homosexuality in RPGs

[213374U]

That's what you get when you promote a society in which cold-blooded murder is often present in entertainment, but a nipple snapshot is automatically considered "mature" content and anything more serious than that is still taboo.

[FaramirK]

Being bisexual myself i don't fully understand how people would be 'uncomfortable' playing the role of a character with a different sexuality to their own, but it surely offends some who dislike homosexuality.

 

It's not that I would be "uncomfortable", per se, merely that I don't think I could relate to the character if he/she was exclusively homosexual. Thats why I think Jade Empire handled it well, letting you choose.

 

I figure an acurate number of non-stereotyped, non comic-relief gay characters in games is on its way. But, like gay marriage and however many other rights, it'll be a while coming yet.

 

Well, the homosexual community make up only a very small slice of the population, so their apperance in a game trying to be "realistic" may be non-existant. I don't think games would be as fun without the stereotyping (not derogatory stereotyping, mind you) of characters for emphasis of story. I really like to shy away from games that try too hard to imitate day to day life. None come close to the real thing, which is usually very hard work. I want games to be more fantastic in nature, not simply more wallowing in modern cultures current struggles.

[darth buch]

Both good points. I absolutely agree that the best option would be to choose orientation, as in Jade Empire or Fable.

 

And yes, games wouldn't be as fun without the stereotyping. But only the good-natured stereotyping I played the new Lesiure Suit Larry recently for example, and laughed my ass off at the gay stereotypes. Maybe I was going overboard earlier, but I don't think we're a very small minority. Well, perhaps amongst gamers we are.

[Kalfear]

Being bisexual myself i don't fully understand how people would be 'uncomfortable' playing the role of a character with a different sexuality to their own, but it surely offends some who dislike homosexuality.

 

Hmmm, id be uncomfortable, actually no I wouldnt as I wouldnt play such a game that forced Alternative lifestyles on me. Simple as that. No interest what so ever in Role Playing such a relationship.

 

I personally think JE did it right by giveing you the choice, and then asking you twice to validate the choice before moving into the alternative area.

 

And sorry Buch but you do understand it, hell my gay friends and relatives understand it. None of them intentionally try to make others uncomfortable so dont go into detail about their love lifes (and thats really the only issue involved in such a discussion). They leave their bed rooms in their bed rooms! Outside of it they just normal people.

 

I figure an acurate number of non-stereotyped, non comic-relief gay characters in games is on its way. But, like gay marriage and however many other rights, it'll be a while coming yet.

 

 

Well no idea where you get your information but gay characters in games (that you interact with, not just an npc that gives a quest) no where in the forseeable future. Ive yet to see one company say what your claiming and with no announcements you have to assume "status Quo" is what the rules will be for the moment.

 

And for the record (since you mentioned it) Im Canadian, yas know. The land of promise as its made out by the gay communities in the states. As it stands at this very moment, gay marriage is hardly a decided upon topic and one province has already stated very clearely (alberta..same province Bioware in) that they will use the not with standing clause to NOT allow gay marriages or recognize them in Alberta.

 

So while I personally have no problem (actually not true but my issues tax related, not homosexual related, and this hardly the place to go into canadian tax law discussion) with gay marrages, no one can just assume its comming. United states been VERY clear on the issue and Canada is bogged down in a huge debate with no real victor, as of yet, comeing forth.

 

So no (speaking of North America) gay marriages are not flat out coming in the future. Its being discussed and debated but no final answer been made either way.

 

PS: The gay marriage part isnt a insult at hoimosexuals, I just hate people that state their personal veiws as fact. Darth Buch tried to mislead where the topic stands currently. Hardly as open and shut as he claimed. There is a very real chance gays will NOT be allowed to marry in Canada and the states and will continue to have the same rights as the rest of us only, with no change. There is also a very real chance (in Canada, states have pretty much stated their choice on matter) that gays will get extra rights. no one knows yet.

