you know what kotor needs?

[Whitewolf]

it NEEDS bioware and not obsidian, obsidian completely bombed the kotor franchise IMO, even there website is screwed up, and yes i know this company hasint been around for long, but they completely screwed this thing up... and i know LA pushed the deadline up, but they coulda said go **ck your self and then do it on there own time LOL.... the game isint great, but its not terrible... it could be way better...

 

i practicaly worship bioware for there awesome job with kotor1..... i think kotor1 woulda been as bad as kotor2 if obsidian made it... with kotor1 i actualy wish i could go back in time and experiance it for the first time.... kotor2 however..... makes me wanna puke to think about me having to go through peragus everytime i make another character....

 

Anyways now that my ranting is over with... whats your oppionion?

 

 

P.S i know my spelling sucks... but im 13 and i dont spell very well.. if you dont like it... *uck you

[jaguars4ever]

While I like KotOR better than TSL, is it really a fair test to compare a masterpiece like K1 to the un-finished product that is K2?

[SgtTeflon]

I agree. I just finished the game, and the feeling I'm left with is entirely average. This isn't a bad game, but it's no KOTOR1. I remember playing through that entire game in almost one straight sitting (it was a long sitting). I couldn't tear myself away from the game.

 

TSL is bleh. It started great, and ended so poorly. I mean, it's beyond explanation. I've read the reports of LA pressures, which I guess make sense, but still. Is it really fair to blame the publisher? Surely LA pushed Obsidian to get this game out ASAP, but if Obsidian had had the guts to stand up and say "hey, this game really isn't ready, and heres why..." surely LA would have come to its senses. The developer is responsible for development; the buck stops here.

 

Obsidian, you screwed up.

[Judge Hades]

Bugs aside, I like KotOR 2 more than KotOR 1. So far I have yet been able to predict any major events unlike the "You Are Revan" so called twist in KotOR 1.

[SgtTeflon]

Bugs aside, I like KotOR 2 more than KotOR 1.  So far I have yet been able to predict any major events unlike the "You Are Revan" so called twist in KotOR 1.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Give me a break?? There were NO twists in KOTOR2. The mysteries were set up, sure, but never resolved. Who was the masked man? Who knows, he died instantly and totally without explanation, shoving you along to the inevitable and bluntly obvious fight with Krea (sp?).

 

All the potential plot developments - the true motives of the Exchange, the force behind the counterfeit HK units, and the origins of the masked man - were completely ignored by this unfinished game!

 

So in that sense, I guess your right. It is impossible to predict any of the games plot twists beyond sheer speculation, because those threads were never resolved!

[Whitemithrandir]

That's just complete fanboyism with none of the logic. Stop trolling, thanks.

[Whitemithrandir]

Give me a break?? There were NO twists in KOTOR2. The mysteries were set up, sure, but never resolved. Who was the masked man? Who knows, he died instantly and totally without explanation, shoving you along to the inevitable and bluntly obvious fight with Krea (sp?).

 

All the potential plot developments - the true motives of the Exchange, the force behind the counterfeit HK units, and the origins of the masked man - were completely ignored by this unfinished game!

 

So in that sense, I guess your right. It is impossible to predict any of the games plot twists beyond sheer speculation, because those threads were never resolved!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Okay, I know you're trolling, but I'm a sucker for trolls so I'll bite:

 

WARNING: SPOILERS AHEAD

 

Twists don't make a story good, kid, good writing and storytelling style do that. The masked men is Darth Nihilus, a dark lord of the sith who survives by feeding on the force. When he tries to feed on you, he finds to his horror a vacuum of the force which debilitates him to the point of death. This pretty obvious, I thought.

 

The motives of the Exchange are explained aboard Goto's yacht. Goto wants your head because he has in his twisted little head a vision of a balanced republic; you're the catalyst to the recent events that spurred across the galaxy, and he wants you. This, also, is fairly obvious.

