Storyline Theory

[ampulator00]

Right on.

 

Bandon was a Sith Lord because he wasn't just an Apprentice, he was an apprentice to the Big Boss Sith Lord. It's been the same with Maul, Tyranus and Vader. All were apprentices to Sidious. All were Dark lrods of the Sith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Good point. HOwever, that means killing Bandon had more consequences that it seems, then.

[Ersinus]

why did killing Bandon have consequences? His place was replaced by Bastila, and after Bastile joined Revan, Malak offered to three Dark Jedi whoever kill Malak will become his apprentice.

[Darth_Gandalf]

It just goes to show how ludicrously weak the Sith Lords were, if they could be creamed so easily. Or maybe it's just because you're Darth Revan.

 

Malak and Bandon were both really easy to kill, so it's not as significant as say, killing Vader would be.

[Aethelred]

i may be mistaken but i'm pretty sure the sith pre-darth bane had one Dark Lord of the Sith but multiple lesser Sith Lords, EG Marka Ragnos was the Dark Lord of the Sith but at the same time Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh were Sith Lords and when Ragnos died Sadow took the title of Dark Lord and ludo kressh then challenged him for it but failed.

 

Also i belive its only AFTER Darth Banes reforms that the apprentice of the Dark Lord is counted as a Sith Lord.

 

like i said though i could be mistaken.

[Meshugger]

One thing I've been asking myself is how the Sith got so powerful in the five years since KotOR, no matter how you ended the game.  I mean, if you chose the Darkside then all well and good, but if you chose the Lightside then I can't see it.

 

Also, in your rampage through KotOR you killed a significant amount of Sith, wiping out their homeworld in the process, killing the Sith Lord and his apprentice and the three sub-leaders on the Star Forge.

 

I just played through the game again and came across an interesting line of dialogue.  I can't remember the exact wording I'll try and recreate it as best I can.

 

When you were talking to Canderous at some point and he's babbling about how the Mandalorians fight for the honour of victory and the glory of battle he lets slip somewhere in there that prior to the Mandalorian War breaking out the Sith approached the Mandalorian Clans and claimed that they new of an enemy worth fighting - the Republic and the Jedi.

 

But the Sith you meet in KotOR are all corrupted Jedi or new disciples of the Darkside, led by Malak.  But Malak and Revan only became Sith after the Mandalorian War.  So who are the Sith who started the Mandalorian War by advising Mandalore of the Republic and the Jedi?

 

These Sith seem alot more formidable than those you actually meet in the game, because they crippled the Republic's defences with not one, but two wars, and decimated the Jedi Order, without even revealing themselves to the Republic or the Jedi.

 

Perhaps these are the leaders of the Sith you encounter in TSL.

 

I apologise for the length of the post and please feel free to rip this theory to shreds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sounds like you're on to something there.

[Darth_Gandalf]

Definitely. Good ideas, all.

 

And Aethelred, my most "Unready" Anglo-Saxon comrade,

 

You are right, there were many Sith Lords. But there stands the difference between Sith Lord and Dark Lord of the Sith.

 

Sith Lord = generic term (ie. Jedi Knight, even when one is a master)

 

Dark Lord of the Sith = top two Sith, master and apprentice

 

Don't you hate complicated semantics?

[ampulator00]

why did killing Bandon have consequences? His place was replaced by Bastila, and after Bastile joined Revan, Malak offered to three Dark Jedi whoever kill Malak will become his apprentice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are right. But what about the time between Bandon and Bastila?

 

Annd remember Bastila wasn't a Sith lord for long if you were light.

[ampulator00]

One thing I've been asking myself is how the Sith got so powerful in the five years since KotOR, no matter how you ended the game.  I mean, if you chose the Darkside then all well and good, but if you chose the Lightside then I can't see it.

 

Also, in your rampage through KotOR you killed a significant amount of Sith, wiping out their homeworld in the process, killing the Sith Lord and his apprentice and the three sub-leaders on the Star Forge.

 

I just played through the game again and came across an interesting line of dialogue.  I can't remember the exact wording I'll try and recreate it as best I can.

 

When you were talking to Canderous at some point and he's babbling about how the Mandalorians fight for the honour of victory and the glory of battle he lets slip somewhere in there that prior to the Mandalorian War breaking out the Sith approached the Mandalorian Clans and claimed that they new of an enemy worth fighting - the Republic and the Jedi.

 

But the Sith you meet in KotOR are all corrupted Jedi or new disciples of the Darkside, led by Malak.  But Malak and Revan only became Sith after the Mandalorian War.  So who are the Sith who started the Mandalorian War by advising Mandalore of the Republic and the Jedi?

