Why is duel wielding made superior in KotOR II?

[Darth Frog]

I think VotF (a.k.a. Saberist) has made some good points about how a nice game ought to be if you look at it as a combat/martial arts simulation. However, d20 is no such beast and much less our favourite hack&slash lite which is based on a thoroughly watered-down version of d20. And given the math as it is and the game as it is the 'epic' versions of weapon specialization and the dual-wielding feats are utterly superfluous feat sinks.

 

For example, around level 30 your enemies have defense 40 or less (except for two bosses), meaning you need an attack modifier of 38 in order to score any hit that can be scored. Roll 1 is automatic miss, and your attack roll must match or exceed enemy defense in order to score a hit, so in order to hit on roll 2 or higher you need an attack bonus of 40 - 2 = 38.

 

Now, any level 30 character - even Consular/Jedi Master - already has a BAB of 30. Add to that the plentiful free items/upgrades that give you attack boni as a side-effect (!) and you end up with an attack modifier in the 50s/60s, meaning that the surplus attack bonus is already higher than the penalty for dual-wielding without having even the basic feat (-6/-10). With the third of the basic feats the remaining penalty is -2/-2 for the unbalanced case, which is completely negligible.

 

The situation is less dramatic at level 15 which is the earliest time where it is possible to acquire the feats, but around that time melee-oriented characters won't have any use for those feats either (assuming semi-decent equipment that anybody can get/craft).

 

A similar dichotomy exists in, e.g., the question of double-bladed lightsabres (sabre staffs). They may be a stupid idea if you extrapolate the natural laws of our reality/universe but in the KotOR games the 'natural law' is d20 combined with whatever properties the designers assigned to game items. And from this point of view - the game as it is - the double-bladed sabres would beat single sabres hands-down if it were not for their halved critical threat range (20-20 vs. 19-20): higher base damage, one rare crystal gives benefits for both main hand and off hand, 1.5 multiplier for the STR damage bonus. Around level 30 this translates to +10 damage per main hand attack for a STR-based character, for a guaranteed 50 extra damage per combat round.

 

Double-bladed sabre + Master Speed + Flurry + Juyo will serve you well in any situation and give fairly dependable results; approaches relying on critical hits yield 3...10% more average damage and much higher peak (and also much lower lows), but actual results tend to fluctuate rather wildly and thus the number of combat rounds needed to defeat non-grunt enemies. Note: the 10% figure is for STR builds; for weak characters the advantage from using Master Power Attack with keen 'non-double' sabres can be higher because for them the +12 damage bonus from Master Power Attack makes more of a difference.

 

I prefer the double-bladed sabre with Flurry, because it is enough to cut down Sion in a single combat round reliably, so there is nothing to be gained from using a combo that cannot give any better results but that has higher probability of failure.

[AlanC9]

Of all the faults in the KOTOR swordplay system (and there are MANY, ranging from body size to inability to use open hand and 'dirty trick' fighting methods to Force Enhanced motions) perhaps the most telling is that there is no 'system of systems' by which the PLAYER can show his real skill, irrespective of 'feats'.

 

Not a flaw. RPGs are about high-level command, not player skill. Deal with it or don't play them.

 

As for dual-wielding... if it was better than single-wielding, why did Anakin give up the style?

 

Of course, the real answer is that Lucas hadn't invented dual-wielding when he shot the original trilogy. :D

[Darth Flatus]

Dual wield is better but only if one is higly trained in that art. A novice using a weapon in each hand would probably slice himself up.

[Montegue]

Yes but in KOTOR you could cause much more damage if you used 2 lightsabers.

 

I was hoping that single bladed would be more powerful this time around.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How? A single blade will always be less powerful than 2 blades. Half as powerful in some cases. SImple math. Sheesh.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Bleh. Not at all. One mind, one weapon. I regularly beat people who face me with two weapons fighting with a single one. (been doing western martial arts for some time now). It's all about timing, distance, place...

 

Saberist - you have a couple of misconceptions about itallian and spanish rapier. Can I ask where you got your info from?

