Obsidian and KOTOR Customers!

[Guest MacleodCorp]

Obsidian Entertainment can end up being a great franchise. As many of us online know, there are problems with the game Knights of The Old Republic: The Sith Lords. For the past several weeks, we the fans have complained about issues, and have only heard recently about a game patch.

 

If we all work together, we the customers and you the programers at Obsidian, can let Lucas Arts hear our voice. However, we must all create an online petition, which supports the writers and programers at Obsidian, so they can convince Lucas Arts to complete and release a KOTOR II game patch. NOW!

 

If Obsidian supports it's customers of today and tomorrow, I believe us the fans will purchase future software from them. We must with one loud voice send a message, which will rock the foundation of Lucas Arts.

 

At the moment, there is a lot of anger floating around these forums, and we all have a right to be angry. Both Obsidian and their customers deserve answers to why the KOTOR II patch is taking too long to reach the consumers. Lucas Arts has to relieze that Obsidian's reputation is on the line, and we the customers support their efforts now and in the future.

 

If there is to be a KOTOR III, and if Obsidian gets the job, they need our support. However, they need to give us the customer their support as well.

 

-----------------

 

"Let us stand with one voice!"

"At last we shall revail our selves to Lucas Arts!"

"At last we shall be heard!"

[GhostofAnakin]

Obsidian Entertainment can end up being a great franchise. As many of us online know, there are problems with the game Knights of The Old Republic: The Sith Lords. For the past several weeks, we the fans have complained about issues, and have only heard recently about a game patch.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What do you mean "only heard recently about a game patch"? That announcement has been on the Obsidian main page since late Feb/early March. In fact, we've known that a patch was in the works approximately as soon as 1 week after the PC version was released.

 

Question now is when will Lucasarts give the final approval in the process to release this patch.

[Pa3PyX]

I think we'd do best to sign the existing petition (http://www.petitiononline.com/kotor2/); there's about 7500 signatures there, but with the amount of sales on this game, I think that still represents a minority. Needs to be around 100000.

[Guest Dowie100]

its a good idea

 

But I have completely lost Faith in Lucasarts, and am close to with Obsidian as well

 

As far as I am concerned Lucasarts are a completely ****ed up company that has really gone to the dogs, what happened to the good games, now its all just Heres anouther crap game based on the new trilogy its coming on the PS2, Xbox, PC, Gameboy, Mobile Phone, and your Toasters,

 

and guess what everyone of them is ****, they are terrible, simply painfull to play, and because of all the concentration on them the decent games suffer, and Kotor2 is the result, a great game, that could have been a timeless classic

 

 

Sorry for rambling on, lol

[Master Dahvernas]

Poetic, but utterly futile.

 

Why? This is why:

 

Lucas Arts has to relieze that Obsidian's reputation is on the line, and we the customers support their efforts now and in the future.

 

If there is to be a KOTOR III, and if Obsidian gets the job, they need our support. However, they need to give us the customer their support as well.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

LA knows that most of the wrath gamers have will be put on OE and it really doesn't matter if we don't buy future LA products... At least, PC products... Because KOTOR III, regardless of who does it, will most likely be an XBox 2 product first just like the original and TSL were and then a PC port because consoles are the major cash cows of publishers now and in the near future. LA will rake in the dough via XBox 2 sales, so it doesn't matter if PC gamers get upset.

 

Face it.

 

PC games are dying. I don't care if you've played games for 20-30 years starting with the Commodore 64. This is 2005, and consoles have brought gaming to the masses and as a consequence, this is where the emphasis is going to be from now on with PC markets and sales being an afterthought. Hell, PC games rank third after consoles and hand helds respectively. That is what is most disheartening of all... But I accept it.

 

You can "rage, rage against the dying of the light" all you want, but in the end, it won't make a bit of difference as far as LA and OE (to some extent) are concerned.

 

What would make a difference is if CONSOLE players boycotted KOTOR III and other CONSOLE games because that is publisher's bread and butter and where significant drop in sales will make them sit up and take notice.

