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The Force in KOTOR 2


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What I have observed to be bad theology in KOTOR 2 or Star Wars:

 

1. In KOTOR 2, it is mentioned by Kreia that the Force has a will. From here, you may ask the ultimate question behind the world of Star Wars. What is the Force? Is the Force, in having a will as noted by Kreia, a personality representing the (One) Supreme Being behind the world of Star Wars? If so, how can the Force being a personality be freely manipulated/tapped/used by Jedi and Sith?

 

2. Dark side and Light side. How do you begin to understand this aspect of The Force or theology behind Star wars? If there are these two sides (if you can view it as two), then what do we make of the nature of the force? Is it ultimately benevolent and, if so, what is this side to it that allows itself to be manipulated by the Sith? Is there one or two Forces? Are both Equipotent? Oh Grief! More Gnostic crap!

 

3. With regards to Force Bonds experienced by my KOTOR 2 character in Malachor during the Mandalorian Wars and in as far as I can presume to understand things correctly in KOTOR 2, the Force is of course eternally witness to force bonds made in or through it (if you can call it it). But there are consequences. A traumatic severance of a force bond or bonds where a soul party to this bond dies, depending also on the

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lol... Well even that no one ever have explain what the * force * really means.. I suppose the more logical explanations will be.. something in the area of particle manipulation in an atomic level... everything in the universe is make of atoms.. you, me, you car, earth, the sun.. etc...

 

If the *force* could be defined.. will be the manipulation of all the atoms in the universe in a spiritual level.. ( the connection with everything on the universe death or alive ).. so people connected with the * force * could .. ( with training ) manipulate things around then by using the atoms in a specific area in the universe..

 

But hey...!! is all fantasy!!.. even that theoretically is possible... logically and practically is TOTALLY impossible.

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All that is understandable. But spiritual level... I don't think so.

 

You can't even begin to look to metaphysics to explain the relation between the force and the Jedi or Sith and in how the force allows them to exceed the limitations of their bodies. How seemingly they are able to display powers over matter or nature. When is it being connected to the Force spiritual ? When you do so as Sith or Jedi.

 

You can't even begin to say Spiritual when you don't even know the true nature of the Force.

 

G.Lucas should finally be ohnest abt his franchise.

 

 

lol... Well even that no one ever have explain what the * force * really means.. I suppose the more logical explanations will be.. something in the area of particle manipulation in an atomic level... everything in the universe is make of atoms.. you, me, you car, earth, the sun.. etc...

 

If the *force* could be defined.. will be the manipulation of all the atoms in the universe in a spiritual level.. ( the connection with everything on the universe death or alive ).. so people connected with the * force * could .. ( with training ) manipulate things around then by using the atoms in a specific area in the universe..

 

But hey...!! is all fantasy!!.. even that theoretically is possible... logically and practically is TOTALLY impossible.

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You're a little late, we've had a twenty-page discussion about it already (<{POST_SNAPBACK}>)!

 

The conclusion I came to (feel free to read the thread and make your own) is that the philosophy of The Force is not even given the amount of thought that the contributors to this thread have given it. It is not even an after-thought; so, consequently, when we try to unravel the quiddity of this imaginary concept (which -- naturally -- prevents us from direct observation and scientific experimentation) we have only the self-contradictory descriptions in Kreia / Atris / Traya / Jedi Council / individual Jedi members.

 

I have noted (and recorded, in the above-mentioned thread) some of the more heinous contrdictions: some in the same speech of a character, in adjacent paragraphs!

 

Because of this, I concluded that the Force is indeed a (malevolent) despotic being, that manipulates the universe via the Force for its own agenda (presumably to some sort of self-actualization).

 

My utlimate conclusion was that Kreia was in fact correct; subsequently she must be lauded as a True Prophet by the Anti-Force advocates, who seek to end the falsehoods of the Force, to restore true freedom of choice back to the inhabitants of the universe.

