The Kreia/Kae Question

[Jivin]

For example, we are never truly told why Kreia hates the force and seeks her vengeance against it, but like Ahab she is certainly willing to stab at the object of her hate with her last breath and is quite willing to sacrifice herself in the pursuit of her goal. Indeed, she knows full well and accepts that she must die as a consequence of her goal, just as Ahab did. And given the sly and deceptive creature that Kreia is, it is somehow fitting that we never learn her motives. Even had she said it, could we believe her?

 

Great post Jediphile!

 

I had just assumed Kreia was exiled from the Jedi Order because of her suspect teachings that led to the fall of a lot of her students, and I imagine it was then that the beginnings of her hatred of the force showed itself as she willingly searched for Revan at Malachor V, and then when she got there she was consumed by the dark side, which was fueled by, and in turn fueled her hatred for the fact the force has a 'will' which took away control (to a certain extent). Twisted by the dark side, but with a great understanding of all things, she set out to train one who would spite the will of the force, one who would almost be above it. But thats more of a what, not why.... like me in some other areas I suspect your looking for a deeper reason, and its doubtful you will ever get a certain answer... so dont go too crazy over it haha, this game really gets into your head

 

As far as the 'grey' side thing goes, I cant comment about things from kotor1, but in kotor2, visas would have to be an example of sorts. I am of the opinion that there is no such thing as being truly neutral when it comes to the force... the characters are either light or dark side, however there is certainly grey areas within the dark side, and there is no doubt a character can change orientation, if they are in the grey area of the dark side Visas was a part of the dark side to begin with, no doubting that... but she was pushed into it, no small part due to her weakness at the time when her race was culled. Her hatred over what happened to her people is what drove her to a certain extent, and that is a dark side trait, but her enslavement by darth nihilus was also a catylst for her dark side orientation. from the way i played the game it was easy to see that she was good at heart, and she sought you out after all, feeling that you and her shared an emotional wound suffered at the hands of something larger. All it needed was for her to break away somewhat, and face her demons, and her true spirit arose, as can be seen at the end of the LS game.

 

This is an example of "there is more to the sith than some would have thought" mentality that I think they try and push a lot in this game, which sorta introduces an element of complexity that was compounded when they neglected to end the game properly (all though to be fair with regards to this specifically, the travells and futures of the characters could be elaborated on in kotor3). Of course though there is always going to be more ambiguity when it comes to the sith than with the jedi, because by their very nature the dark side is much less restrictive than the jedi, and there is far more room to be ambiguous... both in behaviour and beleifs.

[Guest Lakmoots]

As a literary critic, I think the Moby **** comparison is an interesting one... however, you are simplifying alot of the more complex issues in the games storyline in order to fit your conjecture. Especially overreading the western religious motifs.

 

It is a good theory, though. Major props!

 

EDIT: I cannot believe the board doesn't let me state the books name! (w00t)

[Jediphile]

Hmmm, 16 pages and we *still* aren't really any wiser as to whether Kreia was really the Handmaiden's mother....

 

Why do I feel like I can hear Kreia laughing smugly from beyond the grave?

[Rainbow]

Well... about that discussion between Atris and Kreia...

 

It is obvious that Kreia hated Atris most of all. Otherwise she would have killed her like the other masters. Kreia wanted Atris to suffer for her betrayal.

 

Now what kind of betrayal can cause such hatred? What did Atris betray Kreia with. Why did Atris not mention that when she spoke to the Exile as she clearly knew whom the Exile was traveling with.

 

So my theory, about what happened to Kreia/Kae and why she is so full of hatred, would be like that:

 

Master Kae fell in love with Yussanis. As a result of this love, Kae became the Handmaiden's mother.

 

10 years later, Atris discovered what happened between Kae and the Enchani general and told it the Jedi council. Thus getting Kae exiled.

