Difficulty levels - how hard is hard?

[Simon Appleton]

I finished Kotor2 on the default difficulty level and found the combat rather too easy - I am not sure my main character ever died. Anyone played through on higher difficulty care to comment on how much of a change there is? Is there any hard info on what changing the difficulty levels does (increases AI damage by 50% or whatever). Thanks for any advice!

[Euripides]

I finished Kotor2 on the default difficulty level and found the combat rather too easy - I am not sure my main character ever died. Anyone played through on higher difficulty care to comment on how much of a change there is? Is there any hard info on what changing the difficulty levels does (increases AI damage by 50% or whatever). Thanks for any advice!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Strange my character died a lot of time and i found the fighs with Vrook and the last fight very difficult.

 

And I had a defence of 32 (without master speed on), attack +47 and lightsaber damage when equiped 25-50. Not sure what i do wrong when everyone feels that fight is too easy.

[Zach Morris]

The difficult setting could be likened to getting four of a kind in Texas Hold em. Your not going to lose unless your opponent is really lucky.

[JamieKirby]

i don't see the point on playing on higher difficulties, since there doesn't seem to be any bonsues for doing so.

 

Some games, make certain things available, but this game does no such things, so i don't see the point in it.

 

For example, Freespace and Freespace 2 had this thing that, the higher the difficulty, the more points you got, so it was sorta worth it to play it at higher difficulties.

 

So, i don't see the point in playing any game on a higher difficulty if it doesn't give you anything more then satisfaction for doing it.

[vadrillan]

1st time, I played through on Normal.

Now I'm playing through on Hard and last night had to check it hadn't gone back to Normal cause it didn't seem any harder whatsoever.

 

I think games should have different skill levels, just a better spread.

I mean sometimes you'll play a game on "Easy" that's impossible and vice versa...

[Malagance]

The game might seem a little bit more difficult for a while, but once you get a saber, the difficulties all seem to blend together, because combat becomes ridiculously easy. If you're good at tweaking the D20-based system and powergaming, the game will always be too easy unless you go to serious lengths to handicap yourself. For example, soloing a sentinel with blasters on difficult might be a challenge for me, but for some, just playing a single-saber guardian is challenging enough.

 

Either way, the game's difficulty, for me at least, is heavily tied to the presence or absence of a lightsaber. When I was soloing as a sentinel on difficult, the game could be pretty challenging up until that point.

 

But I agree, there's not a whole lot of a point to playing on difficult mode other than the challenge, so it's mostly for bragging rights. If they made it so that on difficult the items would be on average, stronger, and if they increased the exp gain, then there might be a "point" to playing difficult. As it stands, though, I still have mine set to difficult by default, simply because I think it's best to challenge yourself in any way possible, especially with a game like this, and especially if you want to get better at something.

[roflolocopter]

here's not a whole lot of a point to playing on difficult mode other than the challenge, so it's mostly for bragging rights. If they made it so that on difficult the items would be on average, stronger, and if they increased the exp gain, then there might be a "point" to playing difficult

 

The 'point' of playing games on difficult is so that they are FUN. Its just plain retarded and defeats the point to give bonuses when you notch up the difficulty level. Some of us like to use our brains when playing.

 

Its 1.5x damage when on difficult, they also may have a little more hp and higher saves, not sure but the 1.5x damage is definite.

[Malagance]

here's not a whole lot of a point to playing on difficult mode other than the challenge, so it's mostly for bragging rights. If they made it so that on difficult the items would be on average, stronger, and if they increased the exp gain, then there might be a "point" to playing difficult

 

The 'point' of playing games on difficult is so that they are FUN. Its just plain retarded and defeats the point to give bonuses when you notch up the difficulty level. Some of us like to use our brains when playing.

 

Its 1.5x damage when on difficult, they also may have a little more hp and higher saves, not sure but the 1.5x damage is definite.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Calm down, Fido. You'll note that I play on the highest difficulty as is. You'll also note that I put quote marks around "point" in my post. Put two and two together, I'm on your side.