[Saberist]

Darth Frog,

 

>>

I think VotF (a.k.a. Saberist) has made some good points about how a nice game ought to be if you look at it as a combat/martial arts simulation. However, d20 is no such beast and much less our favourite hack&slash lite which is based on a thoroughly watered-down version of d20. And given the math as it is and the game as it is the 'epic' versions of weapon specialization and the dual-wielding feats are utterly superfluous feat sinks.

>>

 

Hey, thanks for the kudos! )

 

From my perspective, 'knowing a little about D20', 90+% of what you wrote below is indecipherable without a calculator to hand while I _know_ if I could 'redesign KOTOR' to open it up to a wider audience; (always a good thing, commercially) I could invent a 'self teaching' system of tutorial which would be **visually comprehensible** to everyone.

 

It two uses numbers. My strokes vs. Your strokes. But it /modifies/ them based on a vitruvian man concept (Michaelangelo's 'spread eagle guy') of 'designer cuts' using the-

 

QWE

ASD

ZXC

 

system of up/down, left/right + diagonals to 'soak up' a given number of cuts per melee round.

 

Add to this a level-up form system by which you 'walk up and down the mats' with a Master REALLY TEACHING YOU (no cutoff movie scenes) a new 'kata' which you must follow based on a Simon-like (the electronic game) pattern mimicry basis (theoretically giving more quick eye'd players additional cuts per level up), you end up with an _integrated attack defense_ SYSTEM.

 

Because when you see the 'green Sith' pop out of the woodwork (using JKO/JKA analogies) you KNOW, from his stance and blade angle what kind of a form he is fighting with. And so you can _select_ 1-thru-0 as an attack pattern which BEATS that system. In X or fewer moves.

 

Ahah!! Now we have tactical game play!

 

Because while maybe you have 8 cuts this melee round and maybe he has only 5, such that the Computer AI would beat him anyway. By selecting Kata #7, you can instead beat him in 4 cuts because _Your Master Says That's How It's Supposed To Work_.

 

Which is important because bad guys always attack in groups. And so your 'first order of business' is to mouse click 'freeze time' (and activate a high-remote camera angle) as you swivel about and SELECT your first target, using the other mouse button to restart time.

 

If you do this, properly, then every time you MOVE (translate, at Force enhanced speed) towards A, you BLOCK OFF or 'outrun' BCDE & F.

 

Which means that you are not in a KOTOR like situation wherein you are literally surrounded at about 4ft distances, 'swinging away' against staff wielding thugs. And 'because the numbers say so', nobody hits you. Which is _utterly_ impossible, mathematically or otherwise. Yet common in the Trayus Academy especially.

 

The Big Differences Between D20 and My System:

 

Mine is not about technology. Swords are just big sticks. THE MAN who wields them is 'the weapon'.

Mine USES numbers, yet is not used /by them/, to justify the impossible.

Mine is simplistic in use AND understanding.

Mine includes further modifiers-

Facing: arms reach 2 feet, laterally, arms reach 3. This also effects the way certain forms end, with you 'stepping out' to cut as your opponent moves linearly by you.

Spacing: Do you fight in the outer/mid/inner wards, basically first third, middle third or base of blade to effect _strength_ modifiers? Luke was a fool to cross into the mid/inner wards with Vader. He was too short for that crap. At the same time, the outer, 'speed based' ward, while quick and powerful, soaks up constitution (wider cuts have more power but cover MUCH wider blade arcs and so are very tiring).

Pacing: Do you 'flurry up' and expend all your cuts in say a HALF or QUARTER melee round, beating your opponent on sheer FURY of assault, while losing out by having nothing left if you fail? If you do, there is still the 'engage/disengage' key which Force-gymnastics you away from being dogpiled. Or directly impaled.

So that an 'advanced' player can further adjust his style (and indeed, some of the katas would likely employ these as 'cut soaks' once you get up to about 10-12 cuts per MR and geometry of the battle becomes more entertaining than simply speed of saber movement.)

Mine assumes minimal if not NON EXISTENT Cortosis 'magic teflon' /crap/. So that the saber kills or incapacitates with almost any touch. So that the grace of slaying multiple opponents comes NOT on the basis of hack'n'whack batting practice. But on the notion of killing with a single blur of movement. 90+% of the average street-punks.

