Zach Morris Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I was playing some old nintendo games the other day and I realized something. Those games were hard! I played some games that I remember beating when I was little and I couldn't do it now. I needed some practice! It made me wonder. Those games were made back in a time when video games were still new. They weren't for the masses like they are now. Now making games costs so much money the developers try to make a game that will appeal to everyone. If they make the game too hard then no one would buy it. This is a sad thing for gamers who play for a good challenge. That is how I fell in love with computer games. I realized that as consoles were getting easier and easier, I could always count on my PC to fulfill that challenge that I wanted. So I guess I should be ready for the fact that TSL was basically made for the console. So I will play the game with an open mind and enjoy the game for the story and dialogue. Since games mostly are made for the masses now, I just have to be more selective about what I buy, and buy games that I know will have the challenge that I want. Props to developers like Team Ninja, for making games like Ninja Gaiden to keep the challenge flowing. Hopefully in the future there will be more of a line drawn between gaming for the masses and gaming for the gamer. But then I guess since there would be less of a market for gamers because ironically those games wouldn't sell as much. Am I wrong? Do you guys see any hope in the future for gamers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astatine Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 When I was at school I used to get really bored so I liked hard challenging games and would stick to them when they were frustrating. Also having parents who don't buy you games very often tends to make you get the most out of the ones you have! I remember playing Zarch for long enough to cause it to get confused and crash (might be because I reached Wave 65 and the author didn't expect anyone to get past Wave 64 or indeed Wave 16 since IIRC that's where the game's levels looped anyway ) These days though I have a job as a programmer so I spend all day doing hard stuff, so when I get home I want to unwind and frustrating games just frustrate me. So whilst I still like tough bits, the sort of game that doesn't offer much clue as to how to do it or just needs ages of reloading and/or practise nowadays I just give up on and play something else instead rather than sticking to it like I'd have done 10 years ago... I dunno, must be growing old... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I really cant see the pleasure in doing something 30 times in a row just to get it right, thats frustration for me, not challenge. And In a RPG it breaks the flow and story to constantly have to reload. I mean, we dont do it in PnP games do we? But this is something Ive wanted to ask you people who like challenging games- is it enough just to do a baldursgate, plansescape thing and just increase monster damage or do you require more to accomplish your need for difficulty? DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astatine Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Icewind Dale also increased the monster count on higher difficulty levels. That worked quite well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 If they make the game too hard then no one would buy it. I would. And In a RPG it breaks the flow and story to constantly have to reload. I mean, we dont do it in PnP games do we? No. In the PnP you just die and start over if you feel like it. Unless you play with wimpy GMs which would never, god forbid, kill you. This has been discussed before. What do you want, a video game or a freaking interactive movie? - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I for one would like a more difficult game. Not more powerful monsters, just better balanced PC and gear. Such as my mod does for KotOR 1. I made sure the damage done by various weapons mirror the PnP game. Now a blaster shot has a good chance of dropping a low level character, as it should. While high level characters will feel the sting of a Heavy blaster doing 20 points of damage, a critical would be 40. Of course that is for both sides of the gaming fence. The PC has a heavy blaster he could do such damage to his foes. I think that developers need to realize that the majority of their players are not idiots. Many mainstream developers, not just those on the CRPG front, have this idea that we are idiots. We are not and I find such easy games as an insult. I don't like to by insulting games. My suggestion to Obsidian is to break that trend with Neverwinter Nights 2. I want you to make the most difficult game you can. I want to see critters to tactics. I want to see traps and puzzles. I want to feel like my character's life is actually in peril. When I see a dragon I want to tremble in fear as a player. Its time to take the kid's gloves off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astatine Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I remember fighting Firkraag in BG2 was pretty damn nerve-wracking especially with circa 12th level characters... The dragons in NWN were wussy by comparison. Well, the ones in SoU and HotU I mean. I've never got to Klauth (is it Klauth?) in the OC. The furthest I've managed to get in the OC before getting bored and irritated is mid chapter 3... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Morris Posted January 25, 2005 Author Share Posted January 25, 2005 For an RPG I see your point that it would break the story to just reload over and over. Certain enemies all you really have to do is learn their pattern and then they are easy. I have been getting my challenge fix with multiplayer games lately. There is nothing like a human opponent. That is why in the future I will look forward to games that have a leap in the AI department. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 What do you want, a video game or a freaking interactive movie? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Heh, the latter actually. I love the concept of cinematic game storytelling ..but its a shame that they cant look to the needs of people like you who like old fashioned "died 79 times before defeating Boss nr.34"challenge, because it would be so easy to implement. Hades hinted that they should follow the PnP rules closer, I agree only if they make the number of violent encounters equal to it. You cant whack down a whole academy full of Sith with PnP rules. DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 What do you want, a video game or a freaking interactive movie? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Heh, the latter actually. I love the concept of cinematic game storytelling That clears it up. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. I like interactive movies from time to time, too. But what I don't like is to be sold one, while being told it actually requires some effort on my part. ..but its a shame that they cant look to the needs of people like you who like old fashioned "died 79 times before defeating Boss nr.34"challenge, because it would be so easy to implement. Well, that's what games are all about. Think about it. Each time you play poker, or chess or whatever game you like with new people, you don't really know who's going to win. That's the whole point of playing. I don't know about you, but once I begin to own my friends at a certain game, it loses its appeal, fast. Hades hinted that they should follow the PnP rules closer, I agree only if they make the number of violent encounters equal to it. You cant whack down a whole academy full of Sith with PnP rules. That's true. But CRPGs and PnP RPGs can't really have the same pacing. In the PnP, depending on the size of a battle, it can last from a few minutes to... real long. In CRPGs, the largest, hardest battles seldom last more than ten minutes. I don't want to have exactly the same pacing as in the PnP. However, having balanced rules and an actually competent AI which reacts just as any GM controlled NPC would, can make wonders about making the game both challenging and fun. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverwinterKnight Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 However, having balanced rules and an actually competent AI which reacts just as any GM controlled NPC would, can make wonders about making the game both challenging and fun. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> is that even possible in a cRPG though? i havent played a game that the ai were anywhere close to being "smart". the tougher games like bg or whatever werent so necessarily because the ai reacted competently, but moreso because of the damage they could do to you with one or two hits, or the amount they could withstand from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 Well, the Tony K AI for NWN does wonders in making the game more difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeverwinterKnight Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 is it a smarter ai or just a more difficult one (ie. more hp, more damage, etc.)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakron Posted January 25, 2005 Share Posted January 25, 2005 I remember fighting Firkraag in BG2 was pretty damn nerve-wracking especially with circa 12th level characters... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes but winnable, in fact I end up with a strategy that allow me to kill him in a few round without cheap tricks (A.K.A. traps) around that level with smart use of spells. I dont think its a question of battles being easy or hard but of playing smart and games today tend to just rely on swarm tactics and boss that downright cheat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Morris Posted January 26, 2005 Author Share Posted January 26, 2005 Some games I think are hampered by too much focus on the main character. The game has to make it so that that character never dies, and if he does then you just have to hit continue. I think it would be an interesting game where you are in charge of many characters and if someone dies, that someone isn't coming back. That would just add a thrill in battles that I think is missing. I tend to just mindlessly go after a boss, playing him the first time to learn weaknesses, then restart to beat him, instead I would be worried. I would have to go to town, I would have to talk to NPC's, I would have to go to the library in the town ahead of time to learn weaknesses before I even fought the boss. Then when I do beat it, the sense of accomplishment would be that much more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure79 Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 Some games I think are hampered by too much focus on the main character. The game has to make it so that that character never dies, and if he does then you just have to hit continue. I think it would be an interesting game where you are in charge of many characters and if someone dies, that someone isn't coming back. That would just add a thrill in battles that I think is missing. I tend to just mindlessly go after a boss, playing him the first time to learn weaknesses, then restart to beat him, instead I would be worried. I would have to go to town, I would have to talk to NPC's, I would have to go to the library in the town ahead of time to learn weaknesses before I even fought the boss. Then when I do beat it, the sense of accomplishment would be that much more. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> They did do this to some extent in the BG and IWD series, where you could toggle options to make death permanent. I think it was when a NPC's hit points went down to negative 10 or something, the corresponding portrait would dissapear on the death of the NPC. I usually played with this option, but I found myself going back to earlier save games and reloading anyways. The type of game you describe would most likely be an RPG,(Going to town, talking, finding clues, etc) and I suppose the deisgners would have to develop some new type of save feature or gameplay mechanic that would make permanent death a part of the game...without being too frustrating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaguars4ever Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 At last Chris has spoken. This comes froma recent TSL afterthoughts interview with EGM : EGM : Could you explain why some of the Force powers are so powerful? Even a little too powerful? Chris Avellone : [We] had to remove the level cap on some of the Force powers, because what we noticed is that when you allow the