[11XHooah]

Where do we draw the line? Uh, we don't have to draw any lines. The law is quite clear on where the line is. Homosexuality is not a crime, pedophilia (is that a word?) is. And I absolutely hate when people mention homosexuality in almost the same sentence as pedophilia, as if they were somehow connected.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I write this with as much self restraint as I can muster, I promise!

 

The associatation of pedophilia with homosexuality has a long and tangled history. It is as association that has never been proven in any way -- if we discount those with political agendas and questionable research practices, which I do. However, as is the case with things that people want to believe, it lives on in spite of facts. I am not going to touch the child-murder or the pedophilia aspects of this thread, as I feel that they are erroneous in nature in relationship to the subject matter.

 

It is my opinion that in any instance where the representation of any sexuality is appropriate, then the homosexuality is as appropriate as heterosexuality. To me, it is just that simple.

 

11XHooah asked about the innocent nature of Star Wars, and I have to counter by saying that SW is not innocent at all. We see betrayal, genocide, war, slavery, dishonesty, torture, and the obliteration of entire planets (that's just the films, folks). I firmly believe that a scene of two men or women in love would be well inside expectations set by these standards. I find it quite curious that it seems to be acceptable to show a represenation of a man marrying a women in secret, impregnating her and then later murdering said pregnant wife while following a path of a genocidal nature, but that two women kissing might not suite the innocent nature of the franchise. I mean no offense, 11XHooah, but I do find the logic to be somewhat odd.

 

Taks denigrated the concept of romance or intimacy in role-playing games as a whole. I find that the addition of that sort of tension adds to my interest in the character, apparently in much the same way as it detracts from yours. That simply seems to be a case of to-each-their-own. Simply either don't persue such options or don't buy games with such options -- but unless you plan on soley supporting the entire industry, it would be wise to allow for preferences that are not your own.

 

I greatly enjoyed Fable's comedic take on romantic life, and also the little-available option to be bisexual (and polyamorist, okay, technically polygamist -- but who's counting?). Finally!!! While most of the romances did not further the plot, you ended up with a place to stay, and a spouse that may or may not have a dowery and give you gifts if you treat them well and visit often. One romance was its own subplot which added a level of depth to other elements of the story. Even though most of the romance was comedic in nature it did indeed add to the game, but it could also be completely ignored by those that decided to do so.

 

Enough of my ramblings,

 

Cloris

(edited for some spelling and syntax)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You make a very good point. Perhaps I have been desensitized from all the violent movies that have been produced, which is why I don't find all the killing in Star Wars disturbing.

When I said the Star Wars universe was innocent, I meant that it seems to be toned down enough to show to all viewers. So what I'm saying is that if you put homosexuality into Star Wars games, or even movies, parents will start to question the franchise. I'm sure that many parents would not like their children watching yoda makeout with chewbacca, or something like that. Sorry, just wanted to add some humor :D Personally, I don't really care if they have this option in a Star Wars game. But you get my point, right?

[FaramirK]

watching yoda makeout with chewbacca

 

 

I think the height disparity is going to make that relationship difficult...

[Kalfear]

heh, its kinda funny this topic on this message boards as chances of this getting into Star Wars a billion to one anyways.

 

Star Wars just doesnt deal with this type of subject so Lucas would probably veto it before it ever got off the ground anyways.

[FaramirK]

heh, its kinda funny this topic on this message boards as chances of this getting into Star Wars a billion to one anyways.

 

Star Wars just doesnt deal with this type of subject so Lucas would probably veto it before it ever got off the ground anyways.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, I believe he would. Then again, Disney did...remember the Southern Baptist Disney boycott in the 90's? :D Made me laugh.

[Child of Flame]

Personally, I can't wait for all the lesbian Twi'lek slashfics.

 

Oh...wait...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On topic, only thing I really have to say about homosexuality, and the legal implications it entails, is it can imply some really nasty lawsuits.

 

Hypothetically, say you get into an argument with a guy at a bar, it get's physical, you lay him out.

 

Guy turns out to be gay, guy is also a jackass.