 

Kae more or less joins her former student Revan, as she pretty much knows what will happen. She likely has almost fallen to the dark side (her hatred for being betrayed and exiled). She goes to war and finally "dies" on Malachor V, very much like Anakin Skywalker "died" when he became Darth Vader. Obi-Wan himself said, that he told Luke the truth from a certain point of view. Kae falls to the dark side and becomes Darth Traya, the Sith who got betrayed and now betrays back.

 

Doesn't really matter if it is true or not, would make a great story. Just remember what is said every time. There are no coincidences among force users. It is the force that guides them, that brings them together. I don't even think it is that the force would need to have it's own will for doing that but it simply is in the nature of the force. It brings force sensitive beings together as they attract each other by their common affinity.

[Jivin]

Which is ironic given that it is that same will that kreia despises so much

[Rainbow]

That is part of the dark side. All those feelings, hate, anger, lust and so on have one thing in common. They grow the more you give in to them.

That is why she would tear the galaxy apart. She has fallen into a similar state like Nihilus, hunger. Only her hunger lies not in destruction but in her own satisfaction.

She wants to prove that she is right, that her teachings are right, that all she has done is right. She wants to show the Jedi Council that they were wrong to betray her. Her lust for victory lies in proving them wrong.

And when she proved all of the council how superior she is, she has to prove it to her student and herself, as with destroying the will of Atris she gained nothing but more hate. That hate is no longer directed to any person, as no one is left except the Exile. And she can't hate the Exile as she envys him/her for the ability to cut oneself off the force.

She can't cut herself off the force. The force would be all around her. The only way of her getting herself seperated is destroying the force itself or getting destroyed by the Exile.

 

Ironically, the more she hates it, the more she uses it, so she is really blind.

[DarthWeevil]

sifted through ten pages then got fed up LO> so if this has been pointed out, sorry.

 

I am liking this theory so far, and there's another point, that whole 'Loading ramp' thing with Visas, this backstory would go a LONG way to describing why Kreia has issues with Jedis having children, and also why that is the FIRST thing she assumes when the Exile meets with Visas, its not like you've been wining and dining Visas, she just makes the assumption immediately, like its something that is altready on her mind.

[Jivin]

Hey thats a good point! I had always just had a laugh at the whole "charge her up the loading ramp" thing

 

But it does make sense what your saying...

 

I found it interesting that they just jumped on the whole "the male character must be attracted to Visas" thing from the get-go, when it seems obvious that just as many blokes seem to like the handmaiden, and she was on the ship before Visas. You never hear any of the other characters assume that you and the handmaiden are an item, and you certainly dont hear Kreia warning you against taking to her with the old jolly roger.

 

Maybe from the very beginning the writers scripted it such that Visas would be the mysterious object of love, and the handmaiden to be the poor one that is in love but always misses out? Storyline wise though, I guess there is no reason why that shouldnt be well founded, as you and her do share an scar and a loss thats fairly deep and emotional, however thats an assumption, because doesnt really take into account how the player approaches the game.

 

Either way I think your point lends itself well to the idea of the thread

[phiont]

I still feel that the best argument against it is how the Handmaiden goes to great lengths to establish how Echani children look very much like their parents, and she bears the face of her mother.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A common misconception not supported by fact.

 

According to the Handmaiden Sisters: "It is not unusual for the Echani of the same parents to be born so as to be indistinguishable to outsiders." So, even though Echani children of the same parents commonly resemble each other they don't necessarily resemble their parents.

 

And when Handmaiden says she honours the face of her mother she is merely trying to explain why she looks different from her half-sisters who had a different mother. Handmaiden has never seen her mother and admits to having no idea what she looked like.

 

Kreia was the only character in the game who said anything at all about Arren Kae's appearance: "And she was... said to be... a skilled warrior. Beautiful. And strong in the Force." I suspect there was a reason that Kreia paused in mid sentence to insert the phrase, "said to be..." Revan was the Padawan of both Kreia and Kae. It's rather unlikely that Kreia never saw Kae. So, why would Kreia feel compelled to cite the opinions of others if not out of the same sense of modesty used when describing one's self.