 

i.e. Unlike Bioware and Obsidian (and Raven and Lucasarts) MY SYSTEM INVOLVES THE PLAYER. Yet doesn't overwhelm him with goodie-based modifiers that leave him 'watching a movie'.

 

>>

For example, around level 30 your enemies have defense 40 or less (except for two bosses), meaning you need an attack modifier of 38 in order to score any hit that can be scored. Roll 1 is automatic miss, and your attack roll must match or exceed enemy defense in order to score a hit, so in order to hit on roll 2 or higher you need an attack bonus of 40 - 2 = 38.

 

Now, any level 30 character - even Consular/Jedi Master - already has a BAB of 30. Add to that the plentiful free items/upgrades that give you attack boni as a side-effect (!) and you end up with an attack modifier in the 50s/60s, meaning that the surplus attack bonus is already higher than the penalty for dual-wielding without having even the basic feat (-6/-10). With the third of the basic feats the remaining penalty is -2/-2 for the unbalanced case, which is completely negligible.

>>

 

Learning a sword form should be independent of class.

 

One form might be linear 'power' based (shortest route between two points is NOT a circle).

One form might be conservatively 'circle' based (Distreza or the Great Wheel is probably the most sophisticated 'mathematical' system of fencing on the planet)

One form might be pankration 'whole body' based. Like _Gladiator_ where even your arms and feet are designed to /break/ your enemies defenses.

One form might be Force Magic associated as the ONLY means by which a Jedi could execute non-physical attacks while fighting.

 

NONE of which would necessarily reflect a 'class' (Guardian/Sentinel/Consular goes to what 'role' you play in everyday life as a bodyguard or A-Team type training advisor. An active investigator/intel operative. Or a high level negotiator and lie-detecting 'mediator' at both commercial and political games).

 

The difference is that if I have a 5 foot nothing woman facing off against a 6'4" male, she had darn well better NOT go 'toe to toe' with him. BUT if she can use ALL her (lighter, quicker, whip-supple) body OR if she can use MAGIC as a 'standing' additional defense (without concentration or melee round interruption) so that "No blaster bolt will ever touch me, even though I have no strokes to spare as I fight with the best Saberist in the galaxy". Or alternately, "No Saberist will ever come into my inner ward (Close Spacing) because my Force Teek keeps him 'at bay', physically..."

 

Now you have a _battle master_ 'woman' who is ten times what a _by build and sex_ you would expect the linebacker male to be 'better at'.

 

This association of blade style and Force Gift with 'what you do at work' is tenuous at best.

 

>>

The situation is less dramatic at level 15 which is the earliest time where it is possible to acquire the feats, but around that time melee-oriented characters won't have any use for those feats either (assuming semi-decent equipment that anybody can get/craft).

 

A similar dichotomy exists in, e.g., the question of double-bladed lightsabres (sabre staffs). They may be a stupid idea if you extrapolate the natural laws of our reality/universe but in the KotOR games the 'natural law' is d20 combined with whatever properties the designers assigned to game items. And from this point of view - the game as it is - the double-bladed sabres would beat single sabres hands-down if it were not for their halved critical threat range (20-20 vs. 19-20): higher base damage, one rare crystal gives benefits for both main hand and off hand, 1.5 multiplier for the STR damage bonus. Around level 30 this translates to +10 damage per main hand attack for a STR-based character, for a guaranteed 50 extra damage per combat round.

>>

 

Sigh. Grab a broomstick. Remembering that you can ONLY hold it in the middle third. And try to strike someone standing _directly ahead of you_, more than 2ft away. Without moving your feet.

 

THAT, SIR, is the basic /nonsense/ inherent to a light staff: a 30-45` blade angle that amounts to less than 2ft of reach.

 

You can twirl it by twirling your body or playing cheerleader baton artist. But you cannot 'live hand it' because you can never return the pommel to the base of ribs or bellybutton level which 'sets' the leveraged grip (i.e. it is incredibly simple to disarm).