:thumbsup:

OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS

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OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT

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Here is my pecualir analogy/theory for the Force:

Each race has a massiv eportoin of the frorce alloted to it. As force users increase in pwoer, they consume portoins of teh force (like software on a harddrive). When they die, their pwoer is lessened but they gain a permanent foothold in a minor portoin of the force (hence "becoming one with the force"). gradually, as 1000s of force users die, greater quantities of the force are consumed, limiting the power of new force-users and eventually sealing the force from some races due to lack of appropriate quantities of space. The personna of each fallen force user impacts the force, thus the Dark Side (the cumulative will of the souls of evil individuals) and the Light Side (the cumulative will of the souls of benign individuals) are formed. The quantity of "force space" and individuals "soul" utilizes depdns on their power. However, the quantity after death is only a fraction of their former power.

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All that is understandable. But spiritual level... I don't think so.

 

You can't even begin to look to metaphysics to explain the relation between the force and the Jedi or Sith and in how the force allows them to exceed the limitations of their bodies. How seemingly they are able to display powers over matter or nature. When is it being connected to the Force spiritual ? When you do so as Sith or Jedi.

 

You can't even begin to say Spiritual when you don't even know the true nature of the Force.

 

G.Lucas should finally be ohnest abt his franchise.

 

 

lol... Well even that no one ever have explain what the * force * really means.. I suppose the more logical explanations will be.. something in the area of particle manipulation in an atomic level... everything in the universe is make of atoms.. you, me, you car, earth, the sun.. etc...

 

If the *force* could be defined.. will be the manipulation of all the atoms in the universe in a spiritual level.. ( the connection with everything on the universe death or alive ).. so people connected with the * force * could .. ( with training ) manipulate things around then by using the atoms in a specific area in the universe..

 

But hey...!! is all fantasy!!.. even that theoretically is possible... logically and practically is TOTALLY impossible.

 

Well the light / dark side explanation...will be similar to why Humans are good and bad..

 

Why some people sacrifice there life to help others... when other people dedicates there full life to destroy others ?

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All that is understandable. But spiritual level... I don't think so.

 

You can't even begin to look to metaphysics to explain the relation between the force and the Jedi or Sith and in how the force allows them to exceed the limitations of their bodies. How seemingly they are able to display powers over matter or nature. When is it being connected to the Force spiritual ? When you do so as Sith or Jedi.

 

You can't even begin to say Spiritual when you don't even know the true nature of the Force.

 

G.Lucas should finally be ohnest abt his franchise.

 

 

lol... Well even that no one ever have explain what the * force * really means.. I suppose the more logical explanations will be.. something in the area of particle manipulation in an atomic level... everything in the universe is make of atoms.. you, me, you car, earth, the sun.. etc...

 

If the *force* could be defined.. will be the manipulation of all the atoms in the universe in a spiritual level.. ( the connection with everything on the universe death or alive ).. so people connected with the * force * could .. ( with training ) manipulate things around then by using the atoms in a specific area in the universe..

 

But hey...!! is all fantasy!!.. even that theoretically is possible... logically and practically is TOTALLY impossible.

 

Well the light / dark side explanation...will be similar to why Humans are good and bad..

 

Why some people sacrifice there life to help others... when other people dedicates there full life to destroy others ?

 

 

Type error correction:

' when you do so as Sith or Jedi ?'

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You're a little late, we've had a twenty-page discussion about it already (<{POST_SNAPBACK}>)!

 

The conclusion I came to (feel free to read the thread and make your own) is that the philosophy of The Force is not even given the amount of thought that the contributors to this thread have given it. It is not even an after-thought; so, consequently, when we try to unravel the quiddity of this imaginary concept (which -- naturally -- prevents us from direct observation and scientific experimentation) we have only the self-contradictory descriptions in Kreia / Atris / Traya / Jedi Council / individual Jedi members.

 

I have noted (and recorded, in the above-mentioned thread) some of the more heinous contrdictions: some in the same speech of a character, in adjacent paragraphs!

