When KOTOR was created, was the TSL story in mind?

[Darth Nuke]

I've been reading a lot of debating here, and am intrigued to write one of my own. So, here goes.

 

As many of you have pointed out on this board, (I believe) a third PC would be silly. Some of you have stated that Exile's journey and Revan's journies have been competed. I don't believe that to be the case at all.

 

In KOTOR II, they never really gave true closing to Exile's. Just a battered ship, sauntering off into the depths of space to search for Revan. And although Revan was given some closure to the first KOTOR, they've completey written that off in the second game. In fact, they decided to give Revan a whole new role: fighting the Sith threat that borders along the edge of the galaxy. So, Exile's in incomplete and Revan has yet another to tell. What would be the point in adding a third PC into the story?

 

What would their role be in relation to Revan and the Exile? Some of your argue that the point would be to finish Revan's and Exile's stories. But why have some schmo take the burdens the first two characters upon themselves to finish? Then, my question(s) that I pose to you would be this. What would be the point in having Exile (or Revan for that matter) go out and search for the True Sith only to have another person find them out and finish their quest for them? What the heck were Revan and Exile doing while this third PC is running around doing their thing? LA wouldn't be getting as much 'green nicotine' as they would hope for if that was the scenario in KOTOR III. (imo)

 

I don't think a background could establish another character as Force sensitive. In KOTOR II, the Jedi are near extinct and not many remain and are either in hiding or have forsaken the ways and code of the Jedi. To have some novice punk all of a sudden come in tune with the Force and go out searching for your previous PC's would be folly from where I'm standing. And why would any Jedi (who remained in hiding duirng TSL) sprout up now and take on the challenge posed by these "True Sith" when they would not even rise to aid the galaxy against the three Sith aligned against you in TSL? To those who turned from the code - they chose to turn from the code. Why return to something they willing turned from?

 

The Exile is pardoned because s/he felt as thought the Council exiled him/her and was unaware that it was a matter of choice - not a sentence (at least according to Disciple it was a matter of decision and not a verdict)

 

And why have someone else do what was already comissioned to the Exile? To go out and find Revan (and Exile). Is the Exile that incompetent? Bleh. Revan needs to finish the story newly appointed to him/her, and Exile needs to finish theirs. So my opinion for a third installment would be to have alterations between Revan and Exile on their journies (of course, after meeting up with each other). Perhaps some new party members and run-ins with old characters could be integrated in as your crew begins to grow/form in your perspective party. 

 

I believe the point of the KOTOR series is to develp the plot/storyline given, and character appointed to you at the beginning of your campaign. How would the third PC's character become developed accomplishing what Revan and Exile set out to do? (give me some insight, I'm really too tired to try and think this one out)

 

Bah, thanks for your time to read my ho-hum ramblings. If these fail to make sense to you in any way, my apologies. I am half awake and trying to think - pretty dangerous combo there. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I applaud thee

[Saint]

We don't need another point of view, or a fresh perspective. If that was so then why didn't Lucas just ditch Anakin and Luke for newer characters each movie? This is Star Wars, KOTOR is Star WArs. IT's being based off a trilogy, trilogies have one dominant hero. Revan is that hero. To not be him,and not to finish the story from his point of view is lame and make's Revan useless in the end. His story would never be concluded in the way it should if a new pc, with some lame excuse for not having powers, comes along.

 

KOTOR doens't need 3 hero's. You want to choose things you can. You can make Exile or Revan look a different way, do their stats and etc. Only thing you wouldn't be able to do is name them, and naming Exile was dumb anyway.

 

Many RPG's have their main characters already made. So it's not right to say that the fun part RPG's is building the character, because in many cases that isn't true.

 

This is Star Wars, and KOTOR should end with either Revan or the Exile. No other, because another would just get in the way. Not to mention a cliche, of repeating itself in 3 games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thing is - we don't know exactly how the story is going to be played out in the end. Yes, Revan seems to be the major character, but KOTOR as a game franchise seems to be all about characters who get a second chance and have to choose how they will contribute to the overall story. Revan has to play a significant part in K3 to properly conclude the story, and I would think Exile probably does as well, but for gameplay purposes it would not be the same to play an already established character. It would be pretty cool I think, for the K3 PC to be maybe be a new apprentice of Revan (again you would need to establish the facts about Revan to know where you fit in the story) who would have a lot of interaction with Revan as the story unfolds and ends up playing a huge part, for instance in either keeping Revan on the light side or corrupting him back to the dark side (if Revan starts lightside) or by bringing Revan back to the light or continuing Revans desecent in to the DS (if Revan starts darkside). There's a number of possibilities, but either way it would not be the same kind of experience to actually play a character we already know.

 

Another possibility would be starting as a smuggler or something who ends up with a mysterious and unknown passenger who ends up being Revan - in that case Revan might serve in a similar capacity to Kreia as a sort of mysterious persona who teaches you the way of the force and as part of the story you are transporting Revan from world to world as he does whatever he does and eventually you become a key to the fate of galaxy by Revan's side.

