Gray Jedi Prestige Classes and the PC version

[horuslvx]

Something I think that is terribly lacking in KOTOR2, despite it's numerous mentions via the Gray Jedi Robe, Master Zez Kai-Ell being one when you meet him on Nar Shaddaa, Kreia's teachings emphasizing neither the Jedi Code or the passionate fury of the Sith, and the fact that most situations/quests/conversations have a 'gray' or 'neutral' resolution... is that the game lacks prestige classes for the Exile who chooses not to walk the path of the Jedi or the Sith. There is also a historical precedent in KOTOR1 for this in the form of Jolee.

 

You can play through the game as a 'Gray' Jedi, keeping your alignment balanced, but there aren't any nifty bonuses for doing so, even though it's actually tougher to remain neutral than to pick the path of the light of the dark as you get deeper into the game; not to mention the fact that one of the major themes present throughout KOTOR2 is the idea of the Force needing to maintain a balance between light and dark, and that the balance must be maintained for life to continue. I would think the Jedi who pursue balance in their lives and in their knowledge of the Force would come to know powers and abilities of equal magnitude to those of the LS/DS Prestige classes, while being as unique to the alignment/starting class as the other prestige classes are on both sides. Indeed, given the number of universal force powers it would only make sense that their are higher mysteries to be learned in that direction.

 

This being said, I offer my ideas for prestige classes for the Gray Jedi Prestige classes in the hopes that others become interested in the idea and that it will eventually show up in the game, most likely as an after-market modification... but who knows?

 

Here follows my ideas including backstory, specific gained abilities by prestige class and a specialty power along the lines of Force Crush and Force Enlightenment (G - Jedi Guardian, S- Jedi Sentinel, C- Jedi Consular):

 

G - Gray Vanquisher

 

Backstory - In between the Weapon Master of the Jedi Order and the battle-crazed Sith Marauder exists the Gray Vanquisher. A consumate master of the lightsaber, only interested in seeking out, learning and perfecting the forms and techniques of their chosen weapon and the enlightenment that they can only find in battle where the line between life and death rests upon the, often bloody, edge of a razor. In these moments, when man and saber become indistinquishable, are when they are closest to the Force, feeling it fill them, connecting them to the ebb and flow of the entire galaxy, that they are truly at peace. The Vanquisher's live to test themselves in combat, often to the death, and so they have turned away from the Jedi Order and the Jedi Code's pacifistic teachings, though they find the lust for slaughter displayed by the Sith to be even more distasteful. Living by their honor and their blades, they travel the galaxy seeking out the ancient mysteries of the lightsaber and new tests to hone those abilities, they can be found in many roles, but always where the promise of battle is greatest.

 

Prestige abilities - The Vanquisher would recieve the same abilities as those shared by the WM and Marauder. The unique ability would reflect the Vanquisher's focus on becoming one with his chosen lightsaber style (double-saber, two saber or single saber.) To this end I would suggest two seperate abilities. The first would be either a special lightsaber form, or allowing the Vanquisher to recieve all the lightsaber forms, including the sentinel/assassin/watchman form. For a Force Power/Feat, I've come up with one called "Battle Focus" which is an activated power, costing 0 FPs to activate and not restricted by armor, that drains some FPs from the player whenever he is attacked or attacks in melee combat, giving him a bonus to defend when attacked, damage reduction when hit, a bonus to hit when attacking, a bonus to score a critical hit when he hits and a bonus to damage when he deals damage, all based on his total character level. The details would need to be balanced out by testing in the game as to not be too over-powered. This denotes the fact that he has devoted himself completely to the martial aspects of the Jedi and that this is how he uses the Force.

 

S - Gray Seeker

 

Backstory - Never content to live a cloistered existence inside the Jedi Enclave's, the Seeker combines the best of the Sith Assassin and the worst of the Jedi Watchman. Unlike the others though, the Seeker is not shackled by the Jedi Code or driven by hunger of the Sith. Marked even as child be a knack, or a need some would say, to ferret out things hidden or long forgotten, the Seeker is driven to simply discover things. Many of the Jedi's greatest historians and archaeologists have become Seekers, either leaving the Order to seek knowledge without restriction, or being driven out for finding the forbidden. While many who have followed a similar path have fallen slowly to the darkside, the Seeker is only interested in the truth, not power. The Seeker uses a combination of skill, stealth and guile in order to achieve his ends, and is well aware that not only does knowledge have a price, but that some secrets are guarded jealously, sometimes lethally. While many Seekers have been called thieves, grave-robbers and worse, they are still grossly out-numbered by those who are willing to pay handsomely for the Seekr's services in the only form a Seeker will accept.... a secret for a secret. These loners exist in a shadowy nether-world, moving through the galaxy but never truly a part of it, and this existence has left it's mark on them. They have become secretive in the extreme, coming and going like the wind, with the burden of the truths they so covet burning in their eyes.