 

Guy decides to get the ACLU to back him up, all of a sudden, rather than being prosecuted for assault, you're being prosecuted for a hate crime.

 

Of course, this isn't really a beef with gay people, so much as the legal system in America in general, and especially hate crimes. There's a lot of ways they can be abused, and along with other 'positive discrimination' (affirmative action, etc.), it seems to promote inequality and strife rather than goodwill.

[SteveThaiBinh]

Hypothetically, say you get into an argument with a guy at a bar, it get's physical, you lay him out. 

 

Guy turns out to be gay, guy is also a jackass. 

 

Guy decides to get the ACLU to back him up, all of a sudden, rather than being prosecuted for assault, you're being prosecuted for a hate crime.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Looks like a good way of deterring stupid fights. Shame on the ACLU for interfering with my natural right to deck anyone who doesn't agree with me.

 

For the Star Wars universe to have no homosexuals is no more or less bizarre than if it had no women, or no men. I'm sure that would arouse comment. Sadly, it's common in the media for many different kinds of people to be invisible.

[Child of Flame]

Hypothetically, say you get into an argument with a guy at a bar, it get's physical, you lay him out. 

 

Guy turns out to be gay, guy is also a jackass. 

 

Guy decides to get the ACLU to back him up, all of a sudden, rather than being prosecuted for assault, you're being prosecuted for a hate crime.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Looks like a good way of deterring stupid fights. Shame on the ACLU for interfering with my natural right to deck anyone who doesn't agree with me.

 

For the Star Wars universe to have no homosexuals is no more or less bizarre than if it had no women, or no men. I'm sure that would arouse comment. Sadly, it's common in the media for many different kinds of people to be invisible.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

In the American legal system, the person who's right is ther person who has the most money...

[FaramirK]

it's common in the media for many different kinds of people to be invisible.

 

The media treats homosexuals as if they were invisible? Since when, Steve? The sixties?

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"Looks like a good way of deterring stupid fights. Shame on the ACLU for interfering with my natural right to deck anyone who doesn't agree with me."

 

Wow, that's like completely missing the point?

[SteveThaiBinh]

The media treats homosexuals as if they were invisible?  Since when, Steve?  The sixties?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Media in the broadest sense. Wasn't there a TV show that was taken off the air because the main character came out as a lesbian? If this has changed, then I'd certainly welcome that. But more generally, the fact that gay characters exist in these media doesn't mean that they are as commonplace, natural and accepted as they are in the real world. If we notice, and comment upon, gay relationships in RPGs, it's because their relative lack in the gaming world is at odds with our experience of reality.

 

"Looks like a good way of deterring stupid fights. Shame on the ACLU for interfering with my natural right to deck anyone who doesn't agree with me."

 

Wow, that's like completely missing the point?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I think it's hitting the more important point, which is that fighting in bars is illegal and that if you attack someone, you have to accept responsibility for it. Protesting that your victim is prosecuting you for a hate crime rather than assault is just a way of making it all somebody else's fault. "It's not my fault, it's that gay's fault."

 

I would hope that if you don't hate gays, the trial would reveal that and you would be found innocent of hate crime and guilty of common assault, but given that hate crime against gays does exist, it seems reasonable that this be tested in a court.

[Drakron]

Media in the broadest sense.  Wasn't there a TV show that was taken off the air because the main character came out as a lesbian? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No.

 

What happens how is that if a series character turns gay/lesbian then it cannot change his/her sexual preference (Willow in Buffy, the Vampire Slayer) so what the media is saying is ...

 

"When you turn gay, you dont turn back".

 

On a personal note, I do find that very irresponsible.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"Well, I think it's hitting the more important point, which is that fighting in bars is illegal and that if you attack someone, you have to accept responsibility for it. "

 

Of course.

 

"Protesting that your victim is prosecuting you for a hate crime rather than assault is just a way of making it all somebody else's fault. 'It's not my fault, it's that gay's fault.'"