 

I personally think either of those scenarios would be far more interesting than just starting as Revan, etc. You may not want a fresh perspective, but KOTOR seems geared toward creating a fresh perspective - otherwise you don't have the freedom to really develop your character. Its like 3 different chapters in the same story that revolve around 3 different people who ultimately are tied together for good or evil. There's a lot of potential there I think.

[Darth Nuke]

KOTOR seems to be geared to destroying the Sith. The next game will no doubt be about the War against the True Sith. We don't need a fresh perspective from a moron new PC, who isn't needed. Who comes along and steals Revans or the Exiles thunder. No, shouldn't happen.

 

Revan shouldn't be put into a Kreia position either, because he's to important to be sitting in the back ground.

 

The only way to end this trilogy is from the perspective of the man who started all, and who should be allowed to finish it.

[DSLuke]

KOTOR seems to be geared to destroying the Sith. The next game will no doubt be about the War against the True Sith. We don't need a fresh perspective from a moron new PC, who isn't needed. Who comes along and steals Revans or the Exiles thunder. No, shouldn't happen.

 

Revan shouldn't be put into a Kreia position either, because he's to important to be sitting in the back ground.

 

The only way to end this trilogy is from the perspective of the man who started all, and who should be allowed to finish it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, grab a new lightsaber for Revan. This fellow has some gutting to do....

[Saint]

Well - I guess we'll all have to wait and see - seems we all have our own perspectives on what should happen. I'm sure we'll all be surprised in some way by the reality when it happens. I'm looking forward to it. Having said that however I think it would be good if Bioware had a little more input and made sure that Obsidian actually followed up all of the little hinted at quests that never really happened (i.e. The HK Factory).

[Objulen]

From some of the sound files in the game that didn't make the final cut, it seems that KOTOR 3 is at least alluded to at some level. Whether or not this means one will be prduced, however, is a different matter.

 

Here's the conversation:

 

Mandalore, to Visas, "You sound like Reven, at the end. Do you know what she told me, as I lay dying on the outer rim? That the Mandalorian Wars were our doom. That we had been decieved, that it had never been our decision to wage war on the Republic. Reven said the Mandalorians didn't invade the Rupublic's space because it was our choice. We were tricked; our entire people sacrificed as pawns, and never knew it!

 

She said there was a war coming, that it was waiting in the unknown regions, in the dark, waiting for us to destroy each other."

 

Visas, "A war? This war?"

 

Mandalore, "No, not this one. Another one, more terrible, against an evil we couldn't begin to comprehend. A war of belief that had been fought for thousands of years. Reven went off to fight it..."

 

Visas, "... and left you here."

 

Mandalore, "Reven was one of the greatest military leaders in the galaxy. In history. She had no use for a people who had already been beaten once. She said the time of the Mandalorians was over. The Mandalorian wars had killed us. And she laughed."

 

Visas, "And that is what burns in your heart, and that is why clan Ordo was reborn: to prove Reven wrong."

 

Mandalore, "No, not Reven."

 

This is appears to be the dialog for a DS female Reven. There are a few extra sound files for male and LS combinations.

[Saint]

Where did you get that from, pray tell??

[Muad'Dib]

Saint, there's a bunch of dialogue files inside the installation that weren't used in the game, scenes that for one reason or another were left out but at the very least were made so far as to have the actors record these scenes.

 

There's lengthier endings; female PC meeting Atton, male PC saying goodbye to Handmaiden or Visas before he leaves, Atton tortured and murdered by Sion, Visas and Handmaiden fighting, Atton and Disciple fighting and a whole slew of others.

 

There's a thread in the spoilers forum that has a litsting of what each says and even some of the clips reconstructed. Like Atton's death and his alternate departure with female PC when game ends.

[ChaosRose_x]

KOTOR seems to be geared to destroying the Sith. The next game will no doubt be about the War against the True Sith. We don't need a fresh perspective from a moron new PC, who isn't needed. Who comes along and steals Revans or the Exiles thunder. No, shouldn't happen.

 

Revan shouldn't be put into a Kreia position either, because he's to important to be sitting in the back ground.

 

The only way to end this trilogy is from the perspective of the man who started all, and who should be allowed to finish it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree. Too many chefs spoil the broth. I think that same instance can be used here in this situation. Not that I want to pick on those who are pro-new PC, you know, to each their own. But I would have to ask each of you this question. Since the KOTOR series has 'Force bonds' related in their overall plot, what or rather, who would be that bond for the third PC? I believe that Exile and Revan have a bond established already with each other, and to think of something for the third PC to have a bond to would take a lot of creativity and brain storming. Don't think the producers would have that much time to do it; if they want their game out before Christmas...

 

To Saint: Your ideas for having the third PC be an apprentice of Revan were very interesting. But Revan only remained in the Republic for about a standard year (I believe) before s/he left to fight the 'True Sith'. During that time, I doubt there was enough time to take on an apprentice. After taking role of the Dark Master again, the only apprentice Revan would consider having I think would be Bastila. Because Revan knows Bastila's loyalty to him/her. I doubt Revan would want to suggest him/herself to an usurped rule should he/she take on another apprentice aside from Bastila. (Now in regards to LS ending) There might be an applicable situation for LS ending, but that wouldn't be open ended enough (imho). To have an apprentice available if Revan was LS but not DS is not giving you a lot of options to build your new character with. Besides, I'm pretty sure the DS Revan setting would not allow for an apprentice. In the holocron on Korriban, Bastila remains the only one loyal to Revan and his/her cause. The others disband.