[phiont]

Why did Atris not mention that when she spoke to the Exile as she clearly knew whom the Exile was traveling with.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

From the dialog.tlk file:

 

 

Handmaiden sister: But there has been no word of her since she departed with the other four on the freighter.

 

{Atris turns to the handmaiden}{A little confused}

 

Atris: Four?

 

Handmaiden sister: Yes, mistress: the Iridonian, the Echani-trained pilot, the exile, and the old woman.

 

Atris: Old woman?

 

Handmaiden sister: Yes, mistress.

 

{Slight confusion, she was mind controlled not to remember}

 

Atris: I... do not recall seeing her.

 

Handmaiden sister: Mistress, she was secured for much of the time the exile was here. At other times you were meditating, and we did not wish to disturb you.

 

{Silence, as Atris looks at Sister1}

 

Handmaiden sister: Mistress, is there something wrong?

 

Atris: I am... tired.

 

{Starts showing vulnerability of her internal collapse}

 

Atris: I... sometimes feel as if things are collapsing... all around us. It is just at the edge of perceptions, waiting. I fear... I fear things will collapse before our enemies reveal themselves.

 

Handmaiden sister: Yes... mistress.

 

Atris: I will meditate upon this. Perhaps it will clear my mind.

[phiont]

In the hololog of the discussion following the Exile's trial, when one of the Masters says: "And Revan had many teachers since."

 

Atris responds with: "Yet they all stem from the same source. Her teachings violated the Jedi Code and lead all who listen to the dark side, as they did the exile."

 

I believe the teacher Atris is referring to may be Kreia because Atris also uses the word "her" for the version of the dialog where Revan is male. This might mean that Kreia taught the Exile, at one time.

[The Great Phantom]

Most, if not all, of Kreia's students were 'failures'...

 

As for the Grey thing, once again, Jolee was NOT grey. THERE IS NO GREY SIDE! These are called thus by the Jedi because of the fact that they are fallen in the eyes of the Jedi, and weaklings to the Sith. Jolee served the Light. Kreia served the Dark.

 

This is proven by their very attitudes! Even Juhani (She was actually pretty smart when it comes right down 2 it) told Jolee: "I can see that you serve the light, even if you choose not to admit it."

 

Jolee was an 'Old Fashioned' Jedi from the times when Jedi were actually allowed to be Human. The Old Jedi saw in 'shades of grey', but the restructuring of the Code made them like the Pharisees in ancient Jerusalem: They still have the same basic laws, but they built an impenetrable fortress around it.

 

There is no in between in SW. "Apathy is death." How many times do I have to quote the same thing here, people???

 

Grey Jedi are those that either fall from the Jedi, but don't 'fall' fall, or those that are exiled for doing what they believe is right (like the Exile). These ones believe that the Jedi Code is flawed in several areas, or that the Jedi inactivity does nothing but harm the Galaxy. Does this remind anybody of that show, Smallville? Mr. Kent is always telling Clark to do what he thinks is best, and that sometimes it may cause more harm, but if you know it's right, you should still try your best...

 

I think that Kreia was either Arren, or she taught Arren. We have plentiful evidence of both. For one, all of Kreia's students were failures. Please do NOT ignore this proven fact.

 

:ph34r:

[Jediphile]

Most, if not all, of Kreia's students were 'failures'...

 

As for the Grey thing, once again, Jolee was NOT grey. THERE IS NO GREY SIDE! These are called thus by the Jedi because of the fact that they are fallen in the eyes of the Jedi, and weaklings to the Sith. Jolee served the Light. Kreia served the Dark.

 

This is proven by their very attitudes! Even Juhani (She was actually pretty smart when it comes right down 2 it) told Jolee: "I can see that you serve the light, even if you choose not to admit it."

 

Jolee was an 'Old Fashioned' Jedi from the times when Jedi were actually allowed to be Human. The Old Jedi saw in 'shades of grey', but the restructuring of the Code made them like the Pharisees in ancient Jerusalem: They still have the same basic laws, but they built an impenetrable fortress around it.