 

And more importantly, you cannot beat the speed of an enemy that WILL strike your center (hand hold) position with simpler (lighter weight, faster twitch) movements of his hands and arms as you rely on _yielding_ the centered balance of CG-over-feet that is a swordsman's best ally in defense. To move that damn energy blade across your center.

 

Light Staffs are THE DUMBEST weapon Lucas ever invented. Period. Dot.

 

>>

Double-bladed sabre + Master Speed + Flurry + Juyo will serve you well in any situation and give fairly dependable results; approaches relying on critical hits yield 3...10% more average damage and much higher peak (and also much lower lows), but actual results tend to fluctuate rather wildly and thus the number of combat rounds needed to defeat non-grunt enemies. Note: the 10% figure is for STR builds; for weak characters the advantage from using Master Power Attack with keen 'non-double' sabres can be higher because for them the +12 damage bonus from Master Power Attack makes more of a difference.

 

I prefer the double-bladed sabre with Flurry, because it is enough to cut down Sion in a single combat round reliably, so there is nothing to be gained from using a combo that cannot give any better results but that has higher probability of failure.

>>

 

Snort. Oh Boyee, _that's fun_! My machine killed him! ;-)

 

Not me.

 

Note that you also USE this as an excuse to bypass the obvious which is that _weak opponents attack in numbers_ (Hyenas vs. Lion, Dogs vs. Cougar, Pigs vs. Tiger) to distract and defeat their enemies on sheer overwhelming numbers. WHY would 'only the last' opponent be worth fighting (as a function of enduring game boredom) after wading through several hundred of his cannon-fodder lesser followers like they weren't even there 'from level 15 on'?

 

Not to mention the sheer save-die-reload frustration and embarrassment of /pre/ Level-15 survival by reincarnation.

 

No. These people should be the means by which you teach yourself the skills, detached ferocity and tactical insight to finally face your ultimate enemy. By -seeing- a threat-kata as a function of watching the bladework pattern develop. And choosing it's match from among your own that best suits the needs of the moment.

 

A swordsman is only as good as his students. And if you have no real trouble with them, then there is no 'breathless and dripping sweat, I stepped over the last fallen body to stand before the Sith Master' sense of WHAT IT TAKES to finally beat the man not his disciples.

 

Again, USING MY SYSTEM, there is one essential, elegant, cheat: Namely as long as the player has cuts left, he can and WILL defend, /perfectly/.

 

BUT, through the choice of improving _kata'd forms_ and as he gains 'live hands' via simple experience; he/she will be able to 'step inside the pattern' and _break it_ as he knocks his enemies blade out of guard and steps through for the clean kill. While, being 'purely linear' these dog-soldiers will never be able to fight back.

 

The difference (ironically) is 'in the numbers', of total enemy, whom the player MUST hold off by conserving enough cuts to /blend seamlessly/ between the present and next melee round, while exploring the boundless grace and variability (This kata or that one? Giving infinite replay value based on visual attraction of the fight mechanics 'where as a function of when the kill comes from') that is an elemental purity of opposed, intersecting, blade dance.

 

'Role Playing' is not about statistical combat. It is about adopting the persona of a character and 'seeing him thru' a game scenario that both states and reinforces yet also reveals new aspects and vulnerabilities of, your own psyche.

 

That is what is so sad about the use of P&P 'rules' based systems in a CRPG. In that they were invented to allow a DM to moderate physical laws that were undefined if not 'invisible' within the living imagination. While THE PLAYERS (plural) got to enjoy the dramatic interaction of a 'conversational theater' team play environment. There is NO live-action supporting cast in either KOTOR and K2 has effectively proven how shallow and unsatisfying 'sophistrated vs. sophisticated' artificial dialogue (that goes nowhere) can be.

 

But the dynamics of physics are very MUCH 'defined' through what the single player can 'observe and estimate a reason for being', on-screen. Offering a vital, visual, _mechanical_ alternative to the 'purely dice toss odds' based D20 setup.

 

 

Saberist Out.