 

Although perhaps that idea could be suggested into another KOTOR game, after the True Sith are dealt with. Because, frankly I love your idea. I just don't think it could be implemented into the game without question. Where was the apprentice during the TSL wars? And, I think the apprentice would be sent to search for Revan more so than the Exile considering the apprentice would have more revent connectiosn with Revan than the Exile. Just from where I'm standing, that would make more logical sense. I just want to finish the saga with Revan.

 

I thought that Revan's past and story had been addressed in KI. However, when KII was released, it stated that Revan had begun to remember things from his/her past that s/he had done. That leaves a whole 'nother part of Revan's story to be told. I would prefer having Revan tell his/her story over some third person's perspective of Revan's tale.

 

And as Darth Nuke said, although Kreia was pivotal to the story in KII, I would rather not have Revan as the new step in Kreia. Revan is the center of attention in this whole adventure. Or so, that is what I am lead to perceive. I believe if the job of teacher belonged to anyone, it would be Jolee. Revan is enthralled in facing the Sith alone, and I don't believe s/he would willingly drag someone not Force sensitive to begin with, into the confrontation. And if Revan was to be the new mentor, it would be KII all over again, different characters different scenario - same ideas.

 

 

Well - I guess we'll all have to wait and see - seems we all have our own perspectives on what should happen.  I'm sure we'll all be surprised in some way by the reality when it happens.  I'm looking forward to it.  Having said that however I think it would be good if Bioware had a little more input and made sure that Obsidian actually followed up all of the little hinted at quests that never really happened (i.e. The HK Factory).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AMEN. I am in total agreement with you. :: So smart, you are

BTW, I had heard something in regards to the whole Mandalore/Visas conversation. Mandalore gets wounded on the Ravanger (I think) and Visas is healing him or something, and he starts to talk about Revan. I'm certain I've heard of this being mentioned before. But...I don't own the PC version - because I was weak and took the Xbox version...with all of its bugs and DREAFUL loading times, so I would not be able to confirm it or give your leads to find the file.

[Saint]

The more I think about the possible scenarios the more I like the idea of a new PC being someone who really doesn't suspect a thing - kind of like Revan started out in K1 - as far as he knew he was just some joe-schmo soldier who took a nap at a weird time.

 

The thing about Revan is that we know now that he went to find/fight the true Sith on the borders of the galaxy or whatever.. but you know that the fight is going to end up back in Republic space sooner or later, otherwise there would be nothing but a bunch of desolate planets to explore. Not exactly rife with sidequests or extra party members, methinks.

 

So if we move another 5 years into the future for K3 (supposing) and Revan has done what he went to the outer rim to do (possibly with The Exile's help) and now he has to finish what he started with the Republic (for good or evil) - so he uses the force to summon transportation (like putting out a call that a force sensitive would follow unconciously), and the one who receives the call is (for consistancy's sake) the current owner/captain of the Ebon Hawk.. perhaps a smuggler or gun runner or Han Soloesqe character who is used to running blockades and hiding contraband. The character would also possibly be a veteran of the war or someone who was in some way affected by the Sith/Jedi conflict.

 

Revan was specific in the sort of person he wanted but didn't specifically call out anyone in specific, so the person that shows up is our PC. Of course, playing the PC we will have no idea (until later when Revan spills the beans) about the reason why we ended up on the outer rim, but nonetheless we went there and landed on some planet and by seeming happenstance we ran into a mysterious stranger (Revan).. or possibly two mysterious strangers (The Exile too?) who either join the crew as playables or at least as passenger NPCs. Of course Revan knows that whoever picked him up must be force sensitive and perhaps in a moment of foresight ala Kreia he also knows that the person who rescues him from the outer rim is important to his destiny and must be trained in the force.

 

The reason for visiting other worlds would be that Revan has unfinished business and preparations that need doing in order to prepare for the storm unleashed in the outer rim with the "True Sith" prescence perhaps pursuing Revan. A good reason why Revan would be more of a background character at this point would be that he has to hide his prescence for as long as possible to protect the Republic before the True Sith show up. That is also why he originally needs the PC character and crew - while Revan stays in the shadows he is also directing the work that needs to be done while also training your character. Its Kreiaesque in a sense but for a different purpose. Also lets not forget that Revan was trained by Kreia, so some of her ways would undoubtedly be adopted.

 

Later on in story, Revan would come out of hiding and both of his "apprentices" (The Exile, who originally was a Jedi under Revan in the Mandalorian War) and the new PC would either destroy the True Sith (or at least send them running), or they would embrace the True Sith as a means of crushing and ruling the Republic.

[TallJimbo]

It's been said, quite accurately, that the KOTOR series is quintessentially Revan's story - while the Exile is important in TSL, by the end we get the impression it's Revan that really matters. It's worth keeping in mind though, that the Revan that it's about isn't the Revan we played in KOTOR 1 - that was a temporary Revan, finding him/herself. The stuff Revan did that mattered, by the end of TSL (not surprisingly, considering the Obsidian folks couldn't write two COMPLETELY different storylines), was the stuff he did while we weren't playing him/her - during the Mandalorian Wars, shortly afterward, and later, after he/she left again for the outer rim.