 

Because of this, I concluded that the Force is indeed a (malevolent) despotic being, that manipulates the universe via the Force for its own agenda (presumably to some sort of self-actualization).

 

My utlimate conclusion was that Kreia was in fact correct; subsequently she must be lauded as a True Prophet by the Anti-Force advocates, who seek to end the falsehoods of the Force, to restore true freedom of choice back to the inhabitants of the universe.

:ninja:

 

If rational beings or living souls have always been subject directly or indirectly to the this malevolent force then how do you explain The Exile? How do you know your right if your always under the influence of the Force? By what infallible stance would you hold your anti-force claims?

 

The Exile would be the anti anti-force advocacy.

 

The motive for or to reach some form of profound or significant self actualization is not consistent with the act of exercising dominance or control over matter and intelligences.

 

The Force cannot hope to be more of itself in being evil. You cannot overcome delusion without relinquishing evil.

 

What you found to be lack of thought is right. But I can top that- the idea of The Force is filled with unreason

 

Mikhas Numarin

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because Kreia is right. It doesnt mean the Exile is the key.

 

 

I do think Exile is like a blackhole of the Force.

 

 

 

The Black hole sucks all the matter and energy it can get.

 

 

Same way the Exile sucks the force energy out of those whom he killed in his life after malchor 5

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In the case of the exile.. and this game.. is few keys of what is going on

* Something happens to the exile during the Mandalorians wars *

 

- Only Revan and few in the Jedi console knows what It's.

- Kreia wants to exploit what ever happens to the Exile.

- The Exile have not clue not what so ever of what is going on with him.

 

Is a connection that the Exile have with something in the force.. that is related with Revan... and that connection is what every one is interested on.. Kreia wants to manipulated.. Atris wants to use it.. and the Jedi's wants to destroyed..

 

The Exile is just in the middle of all this fighting for him.. and he never really discovers what is that connection he have with Revan.. I guess we will have to wait for the 3rd game to come out.. so we can find out. :o

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Maybe that huge imbalance in the force is caused by this somehow?

 

I don't think Revan expected the Exile to come to him.

 

Maybe the full plot is to do with Revan trying to destroy everything to do with the force?.. Maybe Kreia is the one that is been manipulated by Revan?.. and not the Exile... Maybe the Exile was the Key for Revan manipulation of Kreia ?... Maybe ... only ... maybe.. The Exile is just the excuse.. and Kreia is the REAL key...

 

We should see .... ;)

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My take:

 

First of all the force is nutral neither good nor evil. An action is not inheriantly good or evil. It is man that palces such lables on actions.Secondly Yin and Yang. Balance. For every good there is evil and for every evil there is good. Ultimatly the force is philosphical. And as we all know philosphy excels at giving men headaches and making them go insane. ;):huh:" (w00t)

 

One last thing. I think that you guys need to reconsider your thoughts on the end of Kotor2. Maybe we need to take a hint from the fact that they incorperated so much philosophy and apply that to the ending. Just a thought. :lol:

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You're a little late, we've had a twenty-page discussion about it already (<{POST_SNAPBACK}>)!

 

The conclusion I came to (feel free to read the thread and make your own) is that the philosophy of The Force is not even given the amount of thought that the contributors to this thread have given it. It is not even an after-thought; so, consequently, when we try to unravel the quiddity of this imaginary concept (which -- naturally -- prevents us from direct observation and scientific experimentation) we have only the self-contradictory descriptions in Kreia / Atris / Traya / Jedi Council / individual Jedi members.

 

I have noted (and recorded, in the above-mentioned thread) some of the more heinous contrdictions: some in the same speech of a character, in adjacent paragraphs!

 

Because of this, I concluded that the Force is indeed a (malevolent) despotic being, that manipulates the universe via the Force for its own agenda (presumably to some sort of self-actualization).

 

My utlimate conclusion was that Kreia was in fact correct; subsequently she must be lauded as a True Prophet by the Anti-Force advocates, who seek to end the falsehoods of the Force, to restore true freedom of choice back to the inhabitants of the universe.

