Now Im Just Pissed....time to return!

[Snibbles]

UGGHHHHH.....

 

After a very frustrating result of trying to install the damn game. I finally got it going only to be stopped by some stupid black screen. I then upgraded my video drivers to OMega and tada it works. So now I'm past the black screen prob most peeps are having, but now i cant get off the damn mining station, when i start shooting with the ebon hawk in the hangewr to tak eout the soldiers It gets real slow and finally quits. But then i tried to disable the Vertex Buffer and that fixed that problem but now everytime i try to load a game/area my cpu crashes hardcore (bluescreen of death). So now I can say R.I.P. KOTOR 2 TSL, your predesscor has bested you.

 

This is one Master that will always stay on my computer desk. KOTOR 1.

 

Incase anyones interested:

 

Cpu Spec-

 

Windows XP (<---Probally the first problem is having this installed)

 

Athlon 64FX

 

Radeon 9800se (128mb)

 

512ram, PC3200, 200MHZ

 

onboard sound (5.1 surrond sound)

[Priori Incantatem]

don't return. I'm sure there is a big patch coming, because the game is filled with bugs.

[John Goa]

it's obviously the best way to say it...

[JamieKirby]

alot of people i know have yet to enounter any bugs, what ATI Drivers you using? (even if it is omega, or dna, what ones are they based on?)

 

alot of people are saying 4.11 is the best to play the game on, anything lower = faster performance, but higher instability, wither anything higher and you get the problem of slowdowns like on Kotor I in open areas...but i can't confirm this, since i haven't got the game yet.

 

but you should give up on it yet, wait a little while for a big patch, Obsidian and Lucasarts, owe us that much atleast.

[sanskrit]

what does the blue screen say? it will usually have an error as well as sometimes reference a specific driver

 

goto control panel, admin tools, event viewer, anything there for when it crashes?

[heliotic]

but you should give up on it yet, wait a little while for a big patch, Obsidian and Lucasarts, owe us that much atleast.

 

They owe us a patch, but that means bugger all. Look at MOO3, a great example of a company owing fans a patch but not delivering.

 

I have to wonder how Atari is feeling, considering they're expecting Obsidian to deliver a quality NWN2 product, and everyone here has basically just been given a big dose of 'Bioware->Obsidian' conversion juice.

[sanskrit]

i'm not sure if anyone 'owes' you a patch

you purchased the product 'as-is' and agreed to that when opening the box (EULA)

 

i agree there are issues and a patch would be nice, although i may be a bit lax on wanting one

my problems are few and most of my reasons for wanting a patch are to fix in-game glitches, not any serious issues... just because i don't have them

 

it would appear LA may be producing a patch instead of obsidian

i can't be sure, that is just the feeling i get

 

although it would be odd... i wonder how much of an actual hand they had in production of the game

i would think they were more or less some influence over content because it is their license, and that they QA'd it and are now supporting it... i wonder if they had actual programmers on it though

 

it would certainly put more clout behind LA producing a patch while obsidian is left to work on NWN2

i love KotOR2 but i really hope they do better with the scripting in NWN2... it is pretty bad in kotor2... it could be blamed on the animation but maybe it was hard to work with

 

i assume they're using their own engine for nwn2? why have i rambled this long?

[heliotic]

i'm not sure if anyone 'owes' you a patch

you purchased the product 'as-is' and agreed to that when opening the box (EULA)

 

They promised me a functional product [1], as part of the transaction we made where I gave them money. (This is the corner stone of our consumer protection laws).

 

Thus far, they haven't delivered! Since I still want to play the game, I'm willing to wait for a patch, but under the implied contract, they do indeed owe us a patch.

 

 

[1] If the game doesn't work on ATI cards out of the box, they should never have included ATI cards on the list of supported cards. I wouldn't have bought the game, and everyone would be happy.

[sanskrit]

im not disagreeing that there are issues

 

however the product is sold as is and if it doesn't work for you (defective) you can return it to them for a full refund, they have no obligation to make the game work for you

 

i sure hope they do, you should be able to play and enjoy it

 

its a pet peeve of mine i guess, when people demand things when there really is no right for them to do so other than they believe they should be entitled to it, maybe its from working retail for so many years

 

no offense meant towards you personally

[Foamhead]

Well, this is as good a time to post my first message as any.