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while it's definitely Revan's story, we've always seen it from another perspective - even when we were Revan ourselves. That's what made some of it so powerful - he was our character, but there was enough out of our control for the developers to write a real story we could react to, not just a cardboard choose-your-own adventure. To a certain extent, while I got attached to the Revan I played in KOTOR 1, and wanted to continue with that character when I finished, by the end of TSL I realized that (at least for me), Revan's real story - and the story of the series - was the story I hadn't participated in . And, of course, having just finished TSL, I'm quite attached to the Exile, who makes a nice perspective to view Revan's story from - but if the developers of KOTOR 3 can't make that work from a gameplay standpoint, I think I can trust them to do a good job with a new protagonist. After KOTOR 1, I would have thought having anyone but Revan as protagonist would be "bad storytelling". Now, though I know I'd like to play as the Exile again, I'll wait until I actually see their storytelling before I judge it. No offense intended to those who are making that judgment - maybe I'm just more optimistic - but I wouldn't give up hope on the game if it's got a new protagonist, especially if it's developed by a company like Obsidian or Bioware.

[Saint]

Exactly right - the real story takes place between games - in K1 we were establishing the character of Revan after his memory wipe. In K2 we established the character of The Exile after his break from the force and in K3 it makes sense that we will establish a third character who is important to the storyline and (hopefully) will see a conclusion as the three characters come together.

[Darth Credulous]

What will you do? Select the appearances of Your Revan and/or Your Exile at the beginning of the game, along with their force alignments? Seems unwieldy.

[Laozi]

What will you do? Select the appearances of Your Revan and/or Your Exile at the beginning of the game, along with their force alignments? Seems unwieldy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Right

[Saint]

*shrug* who knows.. could possibly generate a random or maybe they'll pull a Kreia and not really show us their faces Could be it pulls data from K1 and K2 saved games as well.. who knows?

 

Either way I'm sure they'd figure a way around the problem. Maybe near the beginning someone will question you about Revan and show you holograms or something and whatever you select is what ends up being correct.

 

In fact that would make perfect sense given the scenario I posted -- Sith forces are pursuing Revan and suspect you to be involved with him, so they capture and during some kind of interrogation you are forced to identify his appearance, etc.

[Muad'Dib]

Well all in all I'd much rather see the Revan/Exile stories concluded from a first hand approach instead of a lousy third party perspective. And having just some new guy is pretty much as unoriginal as just bringing back Revan or Exile, there's nothing innovative about it at all.

 

I mean Revan was just a new guy, same as the Exile, a third new guy would hardly impress me. I'm pretty certain they'll have a new guy in K3, and frankly it sucks.

 

K3 wouldn't have to be 5 years or even 1 year after TSL it can be any time. As far as Revan and Exile in the Unknown Regions amm, you do realize they can come back right? I sincerely doubt the True Sith are going to be a threat just hanging around the unknown regions of space, if anything they'd be attacking the worlds of the Outer Rim and Core thus prompting Revan and Exile to return.

 

Not really interested in playing a Han Solo-like character, Atton fills that role pretty good. As much as I'm certain I won't be able to play as my old protagonists again it is as much as I'm certain it is precisely them who I'd need to play again in order for the K3 story to work properlly.

 

I know you want a new guy Saint, and I know you'll get him, but I completely disagree with your posture, sorry. I'd much rather explore how my old characters are growing, how they are changing, how that affects those that travelled with them and what their ultimate destiny is in the future and actually playing it out. Than just having some new yahoo come in and have to be explained everything from the beginning yet again, begin Jedi training yet again, going off to search for guy 1 and 2 yet again, and doing their job for them yet again. It is Revan's story that drew me into the game in the first place, Exile's story was well enough done but K2 convinces me more than anything that Revan is the key figure in the overall arc, since K2 used Exile I believe he/she deserves to have closure but more than him/her Revan is the one that needs to close this story, Revan is the Luke of the OT or the Anakin of the PT.

 

My two cents.

[Saint]

I'll admit there is definately call to continue playing out the story as Revan, and if the series was completely focused on the Revan character there would definately be a good game there. I think though that as RPGs the gameplay aspect just wouldn't work. I would love to see a whole series devoted to Revan, but I'm thinking for it to work on a basic gamplay level it would have to be more of a Jedi Knight style thing that doesn't necessarily involved leveling up, etc. Because let's face it - playing a RPG with a character who is already maxed out would be lame. The story allowed for this to happen with Revan once already (i.e. memory wipe, etc), but to play the role of Revan again, given the style of KOTOR would require him starting out fresh for a second time, which is also lame.

