A Jedi Eats, Shoots & Leaves

[Cerebus]

I had a Morrowind-obsessed student in Latvia who was convinced that n'wah was a real word.

Arest thou a teacher? What is 'n'wah' ?

[SteveThaiBinh]

Uh-huh. Not sure what n'wah means exactly, but some kind of insult.

[213374U]

This is why English, for non-native English speakers, is the hardest language on the planet to learn when they first learn it. Half of the stuff we say just isn't correct and relies more on inference and context than actual content as far as the written rules are concerned.

I don't agree. While English may be a more "elastic" language than others, the basic grammar and lexicon are really easy to pick up. German grammar is much more complicate in that respect. The same goes for oriental languages. In fact I think one of the factors that make English the n

[Tanuvein]

This is why English, for non-native English speakers, is the hardest language on the planet to learn when they first learn it. Half of the stuff we say just isn't correct and relies more on inference and context than actual content as far as the written rules are concerned.

I don't I agree. While English may be a more "elastic" language than others, the basic grammar and lexicon are really easy to pick up. German grammar is much more complicate in that respect. The same goes for oriental languages. In fact I think one of the factors that make English the n

[witchzenka]

English is unnecessarily complex and nonsensical. I adore language and I adore English, but most languages are very logical - a certain letter always makes a certain sound, for instance.

[Master Dahvernas]

English is unnecessarily complex and nonsensical.  I adore language and I adore English, but most languages are very logical - a certain letter always makes a certain sound, for instance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I was playing through the game again (second time) and more and more the grammatical errors just leap out at you even if you have the subtitles turned off for the human voice acted parts.

 

Vrook (voiced by Ed Asner) said something along the lines of:

 

"This is the Atrau Form. It is best used against single opponents. Use it wisely. It will serve you good."

 

Shouldn't that be "It will serve you well?"

 

Or is this one of those wierd English execptions-to-the-rule where it sounds wrong, but actually is grammatically correct (I can't remember)?

 

There are more since I am now consciously on the look out for them as I replay the game.

 

They seriously need to hire both professional copy-editors AND proofers because some of these things aren't stylistic choices (like I think the above example is) and just scream "basic high school English" which is very bad for a professional company that uses the English language, both spoken and written as a major part of their projects in my opinion.

[witchzenka]

I love it when Zherron says "I hope you talk good."

Though I'm hoping that is what he is supposed to say, to highlight his own ineptitude.

[Gorth]

Are you guys seriously discussing "proper english" in a universe, that has Yoda in it ?!?

 

Vogga's Horde was a disaster though...

[Cerebus]

English is unnecessarily complex and nonsensical.  I adore language and I adore English, but most languages are very logical - a certain letter always makes a certain sound, for instance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ghoti = Fish

[Cerebus]

I'm actually finding German very easy to learn. Its very, very similar to English. A lot of the words that mean the same thing sound near identical too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah, but there are a lot of "false friends", and words that used to have the same meaning (English is a Germanic language) but mutated into something different over time. The word Bird comes from German "Brut" (which means brood) while the word fowl comes from German "Vogel" (which means bird)

If you translate "self conscious", it means "self confident", there's no direct distinction between apes and monkeys, and "gross" is the German word for "big".

And now I'll shut up and look for another thread, before somebody throws a lightsaber at me "

[Lemurmania]

Vrook (voiced by Ed Asner) said something along the lines of:

 

"This is the Atrau Form. It is best used against single opponents. Use it wisely. It will serve you good."

 

Shouldn't that be "It will serve you well?"

 

Or is this one of those wierd English execptions-to-the-rule where it sounds wrong, but actually is grammatically correct (I can't remember)?

It's not an exception -- it's just wrong. I guess when you're raised from birth to wield the Force there's not much time for readin' and writin' and all that fancy book stuff. Or maybe Vrook has a minor learning impediment that went untreated at Jedi School.

 

I fear I've done a horrible disservice to everyone by pointing out the grammar and punctuation problems. Once you notice them, it's impossible not to notice them. Maybe I should have kept my big yap shut.

[Lemurmania]

English is unnecessarily complex and nonsensical.  I adore language and I adore English, but most languages are very logical - a certain letter always makes a certain sound, for instance.