 

These Sith seem alot more formidable than those you actually meet in the game, because they crippled the Republic's defences with not one, but two wars, and decimated the Jedi Order, without even revealing themselves to the Republic or the Jedi.

 

Perhaps these are the leaders of the Sith you encounter in TSL.

 

I apologise for the length of the post and please feel free to rip this theory to shreds.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's a great point.

[Darth_Gandalf]

why did killing Bandon have consequences? His place was replaced by Bastila, and after Bastile joined Revan, Malak offered to three Dark Jedi whoever kill Malak will become his apprentice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are right. But what about the time between Bandon and Bastila?

 

Annd remember Bastila wasn't a Sith lord for long if you were light.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Those were the times when Malak was seeking a new apprentice. Just like the time between Darth Maul's death and the selection of Darth Tyranus.

[ampulator00]

why did killing Bandon have consequences? His place was replaced by Bastila, and after Bastile joined Revan, Malak offered to three Dark Jedi whoever kill Malak will become his apprentice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are right. But what about the time between Bandon and Bastila?

 

Annd remember Bastila wasn't a Sith lord for long if you were light.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Those were the times when Malak was seeking a new apprentice. Just like the time between Darth Maul's death and the selection of Darth Tyranus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

With the way Malak handled himself, it seems to me Bastila wasn't that far from ready to take out Malak, if you ask me.

[Darth_Gandalf]

I wouldn't argue with that. Bastila seemed to me to be almost as powerful as Revan. At least, as a light side character. Her dark side powers were stupid as a Sith.

 

But she thought she was more powerful, well, until she acknowledged that you will always be stronger than her. Then she either joined you or had you kill her.

 

But even then, I think she could've taken out Malak. And she was worried about his dark presence overwhelming her.

 

I can tell you all about Malak's "Dark Presence."

 

Santa's got more dark presents than Malak.

[mastaGAW]

When you were talking to Canderous at some point and he's babbling about how the Mandalorians fight for the honour of victory and the glory of battle he lets slip somewhere in there that prior to the Mandalorian War breaking out the Sith approached the Mandalorian Clans and claimed that they new of an enemy worth fighting - the Republic and the Jedi.

 

But the Sith you meet in KotOR are all corrupted Jedi or new disciples of the Darkside, led by Malak.  But Malak and Revan only became Sith after the Mandalorian War.  So who are the Sith who started the Mandalorian War by advising Mandalore of the Republic and the Jedi?

 

These Sith seem alot more formidable than those you actually meet in the game, because they crippled the Republic's defences with not one, but two wars, and decimated the Jedi Order, without even revealing themselves to the Republic or the Jedi.

 

Perhaps these are the leaders of the Sith you encounter in TSL.

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I've basically been saying that idea since I got on the forums that the Sith Lords in TSL are in the background of the original game were manipulating events and helped turn Revan and Malak that idea isbn't original :angry: . Oh well at least I've some people thatfinally agree :D .

[ampulator00]

I wouldn't argue with that. Bastila seemed to me to be almost as powerful as Revan. At least, as a light side character. Her dark side powers were stupid as a Sith.

 

But she thought she was more powerful, well, until she acknowledged that you will always be stronger than her. Then she either joined you or had you kill her.

 

But even then, I think she could've taken out Malak. And she was worried about his dark presence overwhelming her.

 

I can tell you all about Malak's "Dark Presence." 

 

Santa's got more dark presents than Malak. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you ask me, like Malak, she had plenty of chances to "heal" herself with the zappy thing, (I don't know what it is) and Revan still was toe to toe with her. But you gave a good explanation to that. She had crappy Sith Powers...

[Darth_Gandalf]

Yep. Both Bastila and Malak "cheated" in their duels with Revan by using the regenerative things (either the zappy thing for Bastila or the 8 Jedi for Malak), and even then Revan kicked thier trash.

 

What does that say about them as Sith Lords?

[Azure79]

Hi first time poster.

 

Like most of you all I can't wait to find out what happens in KOTOR 2. Instead of doing something productive with my life I find myself perusing forums such as these for little tid-bits of information.

 

There seems to be a lot of speculation on how Revan and Malak were twisted to the dark side. I thought that this was made pretty clear during KOTOR 1. The Rakata were masters of combining technology with the wonders of the Force and as a result many of their creations were semi-sentient including the Star Forge and the computer that controlled the Temple of the Ancients on the Unknown world.

 

The Star Forge itself fed off the negative energies within all life-forms(the dark side of the force) and magnified and twisted the malevolent subconcious to feed and satiate its own hunger. This is why the Infinite Empire created by the Rakata was destroyed and I assume why the Rakata lost their affinity to the Force.