 

I could see a game designed somehow to incorporate what Revan would already know in the ways of feats, powers, etc.. but the problem is, we've put all this work into leveling Revan up the first time - you'd have to start K3 at level 20 with all of your feats, etc intact, and then where do you go from there? Have it start at level 20 and end at level 100.. by the end of that game you would have so many feats and force powers that you'd never be able to enjoy them all. Another gameplay (and story) problem with this is that Revan ended K1 as the most powerful Sith Lord / Jedi around at the time. He was already able to kill pretty much anyone or anything that he came against when he was level 20. If you start off at level 20 with Revan, how is there going to be any challenge for him? Unless all of the middling Sith troopers, gangsters, battle droids, monsters, dark jedi, sith, etc all suddenly became as powerful (or close) to Revan at the end of K1, there would be no reason for him to level up or become more powerful - he's already the king! By the time you reached the end of the game every enemy you meet (even the easy ones that you would kill at the begining of the game after gaining a few levels) would be on the same level AT THE VERY LEAST as K1 Revan. Either that or the game would consist of Revan entering a room and killing everyone in it with a dirty look.

 

I just think the idea of starting a brand new game in RPG fashion with one of the existing Protagonists would create more gameplay problems than the story could cure.

[FreddaH]

Thought I would add my two cents to this intriguing discussion.

 

I love open endings, like the one in KotOR II, where you basically have to fill in the gaps using your own immagination. Drawing upon this, KotOR III could finish the story of both Revan and the Exile using a third PC character, intertwining him with the destinies of Revan and the Exile.

 

The issue of being a Force-user can be easily solved in any number of ways. For example, it is never set in stone that the Exile IS the last Jedi in the galaxy. It is only stated that the Sith believes him to be the last. As I see it, the Star Wars saga has always been one of balance. Good cannot exist without evil, and vice versa. Therefore there are bound to be more Jedi out there, in hiding like the story of the Lost Jedi. KotOR III could be the story of accepting that the balance of Light and Darkness must exist. This story could (would) also tie in with Revan and the Exile as their actions (good or evil) threaten the balance. The third character's quest would thus be to restore this balance.

 

Playing as Revan or the Exile would - as already stated - present extreme gameplay issues in the D20 system, as there wouldn't be any real challenges for these characters. There is also the continuity issue, where the two first games introduces new characters while the third one goes back to one of the previous two, uppsetting the balance, and tipping the story in favour of one of the two, making the other's story insignificant. Balance is once again the major issue.

 

There are limitless ways to finish these stories, creating a great storyline for a third game. There is even the possibility of setting the third game at a much later time, where Revan's and the Exile's stories are more part of the lore and lost histories. I don't see the absolute need for a first hand conclusion of their stories, as the point of the games (again IMO) is to unravel a fascinating story during actual gameplay.

 

I really hope for a third installment as I thouroughly enjoyed the first two games. Bioware's writers did an excellent job, as did Obsidian's (even though in the latter case the technical quality of the released product was sadly brought down by major bugs). These games are all story, and like interactive movies. This is the way computer games where ment to be made.

 

 

/Fredrik

[Muad'Dib]

I understand your pov Saint and FreddaH believe me, I get the d20 levelling issues. I realize the difficulty of attempting to reuse the same protagonist, I realize that you kind of roll the eyes and shake our head if you hear that Revan suddenly was balsted back to level 1 becauso of this or that. I know and I sympathize.

 

But I rather go through that and continue the voyage as was begun than have to start over yet again with some new person I don't care for, a character that has nothing with the previous two games. I don't want another intertwining new character, that's exactly what they did in K2.

 

Because of the levelling progessive nature of RPGs I believe they should attempt one of two things:

1) Be self contained stories where the story ends promptly at the end of the game.

2) Not progress the character so much that renders that PC unuseable if the game is left open ended.

 

FreddaH on your comment about story balance, at least for me as I've played K2 it has become increasingly clearer that Revan is the key figure of this timeline, I don't mind at all for this particular character to substitute Exile as protagonist should one be chosen over the other. And the other way around that as suggested is making a dual campaign, in other words have both protagonists have an adventure in K3, thus sealing the gap between the two games. Both campaigns are interconnected and meet together in resolution at the end. Before you start talking about how long it would take I know that already, I'm just saying that's how it could be done for it to work, not how long such a game would take to develop or any details of that nature.

 

Like I said, some people wish for a new character and see K3 finalize the previous games' stories, some people want a new character and brand new story unrelated to either one of the previous games and some people want to see one or both of the original protagonists return. I know the third game can work perfectly with a new PC, all I'm saying is that's what I don't want to see personally.

 

I don't base what I want looking at gameplay (To me gameplay is of secondary importance over the story), I base it on my interest specifically in the story, what K1 delivered, what K2 delivered and what both of those have left as a possible lead up for K3. In the same way I would not want to see a new character take up for Luke in ESB and then a third replace the second in RotJ, I would want to see the story finished from the perspective of Revan and Exile before moving on to a third character and a new story.

 

I hope you guys can uderstand why I'm saying what I'm saying, as I get why you guys have the positions you do. Anyway when and if there's a K3 all of thiese discussions will be rather pointless wouldn't you say?

[ChaosRose_x]

All comments have proven to be very intersting. To each their own, you know. Some of your pro-new PC users have said that it would be easy to come up with a way to find a Force sensitive individual to take on the challenges and adventures in KIII (should it ever go into further development). But, I have to disagree.