 

Prestige abilities - The Seeker enjoys the same abilities as the Watchman and Assassin of course, except for the sneak attack feats. Instead of this feat line the Seeker has learned a few tricks from the KOTOR2 Scout's selection, being the Uncanny Dodge line and Evasion. As far as unique abilities go, the Seekers cannot have spent all that time studying forgotten lore, forbidden techniques and evading the traps and guardians of these secrets without developing some advantages from it. To reflect this the Seeker gains the Mind Trick power at level 1 Seeker and Force Confusion at level 5 Seeker, along with a unique feat and unique force power. The feat, "Instinct," gives the Seeker a bonus to Awareness, Persuade, To-Hit and Defense (combination of Empathy and Dueling basically) that is based on prestige class level (+2 for every 4 levels). The force power they would recieve would be "Force Insight" which would be a passive power that allows them to resist the effects of a force power they save against, even if it would normally still effect them, and maybe include a bonus to save against force effects based on level. They would also recieve the same special force power as the Gray Justicar, ala the Sith Assassin and Lord both gaining Force Crush.

 

C - Gray Justicar

 

Backstory - Drawn to the Force even more than Jedi Masters and Sith Lords are the Justicars. Even before joining the Jedi Order as an apprentice Justicars exhibited amazingly advanced abilities with using the Force, enough so that some have never had any formal training at all. As different from other Force-users as the Jedi are from the Sith, the Justicar seems to draw his knowledge and power directly from the Force itself, as if he is both more and less than a normal human, a living extension of the Force. Of the Gray Jedi, only the Justicars maintain ties between themselves, able to communicate over vast distances in some unknown way. The are drawn insistently to places amongst the galaxy where there is stagnation, seeking to restore the equilibrium of change, whether it be by seeding a subjugated world with rebellion or bringing corruption to an unspoiled paradise. Throughout history these hidden judges have nudged minds, whispered emtpy rumor, manufactured evidence and even staged murders to keep the galaxy in flux, constantly changing and enforcing the birth, death and re-birth that renews the galaxy and maintains its vibrancy and life. The Justicars follow only one tenet, have only rule: The only constant is change, for change brings new life and stagnation means the death of all.

 

Prestige abilities: The Justicar is far more connected to the Force than any other. They are surrounded by it, empowered by it and enslaved to it. To reflect this they also posses the abilities common between the Sith Lords and Jedi Masters. Beyond this, they gain several special abilities. Firstly, given the nature of their bond to the force they gain the ability "Force Vitality" which when active allows a portion of damage they take to come from their FPs. They gain the first level of this ability at level 1, where the damage is split 80/20, at level 5 they gain "Improved Force Vitality" which allows a split of 70/30 and level 9 "Master Force Vitality" for 60/40. In addition they gain a passive power "Force Intuitive" which allows to use Force Powers at reduced cost, whether they are universal, LS or DS, reducing the cost of their force powers by 25%. Finally they learn a power called "Force Equilibrium" an active power that causes any active or passive power in the party to have its effect increased by 10% for every 3 levels of he Justicar (10% at levels 1-3, 20% 4-6, 30% 7-9, etc) with a maximum of 50% increase.

 

As the power shared between Gray Jedi prestige classes should be something unique to their viewpoint (LS gets buffs, DS gets damage, Gray would get a balance between the two) so I was thinking of "Force Absorption" an active power that deals damage to a targeted enemy's VP and stats over time, increasing the VP and stats of the character at the same rate, and remains active until the target is dead. This ability drains life at the rate 8 ticks of 2 seconds each over 12 seconds doing the character level to VP per tick, and draining 2 stat points per tick with a maximum of 12 stat points. So at level 20, the power would drain 20 VP and 2 stat points every 2 seconds, maxing out at 120 VP and 12 stat points, with the stat loss remaining until the target is dead. There would be a Will save vs. DC 5 + Character Level + Cha mod + Wis mod, which would result in only dealing half character level to VP and 1 stat point every 2 seconds for 12 seconds. So at level 20, savng would deal 10 damage and 1 stat damage every 2 seconds for 12 seconds, maxing out at 60 damage and 6 stat points, with the PC gaining no benefit. This would need to be balanced out in game of course.

 

Hope my ideas find a use somewhere, as the one part of the game that bothers me is the lack of any 'neutral' prestige classes.

 

-horus -lvx-

[Drakron]

Classes are hardcored and there will be no extras for the PC version.