 

i'm not sure if anyone 'owes' you a patch

you purchased the product 'as-is' and agreed to that when opening the box

 

and

 

however the product is sold as is and if it doesn't work for you (defective) you can return it to them for a full refund, they have no obligation to make the game work for you

 

i sure hope they do, you should be able to play and enjoy it

 

its a pet peeve of mine i guess, when people demand things when there really is no right for them to do so other than they believe they should be entitled to it, maybe its from working retail for so many years

 

One of my pet peeves is when people think that they are lawyers and then I find out they have never set foot in a law class.

 

The phrase "as is" applies to what the purchaser can reasonably see or expect from the product in question. If I sell you a car "as is" and the transmission falls out on the highway sending you to your speedy doom, the judge would laugh his butt off if I tried to say I'm not responsible.

 

When a consumer buys a piece of software like KotOR 2 and the game does not load or is non-functional in some way then that is called "fraud". So yes Obsidian and/or Lucasarts does in fact "owe" a patch to it's customers. If some person had no life and could afford the filing fee then they could sue a company for bugged out software.

 

I am personally a tad forgiving when a large game has a few bugs. It is impossible to release a title bug free and I don't kick up a fuss if I know a patch is on the way. What I find troubling is there are some people who simply can not even install the game or load it and there has still not been a patch. When a similar problem occurs on the first game Bioware had a beta patch out almost instantly and the same should have been done here.

 

On a side not, I have worked retail too so I understand how annoying and rude people can be, my best advice brother is get the hell out as soon as you can.

[DarthPanda]

I have to wonder how Atari is feeling, considering they're expecting Obsidian to deliver a quality NWN2 product, and everyone here has basically just been given a big dose of 'Bioware->Obsidian' conversion juice.

Bah, after playing Temple of Elemental Evil I doubt Atari cares about anything other than making sure Obsidian meets the deadline - and I wouldn't be surprised if they also push up the deadline to meet some holiday.

 

Only a handful of official patches for ToEE were released, which stopped coming out a year ago, and even now you still need the Co8 fan patches to get the game to work correctly.

 

It seems like bad luck that Obsidian would get contracts from two publishers that care more about short-term gain than quality.

[sanskrit]

with a good EULA you could never sue a software company for their software, well you could but you would get no where

 

look at page 40+41 in the back of your manual

 

"By installing or otherwise using the software, you are agreeing to be bound by the terms of this license."

 

"... the Software and any related documentation or materials are provided "AS IS" and without warranty of any kind. (Except for the limited 90 day warranty)"

 

"LucasArts does not warrant that the functions contained in the software will meet your requirements, that the operation of the software will be uninterrupted or error-free, or that defects in the software will be corrected."

 

you agree to a binding contract when you open the box and install the game, any lawyer would laugh in your face if you tried unless there were a HUGE amount of claims and the software ... i dunno... put a virus on your machine or something similar

 

indeed if you sold a car 'as is' and wrote up a sound and legally binding contract then those were the terms of the agreement (regardless what happens to the car after purchased), it would probably help to have it notarized or something, but still... placing an ad in the paper 'as is' isn't a contract, the EULA is (end user license agreement)

 

i am not a lawyer and i never claimed to be, i work for a software developer and i know the validity of a license agreement

[JamieKirby]

but you should give up on it yet, wait a little while for a big patch, Obsidian and Lucasarts, owe us that much atleast.

 

They owe us a patch, but that means bugger all. Look at MOO3, a great example of a company owing fans a patch but not delivering.

 

I have to wonder how Atari is feeling, considering they're expecting Obsidian to deliver a quality NWN2 product, and everyone here has basically just been given a big dose of 'Bioware->Obsidian' conversion juice.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

MOO3 sucked like nuts, MOO2 is far more better and superior.

[Foamhead]

with a good EULA you could never sue a software company for their software, well you could but you would get no where

 

look at page 40+41 in the back of your manual

 

"By installing or otherwise using the software, you are agreeing to be bound by the terms of this license."