 

The Jedi from TSL went into hiding (and no, Exile is NOT the last remaining Jedi) for fear of the threat pressed upon them from Nihilius. Kreia I believe noted at the fact that Nihilius was very powerful and part of that power was also evident in the True Sith of the galaxy. The Jedi Masters hid because they did not understand the concept or the depth of Nihilius's power. If even the Jedi Masters would refuse to reveal themselves, why would a rookie apprentice/padawan take on the challenge even the wiser more powerful members would not? Revan and the Exile I believe have a better grasp of what they're dealing with. The Jedi Masters did not, so I doubt an apprentice would, either.

 

Revan (I think) had an understanding of the True Sith as s/he dug deeper into the Sith teachings and lore (and from Malachor V). And Exile learns of their existence through Kreia (and also, I believe through Malachor). Where would the new PC learn of the True Sith threat?

 

Also, to have a new PC would be rather unimaginative and boring. Although do not mistake me, having Exile and Revan would also be boring (to an extent). Because you're stuck with characters that you already know and the whole charade. But what I want to know is what makes having Revan and Exile as your PC so uninteresting? The fact that you may have to level them up again after working so many hours in on leveling them up to lvl 20? Or the fact that you cannot righfully claim them as 'yours' because they are custom characters? (given 'titles', etc.) Well, as you claim is the theme in the KOTOR games, you would still have to start out anew again with yet *another* character with perhaps yet *another* title. So, the character can never rightfully be yours because they will be given titles, despite what names you choose to give them. Some feedback on these questions would be cool.

 

@ Saint: Thanks for your interesting opinions and ideas. I must say, they have been well thought out and are very intriguing. But when you say Revan was the most powerful of the Sith, I have to say I disagree. Revan was the most powerful of the Sith in the known galaxy. Beyond the Outer Rim - it's anyone's guess as to who or what lurks out there. Revan was as many have said, a tactician. Just because s/he went out to fight the Sith alone does not mean s/he believed him/herself to be the most powerful of the Jedi. I think it was because Revan had done much research in regards to the True Sith, and thought (naturally, as a tactician) that s/he could use their knowledge agianst them. The reason Revan wanted to keep the Republic strong was because I believe Revan had a sense of doubt that s/he would be able to defeat the Sith crawling in the outskirts of the galaxy. At the near end of the second game, Carth notes his concern for Revan's success as well. I think Revan could've very easily had his/her power stripped from him/her during his/her ventures - taking into note Nihilius's 'hunger' power ties with the ancient Sith (or True Sith).

 

@ FreddaH: Thank you for your contribution, and it is always welcomed. A good discussion always proves for a good challenge. I also enjoyed the first two installments of KOTOR and find the open ending in KII to be both frustrating, and compelling. Compelling in the sense that Exile may yet be seen again in the third. I found it odd that none of the pro-new PC users here haven't pointed out how frustrating how open-ended the ending is for the second game. I mean, if Exile's story is not really given closure, wouldn't it be more difficult to implement a third PC into the mix? Why would the devs add another PC in the plot when one's adventure was never really finished and another's was again to be told? That would prove to make matters - complicated. You also stated that there would be a problem with a continuity issue. Was that in regards to the d20 system? If so, then I doubt continuity would be a problem. The Devs have been quite...imaginative for characters to become non-Force attuned before, I bet they would come up with a suitable backdrop story. Continuity I believe would be a problem if there was a new PC - thinking of *how* they could be integrated into the plot with Force sensitive abilities and how they could face the True Sith with such little practice of the Jedi ways and no understanding of the threat whatsoever. Also, as in the last two games, the PC had to be trained in the arts of the Jedi by a Master. Who would train the new PC? I don't believe Revan is a suitable character because it would be pretty damn lucky if the new PC ever crossed paths with Revan (not being in tune with the Force), and considering none of the other Jedi know where s/he has ventured to. Even so, I doubt Revan would take the time to train a PC, considering s/he would not take Bastila along, (who was all mighty with her Battle Meditation) is saying something. Revan needs someone who already understands the threat of these Sith. Not someone who hasn't a clue that they even exist and no training in the Order in any manor. Exile I think is that someone Revan needs. Because like Nihilius, the Exile has this 'hunger' ability and has a somewhat feeble grasp of the True Sith's power from experience at Malachor V (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Kriea said something about a taste of the True Sith's power dwelling there).

 

I also find it difficult for a third person to decipher the actions of the Exile (LS or DS) - since the Exile is not a renown hero (or villain) such as Revan was and would not easily be discussed among commoners. And I don't think the devs would push the story off another five years or ten years - making Revan and Exile's journies something of folklore. But that would make an interesting story for another KOTOR

 

I think that a first hand approach to concluding Revan's story would be more appropriate though. I found it interesting to see that second hand approach (through half of the game) in the first KOTOR, and that same view in the second game. But, in the first game, Revan actually got to 'relive' some of those events that s/he made during the reign as the Dark lord. But only briefly after the 'revelation' did Revan began to relive those events that s/he had taken a while ago. I think the same thing could be involved with KIII - if the devs so choose it. Revan was hinted at beginning to remeber things that s/he had done. So, in a sense, you would still be looking at Revan's story from a third perspective if you were to play as Revan - because your PC would not be able to recall everything that s/he had done in previous years. And as you travel along your journey, you begin to remeber what your PC did, little by little. (The devs made certain that Carth make note of this - Revan remembering things that s/he had done in the second game)

 

@ Darth Credulous: Good point. It may prove hard to involve all of your previous PC's characteristics into the game. But the faces/portraits are already set up and unless the devs add a disguise to Revan (unique for each portrait), then I don't think the process will be too arduous. The alignment thing worked pretty well for the second game (most of the time - except in relation to female Revan...they couldn't seem to remember if Revan was a she or a he half of the time), so I doubt that would be much of a problem. Just think, a whole new set of portraits would take a while to develop if there were to be a new PC, and the alignment thing would still apply to the third PC if s/he was to go searching for Revan and the Exile - or whatever it is they would have planned for another PC if that was the case.

