Two Roads Diverged in a Yellow Wood...

[FaramirK]

Regards to Robert Frost.

 

 

 

 

This could be a poll...but I dislike polls. I'm wondering how many people who loved KOTOR 1 want a KOTOR series that is a continuous story, as opposed to those who merely want the games to "orbit the same sun but invlove different planets each time".

 

I remember back in the NWN forums that many people were adamantly opposed to ever having to see Aribeth (OR anyone else from NWN's OC) again, and instead for the NWN Expansions to be completely different stories and characters in the same universe/game-structure.

 

So, two points of discussion.

 

1) You would rather the KOTOR series be realised as a familiar level up system and universe but with each installment starting you as a new level one Character in a new story arc, possibly (but not nessesarily) hinting at events in a previous game.

 

2) You are attached to the characters in KOTOR 1 & 2, and desperately want their story to continue without limiting your ability to roleplay.

 

(Feel free to copy and paste either point as a start off, so people know which point you are defending).

 

Point 1)'s greatest strength is that every game, you get to start from scratch, be completely suprised with the story and leave room for multiple endings.

 

Point 2)'s greatest strength is that you become deeply involved with your characters, and the game series truely becomes an epic story people fall in love with.

 

The main problem, as Bioware discovered in NWN is that (No spoilers here, don't worry) in trying to create multiple, unique endings, they had really screwed themselves in trying to make a sequel, because the two endings were contradicting! A sequel couldn't contain the option for both endings to have been true without the game becoming two seperate games. This problem is perfectly illustrated in the Command & Conquer games. Red Alert 2 had to choose a winner, even though either team could "win" in Red Alert 1.

 

Point 2 will always limit the openness of a Roleplay experience. After thousands of Revans and Exiles have been created and played through, you can't make a sequel that caters to everybodies individual path through KOTOR 1.

 

I, however, choose point 2, because I love Balduresque stories. And I would love KOTOR 3 to have the courage to do two things.

 

1) Either the Exile and Revan were both good, or they were both evil. Not one or the other. Thats the first non-negotiable the story should take into account.

 

2) Admit that the leveling in both games was to ofast, and create a system like Icewind Dale (or Baldur's Gate) where you control an entire party. Have Revan AND the Exile in Kotor 3, and have the opertunity to customise each one at the start to be like the people you played in KOTOR 1 & 2. Then, you can choose which other henchmen you want to come with you. Have TWO PC's, not one. Revan and the Exile can't be turned into NPC's once they've been the players character. It just doesn't work.

 

Then, you are in control of the two characters you are so involved in, and the story continues, unabated, with either a light or dark ending. And if it's Dark? I think Revan and the exile should finally turn on each other (You have to choose which one you will control), and the loser be dead and gone FOREVER.

 

That...my friends, would be an awesome game indeed.

 

I'm against Point 1), so I'm looking forward to hearing a fan of that idea speak up. AS for me, I'll be defending/doscussing point 2)

[Darth Frog]

As regards importing a character from KotOR I/II: this has no chance of working even if the character charts/progressions are thoroughly overhauled to make some sort of sense. At the end of KotOR I you are level 20..25 and at the end of KotOR II lvl 25..32, you have oodles of feats/powers and plenty of high-grade equipment. How could such a character be developed any further?

 

Without hyper-inflated XP you'd finish somewhere in the region of level 10..15, and in that case a HotU-style continuation would indeed be possible. While we're at it, I'd like a saner progression for vitality points. From 12 to 260 (KotOR I) or 37 to 633 (KotOR II)? That's silly whichever way you look at it. Attributes make more sense: from an average 12.5 at the beginning to an average of 13.5..14 is perfectly plausible.

 

As regards having two PCs: I don't like this. I prefer having one PC that I can identify with during the game, not schizophrenia-style style swapping of mental task context.

 

As regards Revan/Exile: the Exile is a bit player and expendable, he/she did nothing remarkable except flying around in Revan's ship for a few hours and offing three obscure Sith Lords. He/she would make a good NPC for old times' sake but the PC should be Revan or a completely new character (preferred). Of course I'd like to know what happened to Revan but that doesn't mean that we have to play her again. In fact, following Revan's trail would allow the game to get by without inventing a new kind of stone/starmap. I liked TSL's take on this, BTW, because it looked reasonable and natural.

[FaramirK]

I wouldn't have a problem with just "ignoring" their mistake and totally rehauling the Level up system. I'm kind of tired of adults becoming Jedi anyway, its just not canon. If Anakin was to old to start (Revan, Exile, Luke are exceptions) why can all your henchmen suddenly become Jedi?

 

I'd rather they just start you off as a Jedi, and focus the leveling up more on getting better and better at something, like blocking damage or repair than turning you into some demi-god within a year (game time). Keep your Vitality the same throughout, just get better and better at not taking damage. This would be more realistic.

 

Thoughts?

[D.C.]

