... and not past experiences, a simple sharing of the cup as was the case in the first game. For any number of reasons, it seemed like there was very little actual interaction with these characters in TSL. Even the system for talking to your companions, the Influence system, lent a more emotionally abstract center to your dealings with them. At least, that's how I feel about it. And that's why it didn't feel like a spiritual successor, which I think I wanted.

 

I think if they had simply expanded those ideas as approached in the first game in their

own light it would've been more ok for them to do. There was just more... well... "abstraction" than this

community wanted, I think,and far too soon after the first game.

[Darth_Plagus]

Greetings

 

To get straight to the point: The problem is not the lack of respect towards Revan or any other character in the story. Since the player has to make certain choices throughout the two games (like male/female, light path/dark path, etc) it would be impossible for Obsidian to cover all those choices at the same time. Yet Obsidian tried to do that by creating a basic storyline not only for Revan but for some other characters as well. This storyline due to the forementioned reason was too wide and at times too vague, leaving "holes" in the plot. What I mean is that the "lack of respect" towards characters is not the immediate problem. It comes form the forementioned fact concerning the storyline of the games. They offered a truly wide variety of choices to players but sadly this variety cannot respond to the plot or to the characters themselves. Personally, I think this is the only flaw of the game.

[Daniel Ryba]

Greetings again,

 

I thank you for your replies and your company so far

Now, onwards with the program

[Wraith]

to your beginning post daniel I understand what you mean never leve the woman he loved

 

but as you can see the starwars seris deals greatly in irony

 

so revan leaves the woman he loves to protect her a parodox you could say

 

by any chance do you know where revan eventually ends up

 

Edit: this story is all about revan yes the exile is important too but revan plays a far greater role

 

both revan and the exile know what it means to bring balance to the force to embrace th gray side

[Grone]

to your beginning post daniel I understand what you mean never leve the woman he loved

 

but as you can see the starwars seris deals greatly in irony

 

so revan leaves the woman he loves to protect her a parodox you could say

 

by any chance do you know where revan eventually ends up

 

Edit: this story is all about revan yes the exile is important too but revan plays a far greater role

 

both revan and the exile know what it means to bring balance to the force to embrace th gray side

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have to agree a little with Wraith about the paradox thing. As you say, imagine that K2 had made Revan stay with Bastila: Then everyone who hadn't romanced her and hated her would be angry. By making him leaving her, the ones who loved could say: "It was to protect her" and the others could say: "It was to get away from her". I played a female lightsider as Revan on my first runthrough: AND I HATED BASTILA. My Revan would have left her first chance she got.

[Daniel Ryba]

to your beginning post daniel I understand what you mean never leve the woman he loved

 

but as you can see the starwars seris deals greatly in irony

 

so revan leaves the woman he loves to protect her a parodox you could say

 

by any chance do you know where revan eventually ends up

 

Edit: this story is all about revan yes the exile is important too but revan plays a far greater role

 

both revan and the exile know what it means to bring balance to the force to embrace th gray side

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Of course this is a most valid point....

Except it would have been nice if we were given a choice about it

[Volourn]

"wasn't, or at least not in the sense your thinking of. Lucasarts had the concept and through there conection with Hasboro, who owns Wizards of The Coast, who developed The Star Wars & Dungeons & Dragons D20 systems, who had contracted bioware to develop Neverwinter Nights due in part to the long standing history with Bioware, & Black Isle. The web is probably much more complex. However any game coming out with the Lucasarts Label for Star Wars in one way shape or form is a story concept that Lucasarts has come up with. Now this is not to say that Bioware didn't have a hand in furthering that story originally in there own vision. Obsidian did the same when they picked up the development of the sequel halfway through the sequels development. Oh and yes Bioware had started K2 but then Lucasarts was not pleased with the progress of development and gave Obsidian a chance at the game and final production was done by them."

 

No. You are wrong. It's been made clear that BIO wrote KOTOR, and LA approved it after a give and take. This is a fact.

 

 

 

"Your character (in Jade Empire) is approached by a writer /director who has written a great story and played it outside the Imperial Capital. After its success he was invited to present the same story in the Capital itself but upon arrival he found that a number of important elements of the story have been changed and rewritten by a new director. The story is no longer about what it was meant to be

[Grone]

I don't think the game meant to enforce that the jedi masters were "wrong", or that the sith were for that matter. I think the game gave us all these different beliefs because we should choose amongst them ourselves. Kreia just sounded stronger in her beliefs, but that doesn't mean Obsidian meant to show her as the "truth". I love the game because it stands in a very good contrast to Platos "cavepicture".

 

Otherwise I agree with you. They promised everything would be your choice, but in order for that to happen you would ultimately have to make a game with the contents of three or four games, because every choice should end up turning the game in a whole other direction.

[Jambo]

it would have been nice if there were a couple more places where your choices affect how the game is played, though...

[Daniel Ryba]

And there we have it... this was not some sort of crusade on my behalf to "talk down" other people's hard work (although I am sure in places it may just sound like it, while I took some time, however brief, to recognize it)

 

After all it was their promise, not our requirement