 

I always interpreted the HK units as tools of the exchange and nothing more. They don't serve any role beyond that of henchmen.

 

Play the game and read the dialogue next time, and maybe you'll appreciate the fine work that's been put into writing them.

 

Saying Bioware can do better is a stupid and uninformed statement. Given the circumstances, are you REALLY and ABSOLUTELY SURE one dev can do better than the other?

 

When Bioware published NWN, all the Black Isle fanboys were crying about how Black Isle can do better. I argued against them as I will argue against you now. Use your head.

[Zach Morris]

TSL is painfully easy. I can't motivate myself to play it right now. I'm about 25 hours in and I just kinda stopped. Maybe I'll play it tonight. I think what gets me frustrated is that I don't even think my main character has even been knocked unconscious in the game, much less have a chance for the whole party to die. Then I started running around with just my main character but that still didn't make a difference.

 

I remember when I first heard they were going to take away the player cap. I didn't like the idea. I thought that the developers would lose their ability to balance the game with that. Then I was like, wait a minute, they are game developers not me they know what they are doing. Now I realize that my gut instinct was correct.

 

Just so I'm not all complaining... I really enjoyed the first 15 hours or so of the game. Lots of fun just exploring, but instead of the game getting more challenging (which means more involving) it got easier. My level ups meant nothing to me because it didn't matter what I picked because I would kill all the enemies regardless.

[jaguars4ever]

You can't get anything more definitive than 'rushed game' here peeps :

 

**DO NOT GO HERE UNLESS YOU'VE FINISHED THE GAME**

 

Cut Ending Stuff

[Whitemithrandir]

::Game is too easy::

 

Why don't you put the level setting on difficult? I've played the game at normal for the first 10 hours, found it easy, and stimmed it up to difficult. I enjoyed the game immensely more after that.

 

My roommate, on the other hand, is new to the D20 system and has a hard time even on easy difficulty. It varies from person to person. The reason you hear a lot of complaints about the game being easy is because most people on these boards are familiar with the system.

 

That said, raising the difficulty made me enjoy the game much more. Perhaps it will do the same for you.

[Whitemithrandir]

You can't get anything more definitive than 'rushed game' here peeps :

 

I don't see why the fact that things were cut out makes this game any worse than it is. Would it have been better, would it have made you enjoy it more if these cuts were never discovered?

 

Could more elements be put into the game? Could the game have improved if given more time? Yes. But those are words that would have mattered 2 months ago that mean nothing now. Take the game for what it is, whether you consider it finished or unfinished, and judge it for what it is.

 

Me? I find it just fine. It's no Planescape: Torment, but the quality of the writing, the personal effects it had on me, the conflicts over grey domain, they appealed to me, and I like this game for what it is.

 

Perhaps if more time were spent on it I would like it more, but that doesn't make this game terrible as many of you are arguing.

 

Sorry for the double posts and all the ranting, but I do feel very passionately about this situation. It feels like NWN all over again. Neither Bioware nor Obsidian devs find "X company could have done better" comments regarding a franchise that teams on both companies poured their hearts and work into. Saying so, especially out of spite, just undermines everything both companies have done up to this point.

[SgtTeflon]

THE FOLLOWING IS PACKED FULL OF SPOITLERS!

 

"Twists don't make a story good, kid, good writing and storytelling style do that. The masked men is Darth Nihilus, a dark lord of the sith who survives by feeding on the force. When he tries to feed on you, he finds to his horror a vacuum of the force which debilitates him to the point of death. This pretty obvious, I thought. "

 

Ok, great. I got all of that minus the name. Wonderful. What was he doing in the Outer Rim eating planets? Who sent him? Why? Was he master, or slave? What happaned at Malachor V that spawned a creature who hungered for and ate the force? Why did he spare Vesas (sp)? What was the Republic doing at Telos? And the Dantooine militia? The Mandalorian army? The Onderon military?