Ah! The phonetic problems of English, yes indeedy. You may already be aware of this, but there have been several attempts to phenticize the language. Most of the documentation I've dug up has to do with 19th-century attempts, but I'm certain there were earlier.

 

Here's a semi-decent article on the subject. It doesn't touch on Samuel Johnson's work, or much of anything before Noah Webster, but it's an amusing read. It will clew you in, though you may be agast.

 

And Cerebus, prithee, do not believe that the heathen rabble hear aught amiss in thy most excellent speech. S'wounds, thou shalt be taken for a native!

[witchzenka]

Hukt on fonix werkt for me!

[tmp]

It's not an exception -- it's just wrong.

But my Merriam-Webster dictionary says that:

 

good adv : well

 

... so wouldn't that mean you can use "it'll serve you good" in exactly the same way you'd say "it'll serve you well" since they'll mean literally the same?

 

(not a native speaker here so just puzzled and curious, really...

[Lemurmania]

But my Merriam-Webster dictionary says that:

 

good adv : well 

 

... so wouldn't that mean you can use "it'll serve you good" in exactly the same way you'd say "it'll serve you well" since they'll mean literally the same? 

 

(not a native speaker here so just puzzled and curious, really...

Wow. I just wrote a long reply to this, only to have it sucked into the void by the board gnomes.

 

I may cry.

 

Here's the short version: You don't use "good" as a terminal adjective. I couldn't begin to say why, but you don't. Also, "good" and "well" aren't really interchangeable. To say "That's a good dog" is different from saying "That's a well dog." And if you say "That's a well-done dog," you get yet another meaning.

 

"He walks good" is incorrect, unless you're doing a deliberate dialect. Southern English speakers could get away with it, for example. But they certainly wouldn't say it that way if they were trying to be formal or proper. "He walks well" would be much much much more correct.

 

That's one of the (uncountable) problems in English -- a lot of times the correctness is a matter of degree. Two phrasings can be correct, but one will be more correct. Some grammar nazis try to make it out that there is One True Grammar to English, but it just isn't so. Rather, there are varying degrees of Good Taste and Bad Taste English.

 

To go back to one of the earliest examples, if you say "Kreia is stronger than I," you're spot-on perfect gramatically, but you sound awkward. It's correct in the strictest sense, but, if I may be so bold, it's in bad taste. "Kreia is stronger than me" is gramatically wrong, but it sounds much more natural to a native speaker, so it's in much better taste, and therefore, since English is defined more by usage than by rules, it's more correct. Because it's in better taste.

 

When my first post got swallowed, I swore I wouldn't write it all again. Instead I've written more. Argh! This is what happens when a hot grammar/RPG discussion lights up the boards!

[Darth Frog]

Also, "good" and "well" aren't really interchangeable. To say "That's a good dog" is different from saying "That's a well dog."

 

If it is a dog for sniffing out wells and it is good at it, then it might be a "good well dog", and if it is healthy while lots of the other well dogs are ill then somebody might even call it a "well well dog" but that would be pushing it a little, I guess. :D

 

What I, as a non-native speaker, find grating is mixups of words that sound alike but are very different, as in "Their is no time for fetching there things, their too far away." It seems common among native speakers on web boards (foreigners wouldn't dare to be that sloppy) and there were some instances in the game as well. This is quite different from things like Zherron saying "I hope you talk good." which I find believable and in style for his character.

[Janson]

Zherron's line perfectly complemented his character and voice, I think. It was a definite colloquialism.

 

EDIT: Used the wrong form of 'compliment/complement'...

[Malagance]

But my Merriam-Webster dictionary says that:

 

good adv : well 

 

... so wouldn't that mean you can use "it'll serve you good" in exactly the same way you'd say "it'll serve you well" since they'll mean literally the same? 

 

(not a native speaker here so just puzzled and curious, really...

Wow. I just wrote a long reply to this, only to have it sucked into the void by the board gnomes.

 

I may cry.

 

Here's the short version: You don't use "good" as a terminal adjective. I couldn't begin to say why, but you don't. Also, "good" and "well" aren't really interchangeable. To say "That's a good dog" is different from saying "That's a well dog." And if you say "That's a well-done dog," you get yet another meaning.