 

I don't really agree with that. How is it making it somebody else's fault? To me, it's just saying "I didn't do because he was gay, but because I thought he was a jerk." Would you call protesting that your accused of, say, murder, when "all" you did was assault somebody (I know, a bad example) way of making all somebody else's fault?

 

"I would hope that if you don't hate gays, the trial would reveal that and you would be found innocent of hate crime and guilty of common assault, but given that hate crime against gays does exist, it seems reasonable that this be tested in a court."

 

Unless there was evidence suggesting that it was a hate crime, I don't think it would be reasonable.

[FaramirK]

Media in the broadest sense.  Wasn't there a TV show that was taken off the air because the main character came out as a lesbian? 

 

You mean Ellen? Was it taken off the air?

[Drakron]

Actually I am wrong, it was taken off the air after a year from backlash

 

http://lesbianlife.about.com/od/lesbianact...enDeGeneres.htm

[SteveThaiBinh]

"Protesting that your victim is prosecuting you for a hate crime rather than assault is just a way of making it all somebody else's fault. 'It's not my fault, it's that gay's fault.'"

 

I don't really agree with that. How is it making it somebody else's fault? To me, it's just saying "I didn't do because he was gay, but because I thought he was a jerk." Would you call protesting that your accused of, say, murder, when "all" you did was assault somebody (I know, a bad example) way of making all somebody else's fault?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that hate crimes exist and are a serious problem that society has to tackle. The precise difference between a hate crime and common assault is not always clear, and so I think that can be settled in a court, although I wouldn't rule out another (less expensive) way, if one could be found that's fair and has public confidence. The problem is that it's difficult to distinguish without the thorough consideration that comes in a trial.

 

Murder and manslaughter is an example where it's mainly intent which distinguishes between two crimes which carry very different sentences, and that difference is usually decided in a trial.

[Volourn]

Quite frankly, the whole idea of 'hate crimes' disgust me. Murder is murder no matter the exuse. Whetehr I murder a man out of greed or out of racial hatred should not matter - I should get the same punishment. Since when is a vitim of murder due to greed less worthy of being 'avenged' than one murdered out of racial hatred. Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting. That can go for prejudice against religion, sex, or sexual orientation too.

 

 

"You mean Ellen? Was it taken off the air?"

 

Actually, the original Ellen show was taken off the air; because after the actress originally came out her on screen character all of a sudden became a lesbian and started sleeping with women when for the first 3-5 years of the series she was hetreosexual. And, this characetr wans't some confused 20 year old; but a older woman who sure didn't seem confused in that way. On top of that, the first few years, the show was hilarious; but the alst couple of them after she came out; it was sanctimonious political preaching and so the humour well ran dry. Too bad too.

 

All that said, her new talk show is pretty good and I've watched it a few times. She's found her funny bone again. :D

[Fionavar]

Perhaps we could try to remain focused on the topic at hand, please?

[Musopticon?]

Greenie, you're watching this closely, I bet?

 

Suprisingly non-flamy, by the way. Continue on.

[FaramirK]

Perhaps we could try to remain focused on the topic at hand, please?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So how 'bout them homosexual video game characters?

 

Actually, maybe Jade Empire doesn't count...Sky and Lian were actually bisexual...like Buch and Atomic.

 

What about Alexander and Hephaestion? I think that relationship was tastefully portrayed...maybe there just isn't a big enough market for such issues as homosexuality to be handled seriously in video games.

 

Side note, it's quite humorous that some of the same people who say "homosexuality is repulsive in a video game" like the idea of being able to lead on multiple woman and sleep with them all, and disgarding/decieving them at a whim...

 

...I love psychology.

[darth buch]

One day, one day.

 

Seems to be getting more common now, anyhow. Jade Empire of course. Could you have gay relationships in the Sims? I never really played it.

[Cloris]

One day, one day.

 

Seems to be getting more common now, anyhow. Jade Empire of course. Could you have gay relationships in the Sims? I never really played it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that it is possible, but difficult. *sigh* I don't know for sure, as I aquired The Sims 2 and KOTOR2 the same week -- guess which one has had my attention since!

 

Cloris