 

"The motives of the Exchange are explained aboard Goto's yacht. Goto wants your head because he has in his twisted little head a vision of a balanced republic; you're the catalyst to the recent events that spurred across the galaxy, and he wants you. This, also, is fairly obvious."

 

Goto wants to save the Republic - wonderful. Why is the survival of Malachor V a vital component of this? You claim it's because he wants a balanced Republic. This just isn't true - Goto wants to SAVE the Republic and nothing more (or so he claims), and we are told that the counterbalance Malachor V provides is necesary for its survival. Why? And do we ever trigger the mass generator? Again, cut to credits, skip this sequence.

 

"I always interpreted the HK units as tools of the exchange and nothing more. They don't serve any role beyond that of henchmen."

 

Goto disavows any responsibility for the HK units.

 

"Saying Bioware can do better is a stupid and uninformed statement. Given the circumstances, are you REALLY and ABSOLUTELY SURE one dev can do better than the other?"

 

Given the information available, it is safe to assume Bioware probably would have done better. KOTOR1 was coherent and complete. This game isn't. I can't be absolutely certain of anything, save perhaps the sum of two numbers.

 

And there are more glaring problems...

 

Is the Exile truly the threat the Masters perceived? This seems logical, given Kreias obsession with his preservation. Given that, how can the Exile in good conscience allow himself to go on draining others? If he chooses a second exile, won't he again lose his power, making him a liability rather than asset for Revan? Would the destruction of Malachor V destroy the Exile, as well? Shouldn't Kreias death have? And just what is the nature of his unique connection to the force - how did it happen, how far does it lead, can it be controlled? What are the proper set of circumstances that allow for him to kill the force? None of this is explained as fully as it could have and should have been.

 

And in regards to you, personally, Whitemithrandir, the context of your posts is both patronizing and insulting. I would advise you to consider this before accusing others of "trolling."

[Whitemithrandir]

Ok, great. I got all of that minus the name. Wonderful. What was he doing in the Outer Rim eating planets? Who sent him? Why? Was he master, or slave? Why did he spare Vesas (sp)? What was the Republic doing at Telos? And the Dantooine militia? The Mandalorian army? The Onderon military?

 

There are some *interesting* (to say the least) speculations about the character, his background, and his origins. None of those mattered in the story. Much of the mystery surrounding the character adds to his mystique. It's not like obsidian pulled him out of nowhere. Kreia has a very long conversation with you concerning him, furthering the mystique and bending shadows around his character.

 

He served two purposes in the story:

1. A symbol of the force having a *will*.

2. A ladder leading up to a moment of sacrifice offered by Visas.

 

Both were achieved. Is Darth Nihilus a DEEP character? No, I don't think so. Is he a totally backgroundless rabbit Obsidian pulled out of a hat as you say? No, not at all.

 

Goto wants to save the Republic - wonderful. Why is the survival of Malachor V a vital component of this? You claim it's because he wants a balanced Republic. This just isn't true - Goto wants to SAVE the Republic and nothing more (or so he claims),

 

During your first run in with him on his yacht, he says the only reason he's aiding the republic is because the Sith is winning. He wants to restore a balanced galaxy.

 

 

And do we ever trigger the mass generator? Again, cut to credits, skip this sequence.

 

Your guess is as good as mine.

 

Goto disavows any responsibility for the HK units.

 

Good for Goto. They were interesting enemies. I won't ask where they come from anymore than I will ask where did all those orcs come from in random encounters of TOEE when I'm 2 inches away from Homlett.

 

 

 

Given the information available, it is safe to assume Bioware probably would have done better. KOTOR1 was coherent and complete. This game isn't. I can't be absolutely certain of anything, save perhaps the sum of two numbers.

 

Given the information available, Bioware would have made KOTOR II into another bland black vs white, good vs evil, light vs. dark, ying vs. yang indiana jones story with predictable heroes and machievallian villains. No thanks. I'll take Obsidian's story over that ANY DAY, despite not being flawless.