[DarthSchlong]

I can't imagine that OE would want to work with LucasArts again after the way this game turned out. If that is true then some other developer will be making KotOR III and I will not be purchasing it. The only reason I purchased KotOR II was because OE was "blessed" by Bioware.

 

Because of this blessing by Bioware, I am willing give OE the benifit of the doubt on KotOR II and place the lions share of the blame on LucasArts. I will be waiting for NWN2 to make my final judgement on OE but I think Atari is the publisher on that one and my opinion of them is not much better than LucasArts so I hope OE has gained something from KotOR and not put themselves in this position with a publisher again.

[Judge Hades]

I normally give a new game company, developer or publisher, 3 games before I right them off permanently and it has to be three games in a row that are bad or do something tremendously stupid. LucasArts releasing KotOR 2 in this condition fit in my "Tremendously Stupid" catagory. LucasArts has lost this customer and unless they have someone very impressive line up with at least 2 full years development time for KotOR 3 I will not be buying future games from LA.

 

There are very few game companies that I no longer buy from. EA, Ubisoft, Troika, and Blizzard just to name a few.

[Shalynn Lors]

There are very few game companies that I no longer buy from.  EA, Ubisoft, Troika, and Blizzard just to name a few.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then you can't buy many games. EA owns almost "anything" out there (or at least parts of game companies). Troika no longer exists, so I guess no one is buying games from them anymore. And Blizzard is one of the very few companies patching their games in a "perfect" state. Even Starcraft got patched again lately and it's SEVEN years old! Never heard of a company caring so long about their products. Zero problems in games from that company. Actually everyone should follow their example, would be paradise then.

[Guest Dowie100]

I normally give a new game company, developer or publisher, 3 games before I right them off permanently and it has to be three games in a row that are bad or do something tremendously stupid.  LucasArts releasing KotOR 2 in this condition fit in my "Tremendously Stupid" catagory.  LucasArts has lost this customer and unless they have someone very impressive line up with at least 2 full years development time for KotOR 3 I will not be buying future games from LA.

 

There are very few game companies that I no longer buy from.  EA, Ubisoft, Troika, and Blizzard just to name a few.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Blizzard, Why, Why Blizzard are like the best, Warcraft 3 was simply amazing, the rest I understand, though Troika don't even exist anymore lol

[JamieKirby]

Well, If Obsidian do develop Kotor III (if they one is gonna be made) Lucasarts need to give them a realistic time table to complete

[Mesa Red]

As with many of the topics in this forum I can think of quite a bit to say in this thread. But I will try to be brief.

 

Console v PC debating has gone on to the tune of the demise of PC games for many years. Perhaps it will happen, I really don't know for sure.

 

There are advantages to both but, it seems unless you subscribe to something like XBox Live you will have difficulty getting a patch for KotOR2, whereas with the PC it is pretty much given it will be a download. Would this not apply to any game that requires a patch for a console game?

 

The state of games today in both arenas seems to be get the beta2 version in the customer's hands and lets see what we need to fix in the next iteration of the game the customers will pay us for. My family owns two consoles and a PC and from what my kids tell me the console games can have nearly as many problems as the PC games.

 

My problem is I think I can see both sides of the issue. Games for the consoles are fairly straight forward. Once the game is in, the system is dedicated to running that software and little to nothing else. A game designed for the PC does not have that luxury because there are an infinite number of system configurations a given user can have; most have applications running in the background; firewalls and AV software and some version of OS all of which can be mixed and matched to a great extent. Not a developer's paradise I should think.

 

However, having said all of that, my position on the console v PC debat is simiply this; if developers stop making games for the PC I will stop playing games. Or, will continue to play only the games I own now from time to time. I cannot see myself supporting the console gaming industry because of the limitations I perceive.