[draakh_kimera]

Something I think that is terribly lacking in KOTOR2, despite it's numerous mentions via the Gray Jedi Robe, Master Zez Kai-Ell being one when you meet him on Nar Shaddaa, Kreia's teachings emphasizing neither the Jedi Code or the passionate fury of the Sith, and the fact that most situations/quests/conversations have a 'gray' or 'neutral' resolution...  is that the game lacks prestige classes for the Exile who chooses not to walk the path of the Jedi or the Sith.  There is also a historical precedent in KOTOR1 for this in the form of Jolee.

 

You can play through the game as a 'Gray' Jedi, keeping your alignment balanced, but there aren't any nifty bonuses for doing so, even though it's actually tougher to remain neutral than to pick the path of the light of the dark as you get deeper into the game;  not to mention the fact that one of the major themes present throughout KOTOR2 is the idea of the Force needing to maintain a balance between light and dark, and that the balance must be maintained for life to continue.  I would think the Jedi who pursue balance in their lives and in their knowledge of the Force would come to know powers and abilities of equal magnitude to those of the LS/DS Prestige classes, while being as unique to the alignment/starting class as the other prestige classes are on both sides.  Indeed, given the number of universal force powers it would only make sense that their are higher mysteries to be learned in that direction. 

 

This being said, I offer my ideas for prestige classes for the Gray Jedi Prestige classes in the hopes that others become interested in the idea and that it will eventually show up in the game, most likely as an after-market modification... but who knows?

 

Here follows my ideas including backstory, specific gained abilities by prestige class and a specialty power along the lines of Force Crush and Force Enlightenment (G - Jedi Guardian, S- Jedi Sentinel, C- Jedi Consular):

 

G - Gray Vanquisher

 

Backstory - In between the Weapon Master of the Jedi Order and the battle-crazed Sith Marauder exists the Gray Vanquisher.  A consumate master of the lightsaber, only interested in seeking out, learning and perfecting the forms and techniques of their chosen weapon and the enlightenment that they can only find in battle where the line between life and death rests upon the, often bloody, edge of a razor.  In these moments, when man and saber become indistinquishable, are when they are closest to the Force, feeling it fill them, connecting them to the ebb and flow of the entire galaxy, that they are truly at peace.  The Vanquisher's live to test themselves in combat, often to the death, and so they have turned away from the Jedi Order and the Jedi Code's pacifistic teachings, though they find the lust for slaughter displayed by the Sith to be even more distasteful.  Living by their honor and their blades, they travel the galaxy seeking out the ancient mysteries of the lightsaber and new tests to hone those abilities, they can be found in many roles, but always where the promise of battle is greatest.

 

Prestige abilities - The Vanquisher would recieve the same abilities as those shared by the WM and Marauder.  The unique ability would reflect the Vanquisher's focus on becoming one with his chosen lightsaber style (double-saber, two saber or single saber.)  To this end I would suggest two seperate abilities.  The first would be either a special lightsaber form, or allowing the Vanquisher to recieve all the lightsaber forms, including the sentinel/assassin/watchman form.  For a Force Power/Feat, I've come up with one called "Battle Focus" which is an activated power, costing 0 FPs to activate and not restricted by armor, that drains some FPs from the player whenever he is attacked or attacks in melee combat, giving him a bonus to defend when attacked, damage reduction when hit, a bonus to hit when attacking, a bonus to score a critical hit when he hits and a bonus to damage when he deals damage, all based on his total character level.  The details would need to be balanced out by testing in the game as to not be too over-powered.  This denotes the fact that he has devoted himself completely to the martial aspects of the Jedi and that this is how he uses the Force.

 

S - Gray Seeker

 

Backstory - Never content to live a cloistered existence inside the Jedi Enclave's, the Seeker combines the best of the Sith Assassin and the worst of the Jedi Watchman.  Unlike the others though, the Seeker is not shackled by the Jedi Code or driven by hunger of the Sith.  Marked even as child be a knack, or a need some would say, to ferret out things hidden or long forgotten, the Seeker is driven to simply discover things.  Many of the Jedi's greatest historians and archaeologists have become Seekers, either leaving the Order to seek knowledge without restriction, or being driven out for finding the forbidden.  While many who have followed a similar path have fallen slowly to the darkside, the Seeker is only interested in the truth, not power.  The Seeker uses a combination of skill, stealth and guile in order to achieve his ends, and is well aware that not only does knowledge have a price, but that some secrets are guarded jealously, sometimes lethally.  While many Seekers have been called thieves, grave-robbers and worse, they are still grossly out-numbered by those who are willing to pay handsomely for the Seekr's services in the only form a Seeker will accept....  a secret for a secret.  These loners exist in a shadowy nether-world, moving through the galaxy but never truly a part of it, and this existence has left it's mark on them.  They have become secretive in the extreme, coming and going like the wind, with the burden of the truths they so covet burning in their eyes.