 

 

Bunch of "questions".

 

Much of it can be inferred, if not directly told to you. These speculations have been bored over and over again here on the spoiler forums. This isn't the thread about that.

 

This thread is about making the conclusing that Bioware could have done better than Obsidian given a one year deadline. I say that's wrong. If Bioware made KOTOR II, half the posters here would be complaining about how stupidly "Star wars-like" and how black and white the game is.

 

 

TSL is bleh. It started great, and ended so poorly. I mean, it's beyond explanation. I've read the reports of LA pressures, which I guess make sense, but still. Is it really fair to blame the publisher? Surely LA pushed Obsidian to get this game out ASAP, but if Obsidian had had the guts to stand up and say "hey, this game really isn't ready, and heres why..." surely LA would have come to its senses. The developer is responsible for development; the buck stops here.

 

haha....

 

Yeah... right.

 

I write novelettes along side my Engineering classes to get some extra money. Publishers will often constrict my deadline for no reason. If I say no? Too bad, find another publisher.

 

I also interned at Sierra last summer. Publishers have the very final say in how the game is released. That's the end of the matter.

[jaguars4ever]

You can't get anything more definitive than 'rushed game' here peeps :

 

I don't see why the fact that things were cut out makes this game any worse than it is. Would it have been better, would it have made you enjoy it more if these cuts were never discovered?

 

Could more elements be put into the game? Could the game have improved if given more time? Yes. But those are words that would have mattered 2 months ago that mean nothing now. Take the game for what it is, whether you consider it finished or unfinished, and judge it for what it is.

 

Me? I find it just fine. It's no Planescape: Torment, but the quality of the writing, the personal effects it had on me, the conflicts over grey domain, they appealed to me, and I like this game for what it is.

 

Perhaps if more time were spent on it I would like it more, but that doesn't make this game terrible as many of you are arguing.

 

Sorry for the double posts and all the ranting, but I do feel very passionately about this situation. It feels like NWN all over again. Neither Bioware nor Obsidian devs find "X company could have done better" comments regarding a franchise that teams on both companies poured their hearts and work into. Saying so, especially out of spite, just undermines everything both companies have done up to this point.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The thing is mith, the XBOXers were already aware of the lack of closure in the afforementioned story departements raised in that thread - *before* 'discovering' the actual cuts; it was as apparent as the gaping maw of a redwood stump.

 

Story elements were introduced so immensely...and then without any resolution simply stopped. The game would have been complete if they hadn't rushed it with such severity. The degree of this mad rush even decreed a single day's work too much time to spend:

 

The last time I put money on Akari, hooded robes and swoop ugrades were cut.  ^_^

You've got a point.

 

Still, while he may not be trustworthy in regards to what is going to be developed, I'm guessing he's much more reliable when it comes to what isn't being developed.

 

Hey, I never said anything about hooded robes. You got me on Swoop Upgrades though. I figured they were a sure thing, since about 80% of the work needed for them had been done fairly early in the project, and there was just a day's worth of interface changes left to support them. But in the end, it was decided that day's worth of work was better spent on something else, so they got the axe. Wasn't my call.

 

But my choices are either to never say anything, or go with what seems to be the case at the time. I guess I should just couch everything I say behind 'maybe, probably, perhaps, it could happen' more often.

 

As far as KotOR3 goes, it still isn't under development. We got a good laugh here at the office when that article went around.

 

-Akari

 

 

TSL's a good game, even it's it's unfinished, rushed state - but with a little more time (especially to complete the ending), it could have been on par with Torment.

[Whitemithrandir]

TSL's a good game, even it's it's unfinished, rushed state - but with a little more time (especially to complete the ending), it could have been on par with Torment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Agreed. I just don't believe people's arguments about Bioware doing better deserves any merit.