 

KotOR 2 is a good game that could have been great as has been stated many times throughout LA and OE forums. In this instance, both platform users were 'cheated', in my opinion. I hope this is a 'glitch' and will not become the 'norm'. Hopefully more companies will become like Blizzard and BioWare when it comes to the initial product and post release support. I guess we shall see.

 

Mesa Red

[Master Dahvernas]

However, having said all of that, my position on the console v PC debat is simiply this; if developers stop making games for the PC I will stop playing games. Or, will continue to play only the games I own now from time to time. I cannot see myself supporting the console gaming industry because of the limitations I perceive.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are the only other person besides myself that I have seen in my internet travels who, as a gamer, has actually said what I feel is the key to making gaming companies and publishers sit up and take notice.

 

You nailed it on the head.

 

If we don't like something, stop buying the product.

 

HOWEVER... The big Catch-22 is that most gamers will NEVER stop playing games, regardless of platform, but especially console players for the reasons we discussed above. The same goes for PC gamers who think devs and publishers walk-on-water and it is perfectly okay for them to give consumers beta versions of games at full retail prices (these are the posters who flame people like us whenever we present civil, valid complaints about the shoddy products we pay for like KOTOR2).

 

Game companies have consumers... gamers at least... by the short-hairs because they KNOW we will never give up our hobby. Period. Hence, they can treat us like crap and continue to do so unless a lot of us just grow up and learn to live without like you said.

 

I am at that point in that I have been gaming since the days of the Commodore 64, I've owned various consoles and also a gaming PC.

 

However, what is going on in the industry (as a whole) is just not something I feel is going to get any better and is going to focus more on cross-platform simplicity and less complicated gameplay which for someone who is in their 30s (vs. 14, 15) is not very appealing since I want complex and challenging games that the PC can offer like flight sims, military sims, etc etc. I just do not see that level of sophistication continuing on any platform because the more complex a game is made, the more it costs and as we know, big business is all about cutting costs yet still (unrealistically) demanding windfall profits.

[dabise]

I'll admit, I have been a PC gamer for a decade now. Every game that came out was always better on the PC and consoles couldn't handle the complexity of PC games and therefore were PC only games.

 

 

The future is the console. It is inexpensive compared to a PC. It runs games much more smoothly than a PC and I've never owned a console game that had "show-stopper" bugs in it.

 

 

PC games always try to push the latest technology. I HATE that concept. You get a brand new computer system and a game already forces you to upgrade or play with several features turned off for frame rates. Also the driver issues inherant with PC games is enough to make me sick these days.

 

 

So a few years back I got myself a PS2 and a Gamecube. The games are great on these consoles. I have a computer right now that can run ANY work-related application and it is complete overkill. However it doesn't run all the best games. I'd have to get a new system every 6 months at 1500 bucks a shot to keep up or I can buy a console that will last an average of 4 years for 200 bucks.

 

Console gaming is far superior to PC gaming with it's lower frustration levels. I've never had a console game that became unplayable yet I've had PC games become unplayable. Upgrades to DirectX and drivers have made many of my older games unplayable.

 

In all honesty, I hope that one day PC gaming goes down the tubes and computers are once again used for what they were made for, work applications. Soon a console will come out that will be able to support the complex games and when that happens PC gaming is going to be destroyed. It is sad, but the way the game producers just HAVE to push the technologies for the latest hardware is really getting on my nerves as the games become eye candy and nothing more.

 

This is the last computer I'll buy for many years. It runs Autocad, MS Office, C++, Java Development Kit, Visual Basic and it can burn my projects to CD and DVD. It will do so for the next 5 years most likely. I can play music in the background while I work and surf the net for any information I need.

 

A console is built to play games. Games are developed solely based on it's hardware specs and I never have to look at the minimum requirements for a game. As long as it has the console logo on it, it will run.

 

People look at patches as something great for the PC. I look at them as a crutch. I've had KotOR2 for over a month now and I've had my fun with it and the patch is STILL not out yet. I really don't care if it ever comes out honestly. It will not affect me in the slightest. What this did was turn me into a console gamer from a dedicated PC gamer.