 

There is no in between in SW. "Apathy is death." How many times do I have to quote the same thing here, people???

 

Grey Jedi are those that either fall from the Jedi, but don't 'fall' fall, or those that are exiled for doing what they believe is right (like the Exile). These ones believe that the Jedi Code is flawed in several areas, or that the Jedi inactivity does nothing but harm the Galaxy. Does this remind anybody of that show, Smallville? Mr. Kent is always telling Clark to do what he thinks is best, and that sometimes it may cause more harm, but if you know it's right, you should still try your best...

 

I think that Kreia was either Arren, or she taught Arren. We have plentiful evidence of both. For one, all of Kreia's students were failures. Please do NOT ignore this proven fact.

 

:ph34r:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Grey is not a "side" - it's a balance between light and dark. Juhani may say Jolee serves the light, but that still begs a lot of interpretation. For example, it is quite true that Jolee does not support the dark side - he will allow Revan to deny the light side as he did himself, but he won't let him embrace the dark side fully, either.

 

You could use that as a basis for calling Jolee light side, I suppose, but it would still be an interpretation. After all, Jolee flat out refuses to listen to Bastila's sales pitch to 'bring him back into the light' - what's all that about if he is already light side?

 

If the lines are that clear, then why can't Jolee use any Jedi items restricted to light side (or to dark side for that matter)?

 

Most Star Wars tales revolving about the Jedi and Sith deal with the sharp contrast between the light and dark side of the force and so become morality plays. Jolee was interesting exactly because he refused to allow that eternal struggle to define him - he would not be a battleground for the war within the force.

 

He was a little like Kreia in that sense, except he didn't hate the force for it or was willing to manipulate others (Kreia wasn't really that balanced or 'grey' in the end...), and he made KotOR1 and Star Wars itself a little richer exactly because he did make the statement that choice was possible - you did not have to bow to the fate that the force set up for you, if you didn't want to. Too bad Kreia didn't meet him - it could have saved us a lot of headache in KotOR2... :D

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

What happened to Jolees wife anyway?

[phiont]

What happened to Jolees wife anyway?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

She became a

Dark Jedi and was killed near the end of the Exar Kun war

.

[DarthWeevil]

Grey is not a "side" - it's a balance between light and dark. Juhani may say Jolee serves the light, but that still begs a lot of interpretation. For example, it is quite true that Jolee does not support the dark side - he will allow Revan to deny the light side as he did himself, but he won't let him embrace the dark side fully, either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah good point. Cos Jolee is basically a good person, sure a cantankerous, bitter mean old bugger at times, but it hides a caring side.

 

You could use that as a basis for calling Jolee light side, I suppose, but it would still be an interpretation. After all, Jolee flat out refuses to listen to Bastila's sales pitch to 'bring him back into the light' - what's all that about if he is already light side?

 

Because Light and Dark are not defined by being Sith or Jedi, and what Bastilla is trying to do is turn him back to the Jedi Code, even if she doesn't realise it, matters of light and dark are secondary to her motives. She has bought into the Jedi party line, beleiving only Jedi serve the light and others must be 'fallen'. Just like many RL religions think all those who do not worship in their temples must be 'lost' regardless of how they conduct their lives.

 

The Jedi Code is just that, a code. Light and Dark are not defined by doctrine, just as adhering to the morality of most religions does not really require strict adherence to a stone tablet or a set of scrolls. These things are there for those who are unable to make their own decisions about what is right and wrong, without some moral yardstick to refer to. The reason Jolee is not entirley light side is a given as allowing himself to be emotional in ways Jedi will not, leaves him open to darker emotions. but so what, he feels them and he accepts them. The Jedi and Sith ideaologies tend towards extremes, and hence when a Jedi fails more often than not he embraces the opposite philosophy, assuming that, as the light has not proved to be the path he had thought it to be, then the dark must be the correct cause. Many of them forget that what matters in life is to feel. to live. to breath. And that emotions such as hate must be understood, not denied. But.. basically I'd say on pure motive alone, Jolee could pretty much be seen as orientated to the light, he just depsises dogma and extremism

 

If the lines are that clear, then why can't Jolee use any Jedi items restricted to light side (or to dark side for that matter)?