 

I believe Revan and Malak were much like Exar Kun when they were young. Brash, headstrong, overconfident, intelligent and extremely strong in both the martial and mental aspects of the Force. Especially Revan and Exar were similar in that both were extremely curious of what the darkside held and both were confident that they could control and manipulate the dark side to their own goals.

(We all know Malak had doubts and annoyingly talked all too much in the cutscence on Dantooine)

 

Of course Revan and Exar were not EVIL at the time of their youth. They just had their own ideas of what was right and wrong in their own perspectives and had the innate talents and confidence to act upon them.

 

I think Revan during his participation in the Mandalorion wars or before that first came upon the Star Maps in Korriban, recognized the similar architecture in the tombs of Dantooine, and thus started his quest for the Star Forge. He probably went there with the same intentions Exar had when he first visited Korriban, to learn more of the Sith and the Darkside. I think this is when the possible shadowy Sith Lords(as mentioned on this thread) learned of Revan, saw his potential and started to observe him as a potential Sith Lord. Unlike Exar who was approached and seduced by ancient Sith Spirits(was it Naga Sadow? its been a long time since I read the comics).

 

Anyways, Revan and Malak, either during the Mandalorion Wars or shortly before, discover the rest of the Star Maps. When they finally triumph over the Mandalorions they head out to the Star Forge with the parts of the Republic Fleet because they have no idea what might be waiting for them. What better defense then the Republic Fleet? They run into the disruption field and crash on the unknown planet(Remember that Republic Capital Ship behind where the Ebon Hawk lands? I'm guessing that was Revan's command vessel)

 

They proceed to dupe the Elder Rakata and the Rakata led by the One and get to the Star Forge. The Star Forge feeds on the darker sides of Revan and Malak thus twisting them into the Malevolent beings they are at the start of the Sith War. Revan decides to he'd rather conquer the Galaxy than save it and decides to claim the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith. He knows it will inspire memories of the last Sith War and the terror everyone faced then.

 

Thats what I think happened anyways

 

So I think the Sith Lords in TSL were watching Revan, but they themselves didn't really have an idea what the Star Forge was either. Then when Revan and then Malak began to unlock the secrets of the Star Forge, both of them became too powerful too quickly and too strong in the dark side of the Force for the sith lords in TSL to act. Also with the dark side energies of the Star Forge replenishing Revan and Malak and the infinite fleet being produced, how could they hope to openly face Revan and Malak?

 

They had to work slowly and secretly to usurp Revan and Malak. I'm sure their egos would never let them serve under either Revan or Malak. Maybe they had something to do with setting the trap Revan walked into. Maybe they had some hand in the Jedi Council's restructuring of Revan's mind. We know that a powerful Sith Master can even dupe the Jedi Council(Palpy for starters). After the events in Kotor one and the subsequent five years after the Sith Lords' plans finally came into fruition. Maybe we'll find out what did really happen in KOTOR 2.

 

Sorry for the long post!

 

Hope no one goes, 'WTF? I'm not reading all that!'

[JediMastaYoda]

Interesting theory. I'm impressed.

[Darth_Gandalf]

Yes, a very interesting theory, Azure79.

Well done.

 

I am still curious, however, as to how Revan and Malak became associated with the Korriban Sith branch, which obviously could not have been a recent development.

 

Perhaps we'll find out in KOTOR II. Maybe it's just a loose end.

[Sabahattin Dere]

Yes, marvellous theory on how the Sith Lords relate to R&M's fall; what needs to be worked further into is how it came about that in those '5 years', the republic was crushed and the Jedi became all but extinct --and it has to work with both endings of Kotor....

 

With the LS ending it's a bit easier to imagine: Once Malak -the Dark Jedi who grew in power too quickly, and very much out of proportion- was out of the way, tSL began to unfold their own sinister plans; and were successful in crippling the republic, which had lost many Jedi and a good part of its navy forces during the 'Endless Fleet' conflict, and 'the Battle of the Star Forge'. What still remains in the dark is whatever it was that sent the LS Revan -the most powerful Jedi of the Republic- into exile.

 

The DS ending of Kotor I find more problematic, given the present theory on the Sith Lords. If the Sith Lords were terrified by Malak and the Star Forge, then it would have been all the worse for them when Revan himself -a stronger Jedi- took command of both the Star Forge and the Endless Fleet. Perhaps by some secret machinations, they succeeded in sending Revan into exile, but what could it be? Why would they not be able to do do the same ploys with Malak's original Kotor army?