[chibijulian]

Woah dude if you ever create a game, starwars or otherwise, im buying it! (w00t)

 

 

But i agree with the staff and the 2 sabers being just silly, i rather use one like in the movies, and the idea that 2>1 doesnt really apply when it comes to lightsabers.

[AlanC9]

Saberist, why don't you post your proposal on the Dragon Age board? Such ideas have no chance of appearing in a KotOR game, but since Bio's throwing out D&D, your ideas might get a fair hearing there. Or at least start an interesting debate.

 

http://forums.bioware.com/viewforum.html?forum=84

 

RPGCodex would be good for that too, though you'll probably have to get past folks calling you a pretentious twit or some such. It's a good board, but not polite.

 

http://www.rpgcodex.com

 

But I think you overestimate the appeal of the system. The problem you're trying to solve simply isn't seen as a problem by most RPG players. (Honestly, that mimicry system for learning new katas strikes me as being a horrible bore, like all tutorial levels)

[Reveilled]

As I understand it, the energy that creates the blade of a lightsaber passes through the crystals within the lightsaber in order to produce its properties. At the most basic level, this means it passes through the colour crystal and comes out of the end of the lightsaber.

Now, unless there are a bunch of mirrors inside a lightsaber in some way I can't concieve of, you would have to have seperate crystals for each individual blade in a double-bladed saber. The same with lenses, and probably emitters too. You'd need two of everything, or the bades would have different properties.

 

So why do double-sabrs only use one of everything?

[Saberist]

Alan C,

 

Thanks for the suggestion and critique, I hadn't considered Dragon's Age because I don't own the game and so can't register to their forums (or at least I can't if it's like KOTOR), I'm going to take a look at the RPG Codex in a moment.

 

In terms of the 'boring mimicry', I'm flexible! That's why I post to be honest.

 

Sounding-board away with some alternatives if you will.

 

As a point of reference to what I'm visualizing, think of 'Jedi Training' as something of a cross between the scene in _Conan The Barbarian_ in which the little Oriental dude with the horsetail braid jumps down into the pit arena and slaps this big Ah-nold brute silly for 'losing his focus'. And then kicks the peanut gallery in the crotch for daring to laugh at his training methods. Before later, alone, you see Conan 'getting it right'.

 

And a similar scene in _Highlander_ in which Duncan sets down his precious (too short for his height and too cripplingly predictable in it's single edge and slashing limited forms) Katana to relearn the Great Wheel of Distreza against a real swordsman. Footwork. Footwork. FOOTWORK!

 

Over and Over. Step and Slide Across. Shift and Turn And Cut. High and low. Prime and Secunde. A dance in which the purpose is not to make a rhythm between two people but to tease with it. And then to kill the one foolish enough to 'believe rather than know' when he can step in to follow rather than lead the next motion.

 

Breaking his biomechanical predictability by changing the pattern on the fly to create a new outcome. Constantly MOVING, which is something the Jedi seldom 'batting practice' do.

 

Learning at that level of mastery (basically what every Force Adept Apprentice would be /starting at/ within the SWU, IMO) should NOT be easy. It should be hard and it should be frustrating and humiliating and discouraging. There should be moments where, because your timing is off (foot leads, body centers, sword completes) with your master's stride. Or because you forgot to 'connect the dots' as you went from Q to D but didn't -turn- the grip as you moved from D to A.

 

You look like an utter git because 'blade master' that you are, why is your weapon sitting there, gleaming at your feet?

 

And in general, though your master never laughs, his silent appraisal hurts more because he knows when you've been practicing. And when you've slacked off. Or when you simply aren't a 'natural' and need to try even harder to get that particular part of the form.

 

And it seems like you will never...quite...get....THERE!

 

But you keep trying. Because the few examples he gives you make it look so beautiful. So effortless. And when 'there' finally happens, it is like everything in the universe suddenly makes sense. For just a moment.

 

When, for a mere 'instance' of potential opening, all of you -just is- as the blade becomes the pattern and you twist the pattern to what your enemy's existence dictates is different from the way you KNOW an engagement is about to go as your muscles, mind and vision all come together to make your will a living thing.