 

Good question. I dunno

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

She became a

Dark Jedi and was killed near the end of the Exar Kun war

.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

I knew she became a dark jedi. But was she provably killed or was it just what Jolee said ?

 

 

And what is the Exar Kun war ? Is that other name for the Mandalorian wars?

[DarthWeevil]

She became a

Dark Jedi and was killed near the end of the Exar Kun war

.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

I knew she became a dark jedi. But was she provably killed or was it just what Jolee said ?

 

 

And what is the Exar Kun war ? Is that other name for the Mandalorian wars?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No its a war before the Mandalorian War, Exar Kun was a powerful Dark Jedi, who waged war on the republic and the Council, IIRC he made his temple on Yavin 4, and a Jedi fleet had to bombard him from orbit or something to take him out.

[Grant Dempsey]

Regarding the debate over Jolee Bindo, I think it was safe to say he leaned much closer to the Light Side of the Force than the Dark Side of the Force. He just didn't serve the Jedi Order. There's a difference between being a "good" Force user and being a Jedi, I think, just as there's a difference between being a Dark Jedi and being a Sith. (Dark Jedi were simply fallen Jedi. Sith were members of the actual "order" of the Sith religion. A Dark Jedi could be a Sith, but being a Dark Jedi does not necessarily mean you are a Sith.)

[DarthWeevil]

Regarding the debate over Jolee Bindo, I think it was safe to say he leaned much closer to the Light Side of the Force than the Dark Side of the Force. He just didn't serve the Jedi Order. There's a difference between being a "good" Force user and being a Jedi, I think, just as there's a difference between being a Dark Jedi and being a Sith. (Dark Jedi were simply fallen Jedi. Sith were members of the actual "order" of the Sith religion. A Dark Jedi could be a Sith, but being a Dark Jedi does not necessarily mean you are a Sith.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Absolutely

[The Great Phantom]

Yay!

 

At least 2 people have some sense in this thread! :ph34r:

[Jambo]

make that three. To be honest, I've always thought the same thing about Dark Jedi. They don't necessarily adhere to the Sith teachings, but they are usually employed by the Sith, if not freelance. They simple have evil intentions and use the Force to destructive ends. And the thing about Jolee not being about to use Light Side or Dark Side items: I think the purpose of that was just the way the game was made and not necessarily how it would work in the Star Wars Universe, but I could be wrong and I probably am. There has to be some concrete way to limit what items the characters can and can't use simpley to make things more interesting. There's no "Intentions" meter that gauges whether you're intentions are good or evil, otherwise that be what determines what items you can and can't use.

 

But back on topic, once again: Assuming that The Exile never met Master Kae, with my limited knowledge, I suppose it's possible that Kreia and Kae are the same person. I'm mean, Kreia has the same letters as Kae KrEiA, KAE. Also, on a similar note, has anyone else noticed that Atris and Taris contain the exact same letters? They just moved that "A" to the front and there, you've got Atris. I wonder if there's any connection. Could be...

[The Great Phantom]

Jambo, you can't declare yourself (senseful???).

 

Somebody else has to do it.

 

I officially declare you (senseful???). There, now you have sense.

 

Yes, the only reason why Jolee couldn't use DS/LS items was because of the game engine and SW design. In the real SW universe, he would be able to use all except maybe the most powerful of Sith (or any DS, for that matter) artifacts.

 

I strongly believe that Kreia either taught or is Arren Kae... Either one is valid, really.

[phiont]

I strongly believe that Kreia either taught or is Arren Kae...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I officially declare you (senseful???) too. :D

[The Great Phantom]

Off topic: Why are so many people using Indiana Jones avatars now???