[jaguars4ever]

TSL's a good game, even it's it's unfinished, rushed state - but with a little more time (especially to complete the ending), it could have been on par with Torment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Agreed. I just don't believe people's arguments about Bioware doing better deserves any merit.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. I don't even waste my time reading unsubtantiated trolling.

[Whitemithrandir]

I write novelettes along side my Engineering classes to get some extra money. Publishers will often constrict my deadline for no reason. If I say no? Too bad, find another publisher.

 

I also interned at Sierra last summer. Publishers have the very final say in how the game is released. That's the end of the matter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Do I think Lucas Arts deserves all the blame? No. Obsidian agreed to the project knowing there would be these limitations, and they hold much of the responsibility (for good or ill) for this game.

 

And don't call me Mith. Call me

 

Darth Bal-dur, Supreme Lord of the Sith, Batteries Not Included.

[SgtTeflon]

"During your first run in with him on his yacht, he says the only reason he's aiding the republic is because the Sith is winning. He wants to restore a balanced galaxy."

 

That's what your fed on the yacht. Later, he retracts it, when you find out he's a droid intelligence given the impossible order of saving the Republic. Which doesn't answer the question - why is a balanced galaxy, and Malachor V in specific, necesarry for the Republic to survive? Goto promises to explain that when he tells the little floating droid guy to "wait and see" what the exile chooses to do, then never does. Because the game was never finished.

 

"Your guess is as good as mine."

 

Exactly. We're forced to speculate because the sequences that were opened weren't closed. It's a novel without an ending.

 

"I won't ask where they come from anymore than I will ask where did all those orcs come from in random encounters of TOEE when I'm 2 inches away from Homlett."

 

The difference being, TOEE doesn't start a story thread regarding the origin of those Orcs, then not bother to finish it. I don't give a damn where the six dozen Fallen Jedi on Malachor V came from, because they arent' relevant to the story. Theyr just filler. However, when a story arc in a story-focused game is opened, but never closed, it's reason to compain. Why? Because it's very likely that Obsidian intended to finish what it started, but decided not to later on because it wasn't worth the time. That isn't good enough.

 

"Given the information available, Bioware would have made KOTOR II into another bland black vs white, good vs evil, light vs. dark, ying vs. yang indiana jones story with predictable heroes and machievallian villains. No thanks. I'll take Obsidian's story over that ANY DAY, despite not being flawless."

 

Let's take a gander at KOTOR2. Villian wants to destroy the Force, and use you to do it. You like the Force, either because your really evil and want to kill lots of hapless folk or really good and want to save the galaxy. And you certainly don't like being used. So you kill villian. Rich.

 

"This thread is about making the conclusing that Bioware could have done better than Obsidian given a one year deadline. I say that's wrong. If Bioware made KOTOR II, half the posters here would be complaining about how stupidly "Star wars-like" and how black and white the game is."

 

It's a game about moral choices and the consequences of those choices. As such, it needs to exaggerate the "black" and the "white," regardless of how "grey" the real world might be. But that isn't relevant here - whats relevant is the fact that this game was not finished. Period. There is plenty of evidence to support that conclusion, much of it contained in the games dialogue files themselves! And it's a damn shame, especially given how much more polished and complete the first one was. KOTOR1 set the expectations high, and Obsidian dropped the ball. Period. Blame development times, blame LA, blame the sun god, or whatever - it doesn't change the fact.

[Whitemithrandir]

Let's bring the thread back on track:

 

 

It's a game about moral choices and the consequences of those choices. As such, it needs to exaggerate the "black" and the "white," regardless of how "grey" the real world might be. But that isn't relevant here - whats relevant is the fact that this game was not finished. Period. There is plenty of evidence to support that conclusion, much of it contained in the games dialogue files themselves! And it's a damn shame, especially given how much more polished and complete the first one was. KOTOR1 set the expectations high, and Obsidian dropped the ball. Period. Blame development times, blame LA, blame the sun god, or whatever - it doesn't change the fact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What's not finished about this game? The main conflict is OVER and DONE with. Your final showdown with Kreia, the revelations, the quelling of your inner conflict... It certainly wasn't a very satisfactory or conclusive ending, and seemed to hint for a sequel, but IT WAS AN ENDING NONETHELESS. The major conflict, namely you vs. your past, is SOLVED. OVER and DONE with.