:devil:

 

That topic is so complicated that I don't understand what everyone is talking about. <_<

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It seems that if you study anything in depth, that you will find something hypocrytical. In this case different views of the force are contradicting each other.

Such is the way of the world!

 

Wise words indeed......

"I tried the most potent Noise Amplification spell once upon a time. Mavellous spell. I could hear the birds speaking to one another in trees over the horizon, I could hear the rustlings as the clouds rubbed against each other in the sky. I could hear the sound a rainbow makes as it arches it's back over the world. Then a dog barked behind me and I burst my left eardrum."

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[1]If rational beings or living souls have always been subject directly or indirectly to the this malevolent force then how do you explain The Exile? [2]How do you know your right if your always under the influence of the Force? [3]By what infallible stance would you hold your anti-force claims?

[4]The Exile would be the anti anti-force advocacy.

[5]The motive for or to reach some form of profound or significant self actualization is not consistent with the act of exercising dominance or  control over matter and intelligences.

[6]The Force cannot hope to be more of itself in being evil. You cannot overcome delusion without relinquishing evil.

 

What you found to be lack of thought is right. But I can top that- the idea of The Force is filled with unreason

 

Mikhas Numarin

1. I don't understand your question. The Exile was a result of some (heretofor unexplained) event on Malchor V. Please explain what you would like me to explain (if I haven't done so, below).

 

2.Where does morality and Force-Sensitivity coincide in SW? At no point is there any evidence that The Force is anything more than some tangible manifestation of some sort of ether-like substance (as postulated by nineteenth century physicists).

To my knowledge, GL doesn't ever equate morality with The Force, not even in a Zoroastrian tradition (where everything in the universe is composed of "good" and "evil" particles, the more good the better "goodness" of the resultant object, and vice versa). It might also be beyond our explaination (see Plato's Euthyphro dilemma).

 

3. The principle the Anti-Force forces would fight for is simply fredom of choice. (The only reason I concluded that The Force was malevolent was because it was giving the inhabitants of the universe the illusion of free will, whilst serving its own secret agenda. This is a very selfish act, hence the malevolence. Also, it neatly cicumvents the Epicurean paradox, which prevents [The Force, in our dicussion, but normally used to explain God] from being omnescient, omnipotent and completely good.)

 

4.Even if the Exile was not the first convert to Kreia's cause (and why not? We have many historical examples, such as Sual's conversion to Paul on the road to Damascus) this is not a deal-breaker. So we have to fight the Exile: that wouldn't be all that difficult to explain in the narrative: in fact it has already been used in Warcraft III.

 

5. How so? If I want to better myself I control my environment; I read books, write papers and eat food in my quest for betterment. How is this any different, except in scale and complexity?

 

6. Why is evil a delusion? Evil is a moral choice, not a mental illness. Hobbes's Leviathan propounded the doctrine of modern natural right, or bellum omnium contra omnes -- literally "the war of all against all". Granted this Orwellian society wouldn't be a picnic to live in, but that is precisely why The Force would be malevolent to create it (or, arguably, even to permit it as an alternative).

 

Kreia is right!

 

WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS

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OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT

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Another thread like this got to about 30 pages, and nothing was ever figured out. If I could, then I'd be tempted to lock this thread before another controversy comes up.

 

So, anybody want the link to the above-mentioned thread? Let me know, and maybe I'll find the time to dig it out.

Geekified Star Wars Geek

 

Heart of the Force, Arm of the Force

 

"Only a Sith deals in absolutes!"

-Obi-wan to Anakin (NOT advocating Grey-Jedidom)

 

"The Force doesn't control people, Kreia controls people."