 

Been fun responding to your points - and must say it took some extra time to think of how to respond. Kudos to you guys

[TentamusDarkblade]

the problems with playing as Exile or Revan is as follows:

 

First there is the fact that they'd have to come up with some reason why your character who could make the universe tremble at his approach is suddenly a green behind the ears novice.

 

Second, Revan and Exile are both established characters. It may seem alright to have players re-play these characters, it's unfair to new players to the series to be forced to play them. In Kotor 1, you were Revan, but you had some ownership with the character because of the amnesia. In Kotor 2 you were the Exile and given free reign to go any direction with molding that character. The problem lies in the fact that once each of those games were done, the main character was a certain way.

 

Third, The exile and Revan both left the known galaxy. So we may be able to follow their story lines, but at the expense of the fate of the Jedi order and the republic. Those storylines, which i feel is the actual main arching story of the series, would be left behind.

 

Fourth, If you play Revan the Exile fans will be pissed, if you play as the Exile, he Revan fans will be pissed. If you play them both, then you lessen the experience as you spread game "self" too thin. With a third PC you piss off both fan bases, but you're able to equally tell each storyline well while maintaining the players sense of game "self" (the emotional investment in the creation and forwarding of a character persona). You also allow the game narrative to look at aspects of past conflicts with a fresh perspective and see them in a new whole.

 

Fifth, Each character comes with a certain level of character attachements. Revan has Bastila, Carth, Jolee, etc etc etc. The Exile has Handmaiden, Atton, Visas, Mandalore, etc etc etc. If you don't use the NPCs the main characters are attached to then you lessen those characters. If you do use them then you greatly limit the creative freedoms to explore new NPCs or fresh storylines.

 

just my thoughts...

[DravinClaw]

Ill make my point short and sweet since you guys have basicly said what makes a good game. but why do i get this sinking feeling that they will try and pull the old bait and switch and combine Revan/Exile into one charactor? K2 had all the goings of becomeing like ESB where everything goes bad but fell short on it with the ending. well its late and im tired ill check back tomorrow

[FreddaH]

The Jedi from TSL went into hiding (and no, Exile is NOT the last remaining Jedi) for fear of the threat pressed upon them from Nihilius. Kreia I believe noted at the fact that Nihilius was very powerful and part of that power was also evident in the True Sith of the galaxy. The Jedi Masters hid because they did not understand the concept or the depth of Nihilius's power. If even the Jedi Masters would refuse to reveal themselves, why would a rookie apprentice/padawan take on the challenge even the wiser more powerful members would not? Revan and the Exile I believe have a better grasp of what they're dealing with. The Jedi Masters did not, so I doubt an apprentice would, either.

 

One thing that I didn't cover in my last post is that IMO the story is not (and is not trying to be) finished. It is therefore entirely possible that another protagonist is needed in order to finish the overlaying story. This protagonist would have to be a major player, and thus, an apprentice or padawan is unlikely. I would rather hope for an approach like that in KotOR II where the character does not suffer from amnesia, but rather has a clouded past that is gradually revealed to the player. Only the creativity and immagination of the writers set the boundries.

 

Revan (I think) had an understanding of the True Sith as s/he dug deeper into the Sith teachings and lore (and from Malachor V). And Exile learns of their existence through Kreia (and also, I believe through Malachor). Where would the new PC learn of the True Sith threat?

 

The Star Wars universe is huge, and has been expanded time and again during the years since the first movies. Why is it necessary for the character to be restricted in displacement and knowledge of only the worlds of the Outer Rim or Core territories? The protagonist in the third game could theorretically origin from any place in the galaxy, even from within or close to the Sith Empire itself. Finding out about the new Sith threat could be done in any number of other ways as well. Perhaps the attack comes, and our new hero is forced to respond, and in doing so, encounters Revan and the Exile? Again, only creativity and immagination limit the options.

 

Also, to have a new PC would be rather unimaginative and boring. Although do not mistake me, having Exile and Revan would also be boring (to an extent). Because you're stuck with characters that you already know and the whole charade. But what I want to know is what makes having Revan and Exile as your PC so uninteresting? The fact that you may have to level them up again after working so many hours in on leveling them up to lvl 20? Or the fact that you cannot righfully claim them as 'yours' because they are custom characters? (given 'titles', etc.) Well, as you claim is the theme in the KOTOR games, you would still have to start out anew again with yet *another* character with perhaps yet *another* title. So, the character can never rightfully be yours because they will be given titles, despite what names you choose to give them. Some feedback on these questions would be cool.