 

I don't think ANYONE is to blame for the game as it is. I think Obsidian and Lucas Arts are to blame for what the GAME COULD HAVE BEEN. There is a difference. Using your line of reasoning, all of this doens't change the fact that it IS possible Bioware could not have done better.

 

You like the trend of black and white, morally clear and satisfying tales, great. Hey, I liked Lampchop Sing Along when I was a kid, who am I to judge your tastes? I, for one, despise simple, stereotypical good vs. evil stories. Why? Things in life rarely happen that way, and comparing myself to characters in the story told to me makes me enjoy it more.

 

I'm not alone in this line of thinking.

 

I don't care if Bioware can make a bug-free and shinely polished KOTOR II. It'll be in the same tradition as every other Bioware game: morally clear, devestatingly distinct, and dreadfully BORING (at least to me, since I HATED KOTOR).

 

So you see, it's a matter of taste. Different developers have different styles that appeal to different audiences. Who are you to say who's what and which is better?

 

 

I'm not defending Obsidian, nor am I attacking Bioware. Both devs are known to make different kinds of games that appeal to different kinds of people. The fact that they're working together like they are on KOTOR II and NWN II should be something to rejoice about, not make stupid and uninformed accusations of "X can do better than Y", because saying that just makes you look stupid.

[Zach Morris]

::Game is too easy::

 

Why don't you put the level setting on difficult? I've played the game at normal for the first 10 hours, found it easy, and stimmed it up to difficult. I enjoyed the game immensely more after that.

 

My roommate, on the other hand, is new to the D20 system and has a hard time even on easy difficulty. It varies from person to person. The reason you hear a lot of complaints about the game being easy is because most people on these boards are familiar with the system.

 

That said, raising the difficulty made me enjoy the game much more. Perhaps it will do the same for you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have only played on the difficult setting. Even for KOTOR. I don't even know what the easy and normal settings are like <shutters>

[Zach Morris]

alright I'll stop complaining and start playing again... here it goes.

[Azure79]

alright I'll stop complaining and start playing again... here it goes.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Zach Morris...I looked at your picture and I am scared. Why are there two men in close proximity with each other, their shirts open, smiling at everyone?

 

But back to the thread.

 

Let's not play the blame game here. What's done is done is done.

 

Everyone is a little dissapointed with the end of K2. Don't tell me you aren't just a little bit!

 

Some people just focus on all the good stuff about the game and some people just concentrate on what K2 could have been.

 

I'm conflicted myself. It is a good game but could have been more. It makes me sad. But that didn't stop me from starting a DS game to forget my sadness. Heh, what's in the game is pretty good.

[Adan]

Given the information available, Bioware would have made KOTOR II into another bland black vs white, good vs evil, light vs. dark, ying vs. yang indiana jones story with predictable heroes and machievallian villains. No thanks. I'll take Obsidian's story over that ANY DAY, despite not being flawless.

 

You got it spot on there for me to, i think the story for TSL is 200x better than K1.

[Brannart]

Zach Morris...I looked at your picture and I am scared. Why are there two men in close proximity with each other, their shirts open, smiling at everyone?

 

Not a "Saved by the Bell" fan eh? But then again who is

[NeverwinterKnight]

Zach Morris...I looked at your picture and I am scared. Why are there two men in close proximity with each other, their shirts open, smiling at everyone?

 

Not a "Saved by the Bell" fan eh? But then again who is

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

im a saved by the bell fan. but id rather have kelly kapowski pictures up than zach and slater. "