 

Also Hades. I really don't get you sometimes. You say that you don't like blizzard now? I've always looked at blizzard as the gaming company every other company strives to be. I've never had problems with their games. Diablo, Diablo2, Warcraft, Warcraft 2, Warcraft 3, Warcraft 3: The Frozen Throne. Each one was an instant classic and oozed quality.

[Master Dahvernas]

dabise

 

You bring up some interesting points.

 

I'm torn between the two.

 

I'm also at a point in my life... 30s... Where gaming isn't the end-all, be-all of my existence as it used to be and is for a lot of younger people. Games are a form of entertainment and not how I define myself.

 

I do give consoles credit for their ease-of-use. This is how they are marketed as well.

 

However, what is interesting is that we have a kind of Gordian knot going on with PC technology always advancing -- which you hate -- Because this is actually what propels advacements in console systems, ironically.

 

Here is the thing:

 

If consoles become more like high-end gaming PCs in terms of hardware... Like the proposed XBox 2 and PS3 are going to be... Then I am hoping that game developers will start to USE that more "advanced" technology and start making games that ARE complex and that aren't limited to the hardware specs that most console games are currently limited too. This is the only bright-light I can see at the end of the tunnel...

 

But like I said above, the more complex a game is the longer it takes to make and the more money has to be put into it, and publishers like EA, Ubisoft and others just are not into that as much as they used to. It's all about profits and it's all about quantity over quality. Hell, TSL is a prime example of this for LA.

 

As sad as this sounds, I don't think we are going to see another game with the size, scope and complexity that Bioware had with the original KOTOR -- This goes for any console game and not just SW or RPGs.

 

KOTOR took three whole years... And it shows. It is still one of the best CRPGs on ANY platform in my humble opinion, SW fan or not.

 

I don't think we are going to see this level of quality from the big publishers in the future and it is only going to get worse as console players dictate the market so-to-speak because here we have another Catch-22 in that there are a ton of adults -- like you and me -- Who like games, but also want complex games like KOTOR...

 

But we're not going to be getting them because (once again) they take too long, are too expensive AND the majroity of console players don't want those kinds of games as well. Console players are mostly pre-teen to 20s males as far as demographics go. They don't want "thinking" games. They want all out action games and games that are easy to pick up and play. KOTOR is NOT that an easy a game to pick up once you first try it given all the D&D rules AND the fact that it takes a lot of control -- the combat -- Out of the hands of the player is another factor why games like KOTOR just will not be favorable in the near future from my perspective... But this doesn't leave us with any PC alternatives because like you, myself and others have said... PC games are in fact dying whether people want to admit it or not, unfortunately.

[Russki Bear]

Errrr, you say they are dying, I say the market has grown a bucketload for consoles where the PC is remaining fairly steady - else NVidia and ATi would be in the ****, and AMD and Intel wouldn't be selling $1300AU processors (ooohhhh....P4 EXTREMEly Expensive Edition, funnily enough I steered clear and got an AMD. I can be cynical. Quite.). I also beleive that if people don't develop for the PC at all then there will be a great loss in innovation.

 

Some of the greatest RPGs I have played were by Squaresoft on the SNES (Super Nintendo). They were awesome. The SNES actually had a large amount of RPGs available even in Australia. That bloody Piece of **** PS1 introduced snazzy 3D graphics and the average CONSOLE game quality went through the floor. Release after release of expensive utter crap. I honestly couldn't beleive that people were buying the ****. But they did, for some reason.

 

Yeah anyway, I don't count the PC out yet. Maybe we'll see a movement of open source games starting up? Wait....we already have.