 

Personally I don't have a problem with this. I loved Planescape: Tornment, where you basically where forced into a set personality right from the start. What matters above all is the story. Where our oppinions differ is that I don't see Revan as the center point of the story. To me, this is a story of primal evil and the desperate struggle of good. Of course, Revan is a key figure, as is the Exile. I just feel that there is room for yet one more pivotal figure in the overall story, and that conclusion and closure comes first when their three destenies come together. When I previously spoke of balance, I was really more reffering to symmetry. KotOR I featuring Revann, KotOR II, the Exile and KotOR III, the third (still unnamed) pivotal figure. I feel that this is very fitting, but maybe I'm just a sucker for symmetry

 

I found it odd that none of the pro-new PC users here haven't pointed out how frustrating how open-ended the ending is for the second game. I mean, if Exile's story is not really given closure, wouldn't it be more difficult to implement a third PC into the mix? Why would the devs add another PC in the plot when one's adventure was never really finished and another's was again to be told? That would prove to make matters - complicated.

 

I like that kind of complexity. I also LOVE the fact that you don't really get to see what happens to the Exile after KotOR II. It leaves you to fill in the blanks for yourself, or at least speculate on it until the third installment comes out. This would be my biggest incentive for bying the third game, and leaves me really wanting more. A good marketing trick, as well as good storytelling, IMO. Actually playing Revan or the Exile in the third game, rather than meeting them or hearing about them, would, for me, take away some of the magic created by the previous games. I love the fact that I was part of those character's stories, and if they, in the third game, are major players in an epic plot, it would really feel as I had done something special when I played the first two games.

 

You also stated that there would be a problem with a continuity issue. Was that in regards to the d20 system? If so, then I doubt continuity would be a problem. The Devs have been quite...imaginative for characters to become non-Force attuned before, I bet they would come up with a suitable backdrop story.

 

As I said earlier, this was not was I was talking about, and I have no doubt the Devs could come up with a compelling approach to this, should they decide that this is the way to go.

 

Continuity I believe would be a problem if there was a new PC - thinking of *how* they could be integrated into the plot with Force sensitive abilities and how they could face the True Sith with such little practice of the Jedi ways and no understanding of the threat whatsoever. Also, as in the last two games, the PC had to be trained in the arts of the Jedi by a Master. Who would train the new PC? I don't believe Revan is a suitable character because it would be pretty damn lucky if the new PC ever crossed paths with Revan (not being in tune with the Force), and considering none of the other Jedi know where s/he has ventured to. Even so, I doubt Revan would take the time to train a PC, considering s/he would not take Bastila along, (who was all mighty with her Battle Meditation) is saying something. Revan needs someone who already understands the threat of these Sith. Not someone who hasn't a clue that they even exist and no training in the Order in any manor. Exile I think is that someone Revan needs. Because like Nihilius, the Exile has this 'hunger' ability and has a somewhat feeble grasp of the True Sith's power from experience at Malachor V (correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Kriea said something about a taste of the True Sith's power dwelling there).

 

Again, it is all up to the immagination of the writers. Integration of a third character in a plot such as this is not too hard to do. I have already given examples of ways the character could be aware of the sith threat, and given that Revan's and the Exile's backgrounds are still sort of hazy (you don't actually get to see and hear everything that happened during the Mandalorian Wars or the Jedi Civil War), a new key character would not be hard to tie into the two already existing. I think KotOR II, in not spelling everything out for you, did an excellent job at hinting that there was more to the story than what we already knew.

 

I also find it difficult for a third person to decipher the actions of the Exile (LS or DS) - since the Exile is not a renown hero (or villain) such as Revan was and would not easily be discussed among commoners. And I don't think the devs would push the story off another five years or ten years - making Revan and Exile's journies something of folklore. But that would make an interesting story for another KOTOR original.gif

 

Another issue for the writers to deal with. If the new protagonist follows the examples I have given it would not be too hard to find a place in the story where both Revan's and the Exile's gender and alignment are discussed and determined.

 

Very nice discussion this, but it will prove quite moot when (if) the third game is release

 

 

/Fredrik

[ChaosRose_x]

Thanks for the insight Fred - and each is intitled to their own opinion. But all in all, there are still flaws (IMO) either way for either a new PC or using Revan and/or the Exile in this final installment <---(or is it? ) It's been interesting and fun to see the different stands on this. Thanks all for giving me something to wrack my mind on - since you know, the school I attend doesn't give me that kind of mental challenge.

 

But as two of you have said, all of this debating really doesn't affect how the third product will turn out We'll just have to wait, and see. Once again thanks for spicing up at least this past week - it was fun.

cheers!

[Matt_Cauthon1]

Here's two more cents in the bank fo Ideas,

 

Yes playing out Revan's or the Exile's story would be great, but that probably mioght not happen. My thought would be to get a new protagonist FROM the places Revan goes to. Mabey from those already fighting the True Sith. As you play Revan tells of the the Mandalorean Wars, thus introducing the Exile. As you fight on(or Retreat), Exile catches up to you.

Just my two cents offered in boredom of waiting.