 

Now, given that this is Star Wars, I have no problem with (having memorized the form on a wheel diagram or linear mat system) seeing the instructor turning around to practice duel you using shinai or bokken type sticks so that 'as he plays the bad guy' you see literally how your form -succeeds-.

 

Or even moving onto some kind of 'Holodeck **** Fighting Droid' type system (Imagine HK-47 with a spinning top and multiple arms like the fighting automaton in _Dune_) illustrating the way it is supposed to be used -situationally- against more than 1 opponent.

 

i.e. As a reward for achievement you see '4 guys appear all around you' and by choosing the RIGHT GUY you just /flow/ through the engagement (Think _Last Samurai_ alleyway assassination scene only -better-):

 

Kill 1. Turn, Reverse Countercut, Twisting blade out before lunging in to stab throat. Kill 4. Drop to Knee, Void Under #3's Blade, Twist And Thrust Up. Kill. Step Back And Up To Feet, Spin and Step Out Again. Blade Graces Back Of Neck. As Number 2 goes rushing by.

 

So that, 'while it happens like a movie'. It REALLY IS _You_ who created the pattern. Who chose the target ordering. And /mastered the moment/ to make it occur.

 

Even in the most 'realistic' of Kenjutsu and Bojutsu (among others) archaic forms still practiced, more or less authentically in Japan, as well as the WMA/ARMA stuff here in the states. Pople don't often fight at full speed, 'with intent', anymore because padded blades and body armor or no, the risk of permanently defacing/debilitating 'dueling scars' (missing teeth and smashed knuckles) is too high.

 

And, without constant practice from childhood onwards, the eye and muscle memory and and psychomotor control plus sheer endurance just _never develop_ sufficiently to really hold the forms correctly at full intensity anyway.

 

But if you could ever **See It Done**. Like it was originally intended to be. It is a pure-blur of physical magic. The kind of warskill that lets a single 'knight' of any elite warrior nationality stand, untouchable, against seemingly impossible odds (10-20:1 or more if he chooses his ground correctly) of 'militia'. And win. Almost every time.

 

By comparison, having my own party members get in my way, having 'pause game' spacebar lags for every kill and mandatory target reassignment or aggression change as well as 'flashing neon signs' indicating everything from kill-XP to party member down, to target 'crosshairs' (when mines bubbles don't get in the way).

 

Just isn't even close.

 

Because it is all too technical looking. Too slow. And without flow of choice and pattern that is made-fate with a weapon that kills or incapacitates at every touch.

 

 

Saberist Out.

 

 

LINKS-

The Spanish Circle, Death As A Wheel Of Instances.

http://sjaqua.tripod.com/spanishc.htm

 

Linear Kata's between Uchitachi and the Shidachi.

http://users.skynet.be/nobara/TEST/Jokatas.htm

[AlanC9]

Nobody owns Dragon Age yet. It's still in pre-production; many basic elements of the design are still being worked out. That's why this is the time to make Big Suggestions.

[dabise]

Folks complained about the game being 'Too Easy'

 

 

 

Take dueling feats then and use a single bladed lightsabre.

 

 

That's what I did on one of my runs through the game. Just remember this is a ROLEplaying game. Bioware said it best in their first NWN manual. Sometimes the most interesting characters are the most flawed. If you only play an RPG to make your character as powerful as possible (Min/Max strategy) then don't complain about how one set of feats is more powerful than the next, especially when the game isn't multiplayer.

 

 

I found dueling to be quite a bit more fun than dual-wielding. The fights were actually challenging that way instead of clicking flurry a couple of times per fight (sometimes once only, even against the big guys)

 

 

 

Now if this game was an MMORPG I could see the moaning. You don't want to be limited in play because you picked a style of combat that the developers didn't decide to make more powerful in the next expansion.

 

Try the game with dueling. If your fun isn't based solely on the numbers that float in red above your opponent then I can say the game will still be just as fun if not more fun. In my case it was more fun because my 'boss' fights were a lot more interesting as the 'boss' actually lived for longer than 5 seconds. Regular trash opponents died in 5 seconds no matter what. Even when I fought unarmed.