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I'll start off by stressing that it is not my intention to start a flamewar. So if you have anything negative to say, please state so in a considerate and polite fashion.

 

There's a lot of harsh criticism at these forums concerning how buggy or incomplete KoTOR2: TSL was. A lot of people are taking out their frustrations on Obsidian, and not in a good, constructive way.

 

You see, we know that TSL seemed like an unfinished product. And yes, there are a lot of bugs. But you are greatly mistaken if you feel Obsidian is solely to blame.

 

There are politics at play, here. Obsidian was allowed a strict and unrealistic amount of development time (one year) for TSL by LucasArts. (I think I read somewhere that KoTOR received three years, feel free to correct me on this.) However, Obsidian cannot take full responsibility for TSL because in doing so, they'd have to point the finger at LucasArts, which they certainly should not do if Obsidian wants to take on KoTOR 3.

 

But seriously, guys. The early parts of the game were great, with the exception of a few bugs (which could have been fixed with the addition of more development time, I am sure). And the cut content they originally developed (dialogue, the droid planet, character backgrounds) sounds really good.

 

I say we cut Obsidian a break and congratulate them for doing as good a job as they could in the time alotted to them. Obsidian is a new company that hasn't yet been able to show its true potential, and they need our support more than ever.

 

EDIT: Mods, feel free to move this topic if you see fit to do so.

 

-Ben

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I have to disagree with the "share the blame" philosophy.

 

LucasArts, as is their contractual right, demanded someone to develop Kotor 2 in a specific timeframe under certain conditions. OK...as the licensor, they can do this. Contract Requests for Proposal are let out for all kinds of products and services. If one doesn't feel one can't meet the conditions, then one negotiates to change them or walks away from the business. LucasArts would be forced to change their timeframe and expectations if no bidders came forward or felt they could meet the conditions. This decision was simply about money and status. To a startup, doing KOTOR 2 would be a flagship project. In other words, its too good to turn down.

 

Obsidian Entertainment agreed to certain terms, so crying about a short timeframe is crapola. I think nearly everyone on the forums will agree that the FINISHED product falls short of the standard we had set coming from KOTOR 1, especially in the area of too many bugs. The FULL RESPONSIBILITY for this shortcoming rests ENTIRELY with Obsidian Entertainment. They grossly overestimated their abilities given the timeframe constraints and project requirements.

 

As a consumer, who votes with his/her hard earned dollars, I have the right to expect a perfect game. This doesn't mean KOTOR 2 is horrible, just that it could have been better and any responsibility for it being less than that rests FULLY and SOLEY with Obsidian Entertainment. PERIOD.

 

This is a simple case of what the market will bear. If one feels one can't meet the deadline or conditions....then one has an OBLIGATION to say no. Perhaps Bioware said no to KOTOR 2 for this reason, perhaps not. Either way Obsidian Entertainment certainly could have walked away from the opportunity. No one made them take on this project. I can understand why they didn't walk away, but THAT issue may be the core issue in this whole matter and why KOTOR 2 turned out the way it did.

 

Let's all hope that KOTOR 3 is given more developmental and quality control time.

With a new engine....there is some hope there.

 

Hammer.

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Well, if you're waiting for a perfect game, you'll be waiting a long time. Especially one that can be made in one year.

 

There are only so many things we as consumers can criticize about a game before it just gets repetitive and old. Obsidian has already heard the same complaints over and over again, and what do we expect to achieve? Many would sooner overlook the highs of TSL and give credit to Obsidian for what hard work they put into the game. Sure many people aren't satisfied, but enough is enough. There's absolutely no need to punish a new gaming company in this way if one enjoyed playing TSL in the least.

 

Obsidian is obviously a capable and talented developer, they probably just underestimated the task before them. Let's hope LucasArts can loosen their policy concerning KoTOR 3.

 

-Ben

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Yeah, the depth of so much of the story indicates that at worst, they were over-ambitious, and things aren't so simple as you indicate, especially for a start-up company. In a perfect world with an infinite amount of contracts, sure. They have some responsibility, but Lucas Arts has most of it, when you consider the nature of the problems, and Obsidian still demonstrated great potential and there's more good in this admittedly flawed game than in many many other games. I and many others had a hell of a lot of fun, and what's good in it gives me great hopes for NWN2.

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I have to disagree with the "share the blame" philosophy. 

 

LucasArts, as is their contractual right, demanded someone to develop Kotor 2 in a specific timeframe under certain conditions.  OK...as the licensor, they can do this.  Contract Requests for Proposal are let out for all kinds of products and services.  If one doesn't feel one can't meet the conditions, then one negotiates to change them or walks away from the business.  LucasArts would be forced to change their timeframe and expectations if no bidders came forward or felt they could meet the conditions.  This decision was simply about money and status. To a startup, doing KOTOR 2 would be a flagship project.  In other words, its too good to turn down.