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I figure it's called The Force for a reason. It's a force. Smack your hand on the table. If it didn't throw any force back, you'd smack right through it, but you don't. It forces you back, or at least stop you at some point. From some points of view, you could see that as a will not to be crushed. It forces a balance between the hand and the wood so that neither gets destroyed. The Force is something similar, but on a scale we can barely imagine. This Force is just trying to get balance in the galaxy - it's not a grand scheme of things - kindof like the balance between your hand and the table, or even your body and the floor you stand on, if your force is higher than what's being pressed, you'd fall into the ground. Hence - Anakin. He was meant to bring balance to the force, that's why the force created him. He was not created to destroy the Sith or give the light side or dark side an advantage like some weird deity, it just wants to be natural. You're making the same mistake the Jedi Council did.

 

Just my two cents.

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"Another thread like this got to about 30 pages, and nothing was ever figured out. If I could, then I'd be tempted to lock this thread before another controversy comes up."

 

This stuff is the meat of the forums, and you'd rather gorge yourself on all that filth and fat that is so abundantly found around here!? You're insane!

9/30 -- NEVER FORGET!

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I figure it's called The Force for a reason. It's a force. Smack your hand on the table. If it didn't throw any force back, you'd smack right through it, but you don't. It forces you back, or at least stop you at some point. From some points of view, you could see that as a will not to be crushed. It forces a balance between the hand and the wood so that neither gets destroyed. The Force is something similar, but on a scale we can barely imagine. This Force is just trying to get balance in the galaxy - it's not a grand scheme of things - kindof like the balance between your hand and the table, or even your body and the floor you stand on, if your force is higher than what's being pressed, you'd fall into the ground. Hence - Anakin. He was meant to bring balance to the force, that's why the force created him. He was not created to destroy the Sith or give the light side or dark side an advantage like some weird deity, it just wants to be natural. You're making the same mistake the Jedi Council did.

 

Just my two cents.

 

Interesting view... >_< I think in the case of this game.. the *table* will be the Force.. the * hand* will be Kreia.. and the Exile is the *tool* to break the table..

 

Kreia wants to destroy the force.. but the force is to strong to just crushed with your hand.. so she looks for a tool to do it *The Exile*... the problem is that in the process of building up the tool *Exile*.. she discovers that the tool she is using is making the force stronger * The table *... So in the end she finish with a tool that can only be use to repair the force * The Table * and not to destroyed. Then she try

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Another thread like this got to about 30 pages, and nothing was ever figured out. If I could, then I'd be tempted to lock this thread before another controversy comes up.

 

So, anybody want the link to the above-mentioned thread? Let me know, and maybe I'll find the time to dig it out.

Already beat you to it, Phantom:

You're a little late, we've had a twenty-page discussion about it already (<{POST_SNAPBACK}>)!

:cool:

OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS

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OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT

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I figure it's called The Force for a reason. It's a force. Smack your hand on the table. If it didn't throw any force back, you'd smack right through it, but you don't. It forces you back, or at least stop you at some point. From some points of view, you could see that as a will not to be crushed. It forces a balance between the hand and the wood so that neither gets destroyed. The Force is something similar, but on a scale we can barely imagine. This Force is just trying to get balance in the galaxy - it's not a grand scheme of things - kindof like the balance between your hand and the table, or even your body and the floor you stand on, if your force is higher than what's being pressed, you'd fall into the ground. Hence - Anakin. He was meant to bring balance to the force, that's why the force created him. He was not created to destroy the Sith or give the light side or dark side an advantage like some weird deity, it just wants to be natural. You're making the same mistake the Jedi Council did.

Yep, in FarimirK's words, you're calling the Force an "ammo dump" for both sides (Sith and Jedi) to pillage in their ceaseless war of attrition. (Or a small "f" force, in mine. :D )

 

But what if there is some hidden agenda to be served by keeping the Force in balance, something unknown to the Force sensitives ...? They are not free to decide their own fate, they are merely pawns in the space opera ( :D ) that is the SW galaxy, merely for the benefit of the Force.

 

I saw Kreia was right! Free yourselves, free the universe: kill the Force!

OBSCVRVM PER OBSCVRIVS ET IGNOTVM PER IGNOTIVS

ingsoc.gif

OPVS ARTIFICEM PROBAT

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