[adrich81]

Let's face it - anyone releasing console games with show stopping bugs is shooting themselves in the head. You can't patch the game and odds of people buying again are small. The big gripe I have with consoles is that they are too restrictive. From a hardware perspective you can't upgrade a console so you're stuck with whatever Microsoft or Sony want you to have. With a PC you can customise it to suit your budget and tastes. Far from dying, I think the PC is finally coming into its own. For example, my pc is a games platform, office, hifi and now home theatre. The DVD support on consoles is at best awful and has no hope of replacing a standalone dvd player, whereas a pc can incorporate so many different functions. Given the amount of money generated by pcs (if you include gaming hardware and software) the market is far to lucrative for developers to turn their backs on. The other important advantage of a pc is that it is a unified platform, so any pc game will work on it. With a console, you are tied to that brand. Backwards compatibility is never guaranteed and if the game you want to play is released for the other brand that's just tough.

[Master Dahvernas]

You're both forgetting we are comparing two different things when discussing console vs. PC:

 

Games sales and hardware sales.

 

Consoles destroy PC games sales -- always have -- and that is unfortunately what big publishers look at more than anything else these days because publishers aren't hardware manufactuers.

 

It is true that hardware sales fuel PC technological innovations, but that is an entirely different market. This is why I said PC games are dying in terms of game sales... And they are. Like I said, they fall third behind consoles and hand helds.

 

Also, just because you know how to customize a PC... 90% of the population neither cares about, or knows how. This is the market that consoles appeal to: The casual gamer.

 

Like I said, everyone makes good points on both sides of the argumet.

 

I, however, just happen to view it as that PCs are still on the way out as far as games due to that market being dominated by console sales and that effects development times and game design since a lot of games are designed with the console first and foremost and the PC as an afterthought. THIS is what worries we most and is already happening and why I think PC games are "dying" in terms of their complexity and why PC gamers may have no choice but to either stop playing games in the future (because they are lousy console ports like TSL)... OR, just play dumbed-down versions of console games to get their gaming fix.

[adrich81]

The absolute fact is that publishers will not stop releasing games for the pc as long as they are making money from it. It's still a very lucrative market for them. Sure, there have been some feeble ports recently, but I'd go for a poor console port on a pc over playing the same game on a console (eg TSL PC vs XBox).

[Brickyard]

If there is to be a KOTOR III, and if Obsidian gets the job, they need our support. However, they need to give us the customer their support as well.

 

Well I've already decided to:

 

#1 - not purchase another LucasArts product

#2 - wait at least a month before ever purchasing another Obsidian product (before K2, I was eagerly awaiting NWN2. Now...not so much.

#3 - not trust game review sites ever again

#4 - try to purchase games from places that allow returns, if I can find one around here (haven't located one yet).

 

Abiding by #1 does not mean I won't play any LA products, just that they'll never see any more money from me.

 

If Obsidian makes K3, well, good luck to them. Hopefully they'll have grown the balls by then to take their time and produce a finished game. I don't want them to go the way of Troika, but if NWN2's story is as full of unfinished plotlines, uncompletable quests, and no ending to speak of, they really deserve the fate of Troika, IMO.

 

K2 may be the most disappointing game I've ever bought. Mostly because you can see the good ideas they had, and can see how it could have been one of the best ever, but it just...wasn't. It fell completely flat about 3/4 through. All that build-up to...nothing worthwhile. Lots of bugs (on my system, which does NOT have an ATI card) don't help, and nearly 6 weeks of a "soon" patch hurts more.

 

And if K3 is console-only, I really doubt I get it. I have a PS2...no plans to ever get an X-Box or GameCube. And when the next generation of consoles come out, I'll likely buy ONE. It may or may not be the NextBox, it really depends on the game lineup (and K3 by Obsidian as NextBox-only...after K2, I can't see that as pushing TOWARDS choosing the NextBox).

[Judge Hades]

Brickyard, those are good markers to live by but I am willing to give LucasArts one more chance if they allow Obsidian to finish the game in total.

[DarthSchlong]

I was eagerly awaiting NWN2.  Now...not so much.