 

"... the Software and any related documentation or materials are provided "AS IS" and without warranty of any kind. (Except for the limited 90 day warranty)"

 

"LucasArts does not warrant that the functions contained in the software will meet your requirements, that the operation of the software will be uninterrupted or error-free, or that defects in the software will be corrected."

 

you agree to a binding contract when you open the box and install the game, any lawyer would laugh in your face if you tried unless there were a HUGE amount of claims and the software ... i dunno... put a virus on your machine or something similar

 

indeed if you sold a car 'as is' and wrote up a sound and legally binding contract then those were the terms of the agreement (regardless what happens to the car after purchased), it would probably help to have it notarized or something, but still... placing an ad in the paper 'as is' isn't a contract, the EULA is (end user license agreement)

 

i am not a lawyer and i never claimed to be, i work for a software developer and i know the validity of a license agreement

 

Well I am one up on you then because I did study law. The EULA on the back of that manual doesn't mean squat. If a software company tried to use it's user agreement to escape responsibility for a product I would just argue plain sight. A lot of people see those cartoons where the guy signs a contract and then after he gets butt reamed finds out their are additional terms that can only be seen under extreme magnification. Since that contract is not on the box when the purchase is made, the buyer is not bound by anything it says. Besides that, the second you bury important legalities in a sea of text you, (the software company) can no longer claim any benefits because you are effectively hiding key articles from the buyer.

[John Goa]

I would like to get a refund. If I go to the store where I bought the game with my proof of purchase will it work ?

The game installed correctly but did not work. I had all the system requirements that are written on the box.

thank you

[sanskrit]

I would like to get a refund. If I go to the store where I bought the game with my proof of purchase will it work ?

The game installed correctly but did not work. I had all the system requirements that are written on the box.

thank you

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

it is possible they will but you may need to have a refund issued through lucasarts and they will give you one if the retailer doesn't

 

 

the EULA has saved game devlopers in multiple cases, and saying it means squat... you obviously have no idea what you're talking about

you think they put it there as a joke? or to try to scare people? EULA's do hold up in court, there are many cases of it

 

you are not bound by the EULA when you purchase it, you are bound when you install it and not only is it in the back of the manual, you have to manually agree to it while installing the game

 

your physical acceptance says that you have read and understand the agreement

 

i can see some of your points but they simply would not hold up, find me a case where someone challenged a game developers EULA for having a buggy game and won

 

they offer full refunds, there is no obligation for them to make the game work on your system

[heliotic]

it is possible they will but you may need to have a refund issued through lucasarts and they will give you one if the retailer doesn't

 

EULA's have NEVER been tested in court - case law of that magnitude would rattle through the IP world like some kind of crazy rattling thing. Unless you can cite a specific case, I'm afraid I'm going to have to call you on that.

[MaglorD]

It boggles the mind that there are always people who will defend a defective product like it's their baby. Please, a defective product deserves to be condemned so the developers/publishers realise they should provide better quality assurance instead of rushing the product out the door and moving on to creating some more buggy crashing games.

[Master Dahvernas]

It boggles the mind that there are always people who will defend a defective product like it's their baby. Please, a defective product deserves to be condemned so the developers/publishers realise they should provide better quality assurance instead of rushing the product out the door and moving on to creating some more buggy crashing games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Then the PC Games industry wouldn't exist (maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing in the long run)?

 

What I mean is that I agree with what you are saying... But the games industry is the only industry that I know of in the U.S. where they CAN sell essentially defective and unfinished products, legally, and get away with it and not be held accountable because of EULAs.

 

I am not a lawyer, but the main thing that companies can defend on is if the game runs on something like 70% of hardware (usually, the QA test sampling).

 

So, in other words, just because it doesn't run for one person, or maybe even a thousand people's systems... If that percentage (even in 1000s of people) is less than 70% of the total people who bought the game (millions), then the publisher/developers are protected is my understanding.

 

This is exactly why no EULA will ever be tested in court becuse of the mathematic "loop-hole" that I read about above.

[MaglorD]

It boggles the mind that there are always people who will defend a defective product like it's their baby. Please, a defective product deserves to be condemned so the developers/publishers realise they should provide better quality assurance instead of rushing the product out the door and moving on to creating some more buggy crashing games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Then the PC Games industry wouldn't exist (maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing in the long run)?