[roflolocopter]

Wasn't attacking you or anyone really, its just your quote summed up the topic a lot nicer than quoting a few diff people at same time.

[stoo]

[snip]

 

So, i don't see the point in playing any game on a higher difficulty if it doesn't give you anything more then satisfaction for doing it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually, that's the very point of the game itself: making you feel satisfied after completing it. The more difficult the game, the more satisfied you will be feeling (well, of course it needs a decent plot and stuff, but still my point is: numbers do not really matter, if not for bragging -an dI usually buy games for my own pleasure, not for bragging around-). Overall, I found kotor2 ridiculously easy (I also started a topic about this).

 

Anyways, IMVHO.

[Malagance]

Wasn't attacking you or anyone really, its just your quote summed up the topic a lot nicer than quoting a few diff people at same time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Cool, I gotcha.

 

So why don't we make this productive, then. What about the combat do you think could be adjusted to make it more satisfying?

 

Personally, and this might just be me, I didn't think that the enemy force users used their powers nearly enough.

 

But since force users make up a very small percentage of encounters in general... I'd just have to say that the AI (Both for comrades and enemies) needs to be tweaked in a big way. Intelligent enemies are much more satisfying to defeat than mindless hordes. They don't even need to be that strong, but if weaker enemies used tactics and fought intelligently, they could do a lot more with what little power they have. The soldiers in the original half-life come to mind, their AI was pretty good if I recall.

 

Also, I don't mind slaughtering lots of troops and so forth, in fact, I think that's a very satisfying part of the game. However, there also needs to be other characters that can challenge you that you encounter on a semi-regular basis... like the sith that overpopulate the final area. They're cool, but they need to be kicked up a LOT in terms of their power.

 

The bosses, obviously, need a similar steroid injection.

[Chamdar]

It seems to me that some people play a different game than me. I know everything about the D20 system and I manipulated it quite a lot to my advantage in Kotor 2.

 

I was in no danger of dying for most of the game. The huge exceptions started near the end of the game. Some of the bosses could kill me in 3 to 4 hits although I had AC 45+, Master Toughness, CON 22, Jedi Weapon Master, Immunity Belt, and so on. If that isnt difficult then what is? I have no clue how those bosses could do so much damage but they were hardly easy. Some non-bosses were also really difficult in the last map but supposedly not for some of you?

[stoo]

[snip]

 

What about the combat do you think could be adjusted to make it more satisfying?

 

[snip]

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

just a few quick ideas (and/or applies to them all):

 

Better opponents AI: a smart and efficent use of force powers, healing kits, grenades.

 

More levels to bosses: this implies better stats, skills, feats.

 

Slower PC levelling.

 

Less encounters overall, but more challenging.

 

Higher IRL's applied to items.

 

Crafting more difficult: it was not long before I could get my hands on regenerative underlays for my armour, which alone often puts the game off-balance.

[Malagance]

just a few quick ideas (and/or applies to them all):

 

Better opponents AI: a smart and efficent use of force powers, healing kits, grenades.

 

More levels to bosses: this implies better stats, skills, feats.

 

Slower PC levelling.

 

Less encounters overall, but more challenging.

 

Higher IRL's applied to items.

 

Crafting more difficult: it was not long before I could get my hands on regenerative underlays for my armour, which alone often puts the game off-balance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

IRL's?

 

Chamdar, you do have some points. I realize that the bosses can kill you in only a few hits, the problem is that a well-built character can kill them before they get a hit in on you, theoretically. Especially if you use flurry. I suppose what I personally want in that regard are some bosses with more durability.

 

Also the natural regeneration seems a bit... much.

[stoo]

 

 

[snip]

 

Higher IRL's applied to items.

 

Crafting more difficult: it was not long before I could get my hands on regenerative underlays for my armour, which alone often puts the game off-balance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

IRL's?

 

Chamdar, you do have some points. I realize that the bosses can kill you in only a few hits, the problem is that a well-built character can kill them before they get a hit in on you, theoretically. Especially if you use flurry. I suppose what I personally want in that regard are some bosses with more durability.