 

Yeah, Dragon Age is still a must buy though. If NWN2 has same type of dark and depressing storyline then I will pass on it. I would really like to see OE do something with a more traditional storyline once. I mean, not all OE games can be second act stories, can they?

[Judge Hades]

Dragon Age is not a must buy. After that lackluster game of NWN and the preictable plot of KotOR 1 I don't think I could stomach another Bioware game.

[DarthSchlong]

Dragon Age is not a must buy.  After that lackluster game of NWN and the preictable plot of KotOR 1 I don't think I could stomach another Bioware game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And Malachor V was not predictable? Nobody would shut up about it. Buy hey, glad we all have different tastes. What games do you like though?

[dabise]

Dragon Age is not a must buy.  After that lackluster game of NWN and the preictable plot of KotOR 1 I don't think I could stomach another Bioware game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Once again I don't understand your reasonings. NWN was THE breakthrough of all breakthroughs for RPG games. So, I played their official campaigns (First one was good, 2nd one I didn't like much, 3rd one was just awesome)

 

 

So now what do I do with my NWN games? Hell, I make my own or play ones made by the community. I witnessed no show-stopping bugs nor have I ever crashed playing it.

 

The game was in development for YEARS. Yeah, the graphics were dated when they released the game but that is understandable considering they had been making this game for so long. Also graphics don't make the game as I'd put NWN against any RPG out there.

 

Actually 2 of the best RPGs I've ever played and I mean EVER was one called Primal (PS2) and Demon Stone (PC, PS2 and others maybe...)

 

 

Primal flopped sadly. The only beef I had with it was the combat movements and controls were pretty bad.

 

Demon Stone flopped because they made it too short. Damn it was a fun 7 hours though

 

 

This comes down to tastes, but I fail to see how a game as good as NWN caused you to never buy a product developed by bioware again.

 

It can be argued that the BEST PC game developers of all time are

1.) Blizzard (Great games, even better support. I've NEVER bought one of their games and wasn't satisfied. Well, maybe Diablo2 but only because I hated how many monsters could poison )

2.) Bioware (Great games, great support, and to a lesser extent....Go CANADA! lol)

3.) Bungie (Great games, not sure about support since Micro$oft bought them.)

 

You have listed 2 of those as companies you'd never buy from again. I'd like to point out that yes, this all comes down to personal tastes. I'd like to also point out that the only games that will be worth a damn buying in the next few years will be made by these 3 companies.

 

 

Speaking of bungie, I guess I should take them off the list since I only got the 3 Myth games, and Oni so my preferences may not reflect how they are operating now.

 

 

As for Obsidian. KotOR 2 was actually a damn good game if you ignore the bugs and the missing plots. I'm willing to give them another chance. They've earned it I suppose. I've bought worse games and gave the developers a 2nd chance.

 

 

Also with regards to backwards compatibility. It worked well for the PS2. They were the only ones who could implement this in that particular generation as Nintendo shot themselves in the foot with cartridges and Xbox is microsoft's first run at the console market.

 

I can see the Xbox-2 having backwards compatibility and if Nintendo decides to try another generation of consoles they'd be stupid not to do the same. I thought it was a bad move with the mini-discs, but they grew on me hehe. I'm not sure how Sony would do this yet again. I think if they do they will not support PS1 games.

[adrich81]

Actually the Xbox 2 is unlikely to be backwards compatible from what I've heard. MS have refused to comment (which they wouldn't have if they could clear it by confirming that it would be).

 

I have to agree with you about NWN though - it really did show what's possible with rpgs (particularly Hordes of the Underdark). I'm waiting to see what they've done with Dragon Age - it'll be a change to move into a new rpg world.

 

LucasArts really do disappoint; I know on the strength of past experience I shouldn't touch another of their products with a barge pole (Rebel Assault 2, Battlegrounds...) Sadly it looks like I'll cave in and give them another last chance with Empire at War (though at least this time I'll do the sensible thing and lurk on the boards for a moth or 2 after release before I part with the cash for it).