 

another problem is that I doubt whether telling TSL at the beginning how things went during Kotor will lead to radically different stories in the new game. For instance: For the TSL story, Revan probably will play a somewhat limited role, regardless whether you chose the DS ending for Kotor -where he ended the adventure pretty much invincible-, or the LS, where theories for him getting lost on a new Jedi adventure can be easily constructed. So an account has to be provided that will explain how Revan as the Dark Lord became lost, while not resorting to a totally different assessment for the powers of the new Sith Lords that one could imagine in a LS story.

[ged]

Remember what the person in the sith tombs said "We were not the first but we were stronger" he then goes on to refer to a source of their power.

 

It doesn’t seem possible the ancient sith could have had control of the starforge.

I think this could not have been the source of their power for two reasons, firstly, how would they lose control of it, and secondly, how could they not have overrun the republic with such unstoppable might.

If it was not the starforge that was the source of their power then it must have been something else.

 

These may be the ancient sithlords who survived the fall of the sith empire, I like this idea as they seem to work together well and it reminds me of the sith council. These may simply have been powerful sith lords who hid while allowing Revan to head but the republic. The other thing I can think of is that these might be sith like Uthar, who have learned of a sith device of power and used it to empower themselves, like the ancient sith.

[Ever Faith]

Yes, a very interesting theory, Azure79.

Well done.

 

I am still curious, however, as to how Revan and Malak became associated with the Korriban Sith branch, which obviously could not have been a recent development.

 

Perhaps we'll find out in KOTOR II. Maybe it's just a loose end.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Simple through finding the Star Map of Dantoonie they seeked that as prehaps the first planet. Prehaps Malak served under Revan as they would enrolled into the Sith Acdamey( it wasn't all unknown for jedi to join the darkside, the all most always get accepted a sith in kotor said). Thus passing the Naga Shadow test, and passing. Or they could have had Revan or Malak enroll to the Sith as the other one searched the other planets.

 

And I must agree, azure made an interesting theroy.

[Sabahattin Dere]

The other thing I can think of is that these might be sith like Uthar, who have learned of a sith device of power and used it to empower themselves, like the ancient sith.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Interesting but reminiscent *too much* of Revan and Malak. I doubt the same idea can be the basis of a new episode.

[Craftsman]

I wonder if a dev has looked at this board and thought (ahh crap, they got it)

[Azure79]

Thanks for all the positive feedback!

 

I can't really imagine how the devs will possibly deal with all the endings of Kotor 1. That's probably why they're developing the game and I'm sitting here wishfully thinking of all the possibilities.

[Darth_Gandalf]

I don't think Revan and Malak enrolled in the Sith Academy. For one thing, Uthar and Yuthura had never seen them before, not up close at least.

 

And they wouldn't take to kindly to being bossed around by a former pupil.

 

But it is interesting to think of how Darth Revan with the Star Forge could be put out of the picture after KOTOR I.

 

I think there are a few possibilites:

 

1. Revan will be the final Sith Lord in KOTOR II after a DS ending to KOTOR I

(Unlikely; it would be too drastic a change from the LS plot.)

 

2. Revan only regained control of the Sith at the Star Forge. The Sith Lords, with a greater source of power (their secret?!), then muscled Revan and Bastila out of the picture He's either dead, in exile, or plotting a takeover, etc.

 

3. Revan discovered something so important he had to take off for territories unknown on a secret mission of exploration/discovery. While he was gone, the Sith Lords moved in.

 

4. ???

 

What do you all think?

[Azure79]

I've been thinking about Catalyst's original post, about the Sith who approached the Mandalore clans.

 

I remember vaguely from the comics that tell the story of the Sith War led by Exar Kun(Dark Lord of the Sith) and Ulic Qel-Droma(the apprentice). Exar set out to corrupt the Jedi and Ulic was more in charge of the military aspects. (I think, don't really remember) What I do remember is Ulic was attacked, blindsided actually by the Mandalorian Clans while he was stationed on some planet(The Empress Teta system I think). The Mandalorions were very similar to the ones in Kotor, driven into battle and war for the glory, for the magnificent conflict of battle itself. They really had no direction, their only objective was to fight and win.

 

Ulic proceeded to make a deal with Mandalore. They would face each other in single combat and the victor would gain control of the other's army. Ulic won and I think gave direction to the Mandalore clans. Conquer the vast Republic! Annihilate their elite protectors and warriors, the Jedi Knights. A worthy battle in the eyes of hungry Mandalore.

 

Of course the Mandalorian clans were driven back when Ulic and Exar were defeated(Even Mandalore was killed) but they could have re-supplied, trained and reformed under a new Mandalore except this time they had some direction from the start. Battle the Republic!

 

Since Ulic Qel-Droma was officially a Sith Lord at the time he battled Mandalore, maybe this is what Canderous was talking about. The previous Sith War only happened 40 years ago.

 

Or maybe I'm reading way to far into everything <_<