 

Also the natural regeneration seems a bit... much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

IRL = Item Required Level, one of the most controversial item properties in d'n'd core rules. eg, item X has IRL=12, meaning that you can't equip/use it until your pc is level 12 or above.

 

Honestly, about what I suggested, what would -IMVHO- be most feasible and appreciated would be slowing levelling down (reducing gained XP will easily do the trick) and raising the encounters' levels.

[Malagance]

I agree with you on the point of leveling speed. I wonder if the exp is in that same file where you set the multipliers for all the enemies stats. Not sure if you've seen it, but someone posted it up here not too long ago, a file that had a bunch of fields for stats, and what appeared to be multipliers based off of the main characters' stats. Like .7 BAB or something. Trying to remember where the exp would be found.

 

Item Required Level... What item "broke" the game in such a way as to make you consider such a measure? The Biorestorative underlays?

[roflolocopter]

Already discussed much of this in a thread with Stoo but to recap on some stuff not already said...

 

Reduced AC vs more than 2 opponents, ie, so that you can get ganged up on, this will also make the force disable powers more than tools for quickly dispatching enemies.

 

Reduced force power strength, or maybe reduce the number of force points you get , not too sure how to balance this one but it needs some nerfing at least. Perhaps a reduction in strength and a diversification of powers, maybe a little more like the Wizzard spell system works in BG games (in terms of the tactics which you need to use).

 

Most importantly they need to create TACTICAL FIGHTS, just something like the sort of variety of tactics you have to use in dnd games; putting some thought into the battle. Im not sayign just make this BG with ligthsabers but a tactical element, however it is achieved, would be perfect.

 

ADD PENALTIES TO MASTER FLURRY!!!! this is just stupidly powerful. They should give you an extra attack but perhaps make the next enemy attack guarenteed to hit you, or maybe give you 2 attacks for one guarenteed hit from every enemy fighting you.

 

I dont think a total rewrite of the rules is needed as there is a definite basis for some tactics in the current rules, and there were one or two battles where I did actualy have to think about what I was doing (when i forced myself to use niether speed or flurry). Rewrite maybe a good idea but out of all the crpg games ive played the DnD based games give the biggest scope for tactics in battles.

[Malagance]

Already discussed much of this in a thread with Stoo but to recap on some stuff not already said...

 

Reduced AC vs more than 2 opponents, ie, so that you can get ganged up on, this will also make the force disable powers more than tools for quickly dispatching enemies.

Flanking Bonuses. I agree.

 

Reduced force power strength, or maybe reduce the number of force points you get , not too sure how to balance this one but it needs some nerfing at least. Perhaps a reduction in strength and a diversification of powers, maybe a little more like the Wizzard spell system works in BG games (in terms of the tactics which you need to use).

 

Over the course of the game, Kreia gives you a crapload of bonus force points. Reducing those would probably help. Though I'm a fan of DnD, I'm not sure how well any of the concepts from the wizard would transfer to a force user (Or how one could conceivably do it)

 

Most importantly they need to create TACTICAL FIGHTS, just something like the sort of variety of tactics you have to use in dnd games; putting some thought into the battle. Im not sayign just make this BG with ligthsabers but a tactical element, however it is achieved, would be perfect.

 

I agree with what you're saying, though maybe you could give some examples of tactical fights?

 

ADD PENALTIES TO MASTER FLURRY!!!! this is just stupidly powerful. They should give you an extra attack but perhaps make the next enemy attack guarenteed to hit you, or maybe give you 2 attacks for one guarenteed hit from every enemy fighting you.

 

I agree completely. Rarely, if ever, is there a need for any of the other special techniques (Power Attack, Critical Strike), or if there is, it usually requires a character/saber built around it.

 

I dont think a total rewrite of the rules is needed as there is a definite basis for some tactics in the current rules, and there were one or two battles where I did actualy have to think about what I was doing (when i forced myself to use niether speed or flurry). Rewrite maybe a good idea but out of all the crpg games ive played the DnD based games give the biggest scope for tactics in battles.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, a total rewrite of the rules would be difficult to pull off anyway.