I'd like both of them to be in the game, but as non-player characters.

[FaramirK]

I'd like both of them to be in the game, but as non-player characters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As I said above, if they are NPC's, it ruins the game, because everyones Revan and Exile are different.

 

Thanks for your on-topic opinion though.

[Darth Frog]

I'd rather they just start you off as a Jedi, and focus the leveling up more on getting better and better at something, like blocking damage or repair than turning you into some demi-god within a year (game time).  Keep your Vitality the same throughout, just get better and better at not taking damage.  This would be more realistic.

 

Thoughts?

 

With a slight twist the TSL scheme (some base value + delta per level) might work. So a Guardian might start out with 120 VP, a Sentinel with 100 VP, a Consular with 80. Tone down the per-level increases, so that after 20 levels the VP are at most doubled, and even that only if all attribute points are pumped into CON. The values are only examples; the base values probably need to be quite a bit higher since a level 30 G/WM does 400 damage per combat round on average and you'd expect a non-grunt enemy to be in the same ballpark.

 

But that would throw a hydrospanner ( " ) into the works of the d20 system. A high level Guardian has six attacks per round compared to at most two for a low-level one, and damage per attack is probably double even if you tone it down considerably (currently the ratio is one to ten). So if you look at it his way then even a toned-down highlevel char does at least ten times as much damage per round as the low-level char. Having the high-level char fall to an equal enemy in a single combat round would be unfun, but it would be equally unfun if the low-level char had to hit an enemy twenty times. So there's a clash already, the VP change creates echos in the Force ...

[Darth Frog]

As I said above, if they are NPC's, it ruins the game, because everyones Revan and Exile are different.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No problem, the new game could import an old savegame in order to pull out the specifics without further user interaction.

[Ramira]

As I said above, if they are NPC's, it ruins the game, because everyones Revan and Exile are different.

 

Thanks for your on-topic opinion though.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Revan and the Exile weren't really exceptions, they already were Jedi before their personal mental breaks. A weak argument would be that the others could be Force Adepts or whatever since all but Mira had previous training or exposure to either Sith or Jedi teachings. But I had a problem seeing Jedi on their character sheets too.

 

In regard to point 2... I'm not sure how that would work exactly. The way the game handles party members now there wouldn't be a difference between Revan the PC and Revan the NPC at least as far as running around and whacking things is concerned.

 

If you mean spliting the game into several acts which would alternate between the Exile and Revan then yeah, I could see it. What I don't quite see is why two LSers would turn on each other. Or even two DSers (in the short term game time) both of which are excellent strategist and tacticians.

 

Eh, just my two creds. Still an interesting idea.

[FaramirK]

If you mean spliting the game into several acts which would alternate between the Exile and Revan then yeah, I could see it.  What I don't quite see is why two LSers would turn on each other.  Or even two DSers (in the short term game time) both of which are excellent strategist and tacticians.

 

Eh, just my two creds.  Still an interesting idea.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I said "If Dark, they turn on each other". The splitting the game would work, but I'd prefer not to do that.

 

If what Darth Frog said about coying the info from a save game file was possible, I wouldn't mind the Exile being an NPC at all.

[11XHooah]

I would really enjoy being a new character, but this time with nothing to hide, no "hidden past" nonsense, just a plain old Jedi. I also think it would be cool if you started out as a padawan, and you train with your master to become a Jedi Knight. Then, before your training is complete, the Sith bombard your Jedi temple, leaving you alive, and perhaps some of your fellow padawans. Then you can start your quest to defeat the Sith, and you find out about Revan.

 

Notice I mentioned that your training is not complete. I bring this up because a Jedi who is not fully trained can be more susceptible to the Dark Side than one who is fully trained and proficient in the Jedi ways. So in the game, you could choose whether you want to complete your training and follow the light, or follow a darker path.

 

Sorry if this sort of went off topic This post ended up being more of a "What I would like to see in KOTOR III" kind of thing.

[tanstaafl28]

"...and I --I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference."

 

Sorry, couldn't help myself... ;-)

[jaguars4ever]

"...and I --I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Yst]

On the one hand, I agree that further level progression would seem insane, as with KotOR II, we've pretty much capped out the existing system, and we've become the most powerful force-user in the universe. Normal humans are completely helpless against us, and the Sith Lords have been destroyed, or we are the greatest of the Sith, as the case may be. Who would we fight in the next game, if we progressed further?

The "true Sith" beyond the reaches of the outer rim

? Even if they did that, the system would still be capped, and would need to be virtually reinvented from scratch, which would raise the question...why did the characters lose all their key force powers spontaneously, and gain seemingly unrelated ones?

 

But on the other hand, yet another instance of the "you were a powerful veteran jedi, but somehow you ended up back at level 1" character development trope would seem pretty perverse.