 

What I mean is that I agree with what you are saying... But the games industry is the only industry that I know of in the U.S. where they CAN sell essentially defective and unfinished products, legally, and get away with it and not be held accountable because of EULAs.

 

I am not a lawyer, but the main thing that companies can defend on is if the game runs on something like 70% of hardware (usually, the QA test sampling).

 

So, in other words, just because it doesn't run for one person, or maybe even a thousand people's systems... If that percentage (even in 1000s of people) is less than 70% of the total people who bought the game (millions), then the publisher/developers are protected is my understanding.

 

This is exactly why no EULA will ever be tested in court becuse of the mathematic "loop-hole" that I read about above.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sure they may get away with it legally but if people stop buying their defective products they go out of business. What is irritating are apologists who go about defending this dubious practice in the first place.

[sanskrit]

make a complex game that runs on 100% of all machines and you will be worshipped

it just isn't possible

 

there are obviously some big big problems with kotor2

same as the first one it was developed as a console game and the pc version is an afterthought, although i hear the xbox version is just as buggy

 

facts are that console games outsell pc games hands down, why put in extra work to polish a pc game when you can get better sales by making a console game that is easier to produce?

 

it isn't dubious, it's business

 

 

i also am not defending the practice of not supporting a game properly, only fighting against a mindset that makes the consumer believe they deserve something extra

 

LA or Obs should release a patch, it is the right thing for them to do

however they are not obligated to, of course they will or else they would take a huge PR hit and possibly lose sales

 

i just don't appreciate it when people start demanding things when they are not entitled to do so

ask nicely, provide information on what is wrong with the game, provide thoughtful posts

don't get red in the face and start screaming about how you better get your moneys worth OR ELSE

you can get a full refund within the first 90 days if you don't like the game or it doesn't work for you and they never release a patch so that it does

 

i think that is more than fair, but if you don't like dealing with this you may want to pick up an xbox, ps2 or gamecube

 

it is a reality all PC users have come to expect and deal with, it will not change because you're outraged

[Boba Fett]

sanskrit, at the risk of getting banned I have to say you really get on my nerves. There's always one fanboy on every forum who likes nothing better than to bash end users at any opportunity in a vain attempt at being promoted to moderator status.

 

I really don't care about any of your lawyer speak either. These are simply folks who are miffed because they just spent

[zer"0"]

Its very disheartening to read about all the problems many are having, ATI bugs and CTDs, video hangs, unfinished quests, et all. Log on to Gamespy/IGN forums to taste the wrath of 12 yo noobs. ROFL1!!

 

Kind of surprised too. Seeing as its the same engine and tech of KOTOR1. Tech which is getting a bit long in the tooth now.

Guess I'll hold of on purchasing TSL. Too bad I was kind of lookiing forward to it. Lets hope to see if a patch gets released, sometime in the future.

I'll be playing Bloodlines meanwhile. At least it was patched and runs fine on my PC.

Good luck to those with problems, hope its gets resolved somehow.

[heliotic]

i also am not defending the practice of not supporting a game properly, only fighting against a mindset that makes the consumer believe they deserve something extra

 

We're not talking about something 'extra', we're talking about basic functionality which was promised when the game was bought.

 

They said on the box it would work on ATI cards and it doesn't. [At least not without significant driver fussing]. We're not talking about a few select computers either, we're talking about (roughly) half of the computers out there.

 

In the end, I think Obsidian will be lucky. The skill of their writers has made up for the incompetence of their developers, and I think once the poor ATI users get everything working they will be happy enough with the end result.

[Darth Ni]

i also am not defending the practice of not supporting a game properly, only fighting against a mindset that makes the consumer believe they deserve something extra

 

We're not talking about something 'extra', we're talking about basic functionality which was promised when the game was bought.

 

They said on the box it would work on ATI cards and it doesn't. [At least not without significant driver fussing]. We're not talking about a few select computers either, we're talking about (roughly) half of the computers out there.

 

In the end, I think Obsidian will be lucky. The skill of their writers has made up for the incompetence of their developers, and I think once the poor ATI users get everything working they will be happy enough with the end result.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You have to place a lot of the blame on LucasArts and Mike Gallo since they rushed this game into release.