[stoo]

 

 

Item Required Level... What item "broke" the game in such a way as to make you consider such a measure? The Biorestorative underlays?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yeah, those too. And many others. Some items are just way too powerful (expecially those which granted +5 to a given stat) and way too easy to find at relatively low PC level.

 

A quick idea to explain how IRL could be applied, say, to lightsabers: each one of the 5 upgrade slots in a lightsaber (I'm not taking the colour crystal slot into account) could be restrained to a given level, so, say, when the lightsaber is found, the player can only access one of its 5 upgrade slots, and then a new upgrade slot becomes available every 'given number' of levels. This would also be more realistic, because I doubt a novice Jedi already has all the skill necessary to overclock his saber to extreme levels.

 

-just my 1.99 cents-

-peace-

[Euripides]

It seems to me that some people play a different game than me. I know everything about the D20 system and I manipulated it quite a lot to my advantage in Kotor 2.

 

I was in no danger of dying for most of the game. The huge exceptions started near the end of the game. Some of the bosses could kill me in 3 to 4 hits although I had AC 45+, Master Toughness, CON 22, Jedi Weapon Master, Immunity Belt, and so on. If that isnt difficult then what is? I have no clue how those bosses could do so much damage but they were hardly easy. Some non-bosses were also really difficult in the last map but supposedly not for some of you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I had the same question. What were the stats of master Vrook and Sion and they were able to inflict 100+ damage per hit (i.e with flurry 2x100+). I just wonder.

[roflolocopter]

By tactics I mean that you actualy have to think and use the force powers and items creatively, for example having to remove bariers from opponents (such as the force immunity that they never seem to use). Also say for example you run into a room., theres 3 guys who run at you with mele weapons and 2 snipers, you have to choke the snipers while another member of your party force pushes or stuns the mele guys for a second to buy you some vital time. That sort of thing.

 

Its quite difficult to explain because when implimented properly there should be no specific one way of winning in a fight. Thats what I loved about RPG games, you could go into battles and try out a number of different styles, essentialy having a different experience with whatever tactics you chose to use. This does not mean that you cant go in for some lightsaber melee masacre, but its just not rewarding when you can win by selecting target and clicking attack then sitting back.

 

Quick fix would be to make it either impossible to cast offensive forcepowers while in force speed mode and/or to lower AC vs other melee fighters while in speed mode (to show lack of caution).

[vadrillan]

I don't agree with flurry being nerfed- it's only 1 extra swing. i'm going through using just Critical Strike this time and that's lethal too.

 

The thing that does it is the Lightsaber itself....plus Master Speed....plus feat of your choice....

 

I don't think there's enough Force Powers used by the enemy though, as has been pointed out before. I bumped into about 2 enemies in the entire game with Force Immunity on....I was bloody surprised I can tell you!

[Simon Appleton]

I found there was something of the NWN OC about this game - the enemies, while numerous, did not seem appropriate to your level. Playing light side, I don't recall battling dark Jedi type enemies until the very end and then they did not use their force powers much. (Exception: on Dxun moon, my otherwise invincible Handmaiden guardian got killed by a nasty duo.) KOTOR1 was also too easy, but gave me some moments - better boss fights and Tattoine/Star Forge were fairly well pitched, IIRC.

 

The other NWN OC aspect that gets me is the penny packets of enemies - you meet 3, at most 6-7 in a gang. At the end, when I was met by an honour guard of 10 baddies, I thought - crumbs, no way I can fight 10 Dark Jedi at once. But at level 27, I think that would have been pretty appropriate. Never happened, unfortunately. As well as being unchallenging, it just does not make sense - concentration of force is the most basic principle of combat. Unless there was some stealth/infilitration type rationale, there is no rationale for the baddies to stay in their own little rooms and be salami sliced by my character.

 

This is strange coming from Obsidian, as one thing IWD and IWD2 did extremely well was maintain a challenging level of combat as you levelled up - powergamed even - through the game.