 

Really, I don't know what could be done. The only reasonable option I can see is playing characters who truly are NOT world-changing figures like Revan and the Exile in future KotOR games. Perhaps games with more of the feel of the first half of BG1, for a change (i.e., you really do feel like just a young adventurer making his way in the world for the first time). The world changing war veterans have been milked for all they're worth.

[FaramirK]

"...and I --I took the one less traveled by,

And that has made all the difference."

 

Sorry, couldn't help myself... ;-)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No need to apologize. Have a cookie.

 

11xHooah - Thats what I liked about Fable. No hidden past. You new were you came from and you could take the wheel and go your own way. Although I will admit that they rather overemphasised the whole "growing up" thing. Your childhood lasted like 5 minutes, and there was no sense of Epic timescale about your character aging.

[Aishur-Rim-Nisheshu]

I too would like another installment with new characters and settings. Just as I suspect what Bioware intended for KoTOR - a stand alone story.

 

IMO , the problem with carry over characters and plots is that everybody would have very high expectations and hopes, that the finished product would have difficulty living up to. And also the main story arc of the game would have to revolve around pre-determined dictums set by its predecessors, making new and perhaps even more exciting plot directions difficult to execute.

[Marka Ragnos]

As I said above, if they are NPC's, it ruins the game, because everyones Revan and Exile are different.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No problem, the new game could import an old savegame in order to pull out the specifics without further user interaction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

but you see. what about those who do not have the previous installments? they would have to go out and buy those installments.

[FaramirK]

As I said above, if they are NPC's, it ruins the game, because everyones Revan and Exile are different.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No problem, the new game could import an old savegame in order to pull out the specifics without further user interaction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

but you see. what about those who do not have the previous installments? they would have to go out and buy those installments.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Dedicated fans deserve more.

[metadigital]

On the one hand, I agree that further level progression would seem insane, as with KotOR II, we've pretty much capped out the existing system, and we've become the most powerful force-user in the universe.  ...

... But on the other hand, yet another instance of the "you were a powerful veteran jedi, but somehow you ended up back at level 1" character development trope would seem pretty perverse. (sic.)

 

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As mentioned above, the vitality/force progression was just silly: Traya had over 1000 HP in the final battle, and I had 600+ force points.

 

I have always thought that restarting at a lower level/losing levels can be explained by lack of practice/gainful adventuring (i.e. the use it or lose it rationale.)

 

I too found the battles very un-challenging. Buff with speed, cast a stasis and spam force wave -- repeat. I don't have a problem with loads of easy kills (look at the Jedi making short work of droids in early episodes), and some of the battles were quite well designed: I'm thinking specifically of the Oderon second party

at the tomb

. Still, there is a lot of room for improvement. I like suggestions like the Z axis and variable terrain and even adding extra skillsets so that AI might function.

 

Perhaps the d20 system is really creaking -- especially since we're now discussing epic characters. A 20 sided die is an approximation used decades ago for hand rolling percentages for characters that hardly ever made levels with double digits. With computers it is perfectly feasible to devise a better method (if only to use percentages, or a "d100", to decrease the incremental improvements each level -- anyone remember 18 00 strength? :cool: ).

 

Personally, I can't believe that there aren't any sci-fi RPGs around. (Let's not play another elf/dwarf/orc game -- there are plently already out there.) But the Star Wars RPG seems to be lacking some balance, it is true. Perhaps if there were some competition, then we wouldn't end up with half-finished rush jobs, like KotOR 2. "

[FaramirK]

anyone remember 18 00 strength?  :cool: ).

 

 

Oh yeah! I also remember having to use a random number generator to get your ability points! (Baldur's Gate) Man I ahted that.

 

Best I ever got for my human Bhaalspawn was 18/65 strength, if I remember correctly.

[Jedi Valius]

As I said above, if they are NPC's, it ruins the game, because everyones Revan and Exile are different.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No problem, the new game could import an old savegame in order to pull out the specifics without further user interaction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

but you see. what about those who do not have the previous installments? they would have to go out and buy those installments.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Dedicated fans deserve more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What if you just uninstalled the other 2 KOTORs and all the saved data. Then what? <_< You're screwed?

[FaramirK]

As I said above, if they are NPC's, it ruins the game, because everyones Revan and Exile are different.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No problem, the new game could import an old savegame in order to pull out the specifics without further user interaction.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

but you see. what about those who do not have the previous installments? they would have to go out and buy those installments.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Dedicated fans deserve more.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What if you just uninstalled the other 2 KOTORs and all the saved data. Then what? <_< You're screwed?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well...never mind, I can't argue that, its a good point. Touche.

 

I still think the 2 PC's thing is a good idea. The whole Icewind Dale thing. That could even be expanded so that you can choose which NPC's you take with you in KOTOR 3, like in Throne of Bhaal.

 

I hope a Dev is reading this... <_<

 

Hear me Obsidian/Lucas Arts? I still have faith in your abilities. Polish KOTOR 2 and develop the bejeezus out of KOTOR 3.