 

"He walks good" is incorrect, unless you're doing a deliberate dialect. Southern English speakers could get away with it, for example. But they certainly wouldn't say it that way if they were trying to be formal or proper. "He walks well" would be much much much more correct.

 

That's one of the (uncountable) problems in English -- a lot of times the correctness is a matter of degree. Two phrasings can be correct, but one will be more correct. Some grammar nazis try to make it out that there is One True Grammar to English, but it just isn't so. Rather, there are varying degrees of Good Taste and Bad Taste English.

 

To go back to one of the earliest examples, if you say "Kreia is stronger than I," you're spot-on perfect gramatically, but you sound awkward. It's correct in the strictest sense, but, if I may be so bold, it's in bad taste. "Kreia is stronger than me" is gramatically wrong, but it sounds much more natural to a native speaker, so it's in much better taste, and therefore, since English is defined more by usage than by rules, it's more correct. Because it's in better taste.

 

When my first post got swallowed, I swore I wouldn't write it all again. Instead I've written more. Argh! This is what happens when a hot grammar/RPG discussion lights up the boards!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The ONE GRAMMAR TO RULE THEM ALL!

 

English teachers are expected to be highly critical of grammar in essays and the like, but the people that get to me are those who have the audacity to correct extraordinarily minor grammatical errors in another's speech, interrupting them in order to do so. This doesn't happen to me, but I have seen it occur with others and I can't help but sneer. If you feel the need to correct the speech of another to an obnoxious degree, then you are feebly clinging to the archaic remnants of an illogical language design spawned hundreds of years ago by people who thought that bathing was bad.

 

You do bathe, don't you?

 

I suppose I walk a very fine line. I have little tolerance for the misguided imbeciles who feel that punctuation and capitalization are optional. Believe me, fool, of all the easily discardable elements of the english language, you have picked poor ones to omit. Your instant messenger generation "grammar" will become a textbook example of laziness and idiocy...

 

In conclusion, spoken grammar is important, but particularly minor errors that sound awkward when corrected should remain uncorrected, in my opinion, not only for the sake of preventing awkward moments, but just out of respect for the speaker. Written language and grammar is very important and I curse teenagers for being stupid. Darn kids.

[witchzenka]

Well.... it's not just teens or even mostly teens, ime.

*shudders*

I won't tell you about the sense-free chat I had this morning with a 30 year old friend on Yahoo... that's just too sad.

[Cybersquirt]

Clear this one up for me, Linguists

 

Kreia says "... catches us unawares ..." And it's voiced as such, as well.

 

Am I the only one confused as hell by that one?

 

(the only other thing that irritated the snot out of me was the game getting confused about Revan's gender when I set Revan as a woman)

[SteveThaiBinh]

Kreia says "... catches us unawares ..."  And it's voiced as such, as well. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Unawares is an adverb. To catch someone unawares is a phrase meaning to surprise someone, do something that they weren't expecting or weren't prepared for.

[Cybersquirt]

Unaware, yes, but "unawares"? Really?

 

But ...

 

Oh, never mind. Maybe this is another US/UK thing. :D

Edited March 8, 2005 by Cybersquirt

[Guun Fett Truss]

Actually, I believe you are correct. The best phrasing is "catches us unawares", but we in the US use "catches us unaware" only because it sounds more natural.

[Master Dahvernas]

Actually, I believe you are correct.  The best phrasing is "catches us unawares", but we in the US use "catches us unaware" only because it sounds more natural.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yet another one to add (it's pretty obvious, but most of us seemed to have overlooked it):

 

Mira about her and Hannhar's relationship:

 

"I didn't kill him once. Biggest mistake I ever made".

 

I suppose you can kill someone more than one time, eh? :D

 

I know what Mira is implying -- She didn't kill him when she had the opportunity at one time... But it's funny because this is what we were talking about earlier about the English language being mostly based on connotation and not actual mechanics.

 

Maybe I am nitpicking this one, but if people actually stopped and listened to what they actually said (say)... Half the stuff we say sounds silly if you take the literal meaning(s) and can be construed so many ways it's kind of unbelieveable we manage to communicate at all