player to go above level 20, with the autobalancing, suddenly powers that were once very cool, if they had a ceiling, they weren't as effective at the high levels because there's only a certain amount of damage they could do. So what we decided to do is have the powers try to scale up to character level. However, at the end the amount of damage you'e dishing out is just insane. So yeah, the balancing there wasn't able to keep up with some of the Force powers. We decided if we were going to err on the side of too hard or too easy, it'd be more tolerable to err on the side of ease. Mike Gallo : Yeah, and when you're that high a level, we really want the player to feel like they're badass, especially if they're dark side. We wanted them to be able to go wipe out rooms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaftan Barlast Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 I think the optimum(normal) difficulty is so that you can, just barely, survive all encounters the first time playing- thereby assuring a sense of accomplishment without breaking game flow or tempo But as for my own preference with CRPG gaming, I get the most satisfaction out of advancing the story using my own intelligence and deduction. Not in the way of puzzles(since they're usually just thrown in to hinder the player and keep him busy for a while) but for finding clues, talking to people, finding out things. Sort of how I enjoy an episode of "midsummer murders" or "detective frost" much more than watching an action flick. DISCLAIMER: Do not take what I write seriously unless it is clearly and in no uncertain terms, declared by me to be meant in a serious and non-humoristic manner. If there is no clear indication, asume the post is written in jest. This notification is meant very seriously and its purpouse is to avoid misunderstandings and the consequences thereof. Furthermore; I can not be held accountable for anything I write on these forums since the idea of taking serious responsability for my unserious actions, is an oxymoron in itself. Important: as the following sentence contains many naughty words I warn you not to read it under any circumstances; botty, knickers, wee, erogenous zone, psychiatrist, clitoris, stockings, bosom, poetry reading, dentist, fellatio and the department of agriculture. "I suppose outright stupidity and complete lack of taste could also be considered points of view. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
213374U Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 At last Chris has spoken. This comes froma recent TSL afterthoughts interview with EGM : EGM : Could you explain why some of the Force powers are so powerful? Even a little too powerful? Chris Avellone : [We] had to remove the level cap on some of the Force powers, because what we noticed is that when you allow the player to go above level 20, with the autobalancing, suddenly powers that were once very cool, if they had a ceiling, they weren't as effective at the high levels because there's only a certain amount of damage they could do. So what we decided to do is have the powers try to scale up to character level. However, at the end the amount of damage you'e dishing out is just insane. So yeah, the balancing there wasn't able to keep up with some of the Force powers. We decided if we were going to err on the side of too hard or too easy, it'd be more tolerable to err on the side of ease. Mike Gallo : Yeah, and when you're that high a level, we really want the player to feel like they're badass, especially if they're dark side. We wanted them to be able to go wipe out rooms. Well, that sums it up. Their aim was to kill the whole point of playing. It seems there is no difference between watching somebody beat the game and beat it yourself. Sad, this. - When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judge Hades Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 That is just sickening. I though Chris A. was better than that. I am sorely disappointed. If they have the same mentality going into NWN 2 I am thinking what is even the point of playing the game? Hey, lets kill everyone on the whole planet with a single spell or single swipe of the sword. Yes, players would love that. *barf* I guess that will be another thing I need to modify, if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakron Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 I blame Mike Gallo for that, its clear he have no idea what a RPG is. Then again OE did gone along with such ideas ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Morris Posted January 26, 2005 Author Share Posted January 26, 2005 Looks like I am going to have to do a very hard thing my first time through. I will have to keep my character at level 20. I will have to stop the urges of clicking that lovely L on the portrait. It will be hard but I think I can do it. It doesn't help that everytime you walk into a new room that level up sound goes off. I'm like Pavlov's dogs and drool everytime I hear that noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanC9 Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 is it a smarter ai or just a more difficult one (ie. more hp, more damage, etc.)? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The Tony K AI (originated by Pausanias, spellcasting AI by Jugalator) is all about more intelligence. There is an option that lets creatures get healing potions the builder didn't give them, but it's optional. On Firkraag -- he's a lot less tough than the Shadow Dragon, IMO. Fire resistance is easy to get, and then it's just a matter of the usual anti-fear spells and so forth to turn things into a straight up melee fight that he can't win. You can use Negative Plane Protection against the Shadow Dragon, but that's got such a short duration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astatine Posted January 26, 2005 Share Posted January 26, 2005 I always found Firkraag tougher. The Shadow Dragon's breath only affected one character, for starters. Different playing styles I guess Back on topic: I'm going to go out on a limb and say that given the way the KOTOR series works, it sounds like Chris (as quoted) made the right call. But I won't really get to judge it until I get the game, of course... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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