 

Obsidian Entertainment agreed to certain terms, so crying about a short timeframe is crapola.  I think nearly everyone on the forums will agree that the FINISHED product falls short of the standard we had set coming from KOTOR 1, especially in the area of too many bugs.  The FULL RESPONSIBILITY for this shortcoming rests ENTIRELY with Obsidian Entertainment.  They grossly overestimated their abilities given the timeframe constraints and project requirements.

 

As a consumer, who votes with his/her hard earned dollars, I have the right to expect a perfect game.  This doesn't mean KOTOR 2 is horrible, just that it could have been better and any responsibility for it being less than that rests FULLY and SOLEY with Obsidian Entertainment.  PERIOD.

 

This is a simple case of what the market will bear.  If one feels one can't meet the deadline or conditions....then one has an OBLIGATION to say no.  Perhaps Bioware said no to KOTOR 2 for this reason, perhaps not.  Either way Obsidian Entertainment certainly could have walked away from the opportunity.  No one made them take on this project.  I can understand why they didn't walk away, but THAT issue may be the core issue in this whole matter and why KOTOR 2 turned out the way it did.

 

Let's all hope that KOTOR 3 is given more developmental and quality control time.

With a new engine....there is some hope there.

 

Hammer.

 

Actually, it seems teh majority of people here KotOR II more than the first. Probably why they still post.

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It was a great game. I like(d) it a lot. To me, it seemed a bit more like an expansion pack. That should be taken as a complement, as KOTOR I was probably the best game I have ever played. Good Job, Obsidian.

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I think nearly everyone on the forums will agree that the FINISHED product falls short of the standard we had set coming from KOTOR 1, especially in the area of too many bugs.

Wrong. A vocal minority.

 

After 3 patches, Kotor1 still had bugs that made it unplayable. After no patches, Kotor2 had bugs that made certain quests not disappear from your questlog after they bacame unsolvable. One hell of a difference.

 

The FULL RESPONSIBILITY for this shortcoming rests ENTIRELY with Obsidian Entertainment.  They grossly overestimated their abilities given the timeframe constraints and project requirements.

Wrong.

 

If Lucas Arts wanted a better/more game, they would have made more of a commitment to it (time/money).

 

As a consumer, who votes with his/her hard earned dollars, I have the right to expect a perfect game.  This doesn't mean KOTOR 2 is horrible, just that it could have been better and any responsibility for it being less than that rests FULLY and SOLEY with Obsidian Entertainment.  PERIOD.

Wrong.

As a consumer, you have the right to use the content of the box as it is, no more, no less (besides whatever the end user license agreement for the product states).

 

If you didn't like the content, blame yourself. It's how market economy works, place your hard earned cash somewhere else next time to show that you were not satisfied.

 

Me, I hated the ending part. Most of the rest was superior to it's predecessor.

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No one will deny that it has problems, and the technical ones at least really do need fixing, but despite all of these things, and even the ending, I still had more fun than on the first kotor, which was one of my favorite games, though hk wasn't quite as fun this time around, but maybe that was just the novelty of it. That they made t3 a good character, and in fact, the mastermind of everything that happens in the game, is pretty damn cool too. In the first game, he was just a waste of space.. In terms of making a good experience, as opposed to bioware's overly repetitve, and generic designs (nwn, hotu,kotor), Obsidian's shown they are far superior imo.

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I entirely agree, witchzenka. I really liked how they brought out the characters this time around. And I never felt as if most of my party was useless (I very rarely used Zaalbar, Mission, T3-M4 or Juhani in KoTOR).

 

Don't beat yourselves up, Obsidian. You did a great job and succeeded in making an enjoyable and richly-detailed game. Rejoice in knowing you did the best you could in the time given to you. Just thought I'd let you know :cool:

 

-Ben

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The game wasn't bad, but I don't think it's as good as KotOR 1 - yes, it may have had more time but in the end the end-product was better.

 

As for the "who's in charge" thing, I'm not too sure. I suppose they both have a bit - reason why BioWare won't fix anymore bugs is cos LucasArts won't finance or request one (cos they've taken the view that it is "good enough", talk about quality loyalty), so in that respect, LucasArts should've been a bit more realistic with their goals for Obsidian. At the same time however, Obsidian have seemed to "bite off more then they can chew" (they probably considerd 1 year too short but they would've known nevertheless). It is evident with the cut material, simple bugs (but luckily can be fixed in patch :thumbsup: ), and not being able to explore some of the plot more deeply and thoroughly.

 

to me, KotOR II feels kinda like a Jedi Academy - good with new & suggested features, and a good game overall but not as much as the predecessor.

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After Kotor 1 i couldn't take on another single game for more than a few hours. Everything sucked, after finishing it. I was so depressed i abandoned miself, the last two years, in the arms of gorgeous, blonde top models. Countless beautiful, hot, luscious young women, to make the pain of ending Kotor go away.. :(

 

Now i've finished Kotor 2.. :( Awww! the terrible pain and horror! ... i have to make it go away :p"

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