 

Prestige abilities - The Seeker enjoys the same abilities as the Watchman and Assassin of course, except for the sneak attack feats.  Instead of this feat line the Seeker has learned a few tricks from the KOTOR2 Scout's selection, being the Uncanny Dodge line and Evasion.  As far as unique abilities go, the Seekers cannot have spent all that time studying forgotten lore, forbidden techniques and evading the traps and guardians of these secrets without developing some advantages from it.  To reflect this the Seeker gains the Mind Trick power at level 1 Seeker and Force Confusion at level 5 Seeker, along with a unique feat and unique force power.  The feat, "Instinct," gives the Seeker a bonus to Awareness, Persuade, To-Hit and Defense (combination of Empathy and Dueling basically) that is based on prestige class level (+2 for every 4 levels).  The force power they would recieve would be "Force Insight" which would be a passive power that allows them to resist the effects of a force power they save against, even if it would normally still effect them, and maybe include a bonus to save against force effects based on level.  They would also recieve the same special force power as the Gray Justicar, ala the Sith Assassin and Lord both gaining Force Crush.

 

C - Gray Justicar

 

Backstory - Drawn to the Force even more than Jedi Masters and Sith Lords are the Justicars.  Even before joining the Jedi Order as an apprentice Justicars exhibited amazingly advanced abilities with using the Force, enough so that some have never had any formal training at all.  As different from other Force-users as the Jedi are from the Sith, the Justicar seems to draw his knowledge and power directly from the Force itself, as if he is both more and less than a normal human, a living extension of the Force.  Of the Gray Jedi, only the Justicars maintain ties between themselves, able to communicate over vast distances in some unknown way.  The are drawn insistently to places amongst the galaxy where there is stagnation, seeking to restore the equilibrium of change, whether it be by seeding a subjugated world with rebellion  or bringing corruption to an unspoiled paradise.  Throughout history these hidden judges have nudged minds, whispered emtpy rumor, manufactured evidence and even staged murders to keep the galaxy in flux, constantly changing and enforcing the birth, death and re-birth that renews the galaxy and maintains its vibrancy and life.  The Justicars follow only one tenet, have only rule: The only constant is change, for change brings new life and stagnation means the death of all.

 

Prestige abilities:  The Justicar is far more connected to the Force than any other.  They are surrounded by it, empowered by it and enslaved to it.  To reflect this they also posses the abilities common between the Sith Lords and Jedi Masters.  Beyond this, they gain several special abilities.  Firstly, given the nature of their bond to the force they gain the ability "Force Vitality" which when active allows a portion of damage they take to come from their FPs.  They gain the first level of this ability at level 1, where the damage is split 80/20, at level 5 they gain "Improved Force Vitality" which allows a split of 70/30 and level 9 "Master Force Vitality" for 60/40.  In addition they gain a passive power "Force Intuitive" which allows to use Force Powers at reduced cost, whether they are universal, LS or DS, reducing the cost of their force powers by 25%.  Finally they learn a power called "Force Equilibrium" an active power that causes any active or passive power in the party to have its effect increased by 10% for every 3 levels of he Justicar (10% at levels 1-3, 20% 4-6, 30% 7-9, etc) with a maximum of 50% increase.

 

As the power shared between Gray Jedi prestige classes should be something unique to their viewpoint (LS gets buffs, DS gets damage, Gray would get a balance between the two) so I was thinking of "Force Absorption" an active power that deals damage to a targeted enemy's VP and stats over time, increasing the VP and stats of the character at the same rate,  and remains active until the target is dead.  This ability drains life at the rate 8 ticks of 2 seconds each over 12 seconds doing the character level  to VP per tick, and draining 2 stat points per tick with  a maximum of 12 stat points.  So at level 20, the power would drain 20 VP and 2 stat points every 2 seconds, maxing out at 120 VP and 12 stat points, with the stat loss remaining until the target is dead.  There would be a Will save vs. DC 5 + Character Level + Cha mod + Wis mod, which would result in only dealing half character level  to VP and 1 stat point every 2 seconds for 12 seconds.  So at level 20, savng would deal 10 damage and 1 stat damage every 2 seconds for 12 seconds, maxing out at 60 damage and 6 stat points, with the PC gaining no benefit.  This would need to be balanced out in game of course.

 

Hope my ideas find a use somewhere, as the one part of the game that bothers me is the lack of any 'neutral' prestige classes.

 

-horus -lvx-

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

...You have a lot of free time, don't you?

[Astatine]

*flicks into thread and sees something that looks sinisterly that might look like a spoiler*

*looks away*

 

(As a result, I haven't actually read what you're saying. This is not going to stop me posting, my ego is far too big for that )

 

Jolee only pretended to himself that he "saw grey" / was traditionally "neutral". He was a light-sider in denial. His character wouldn't have had such charm without that, but at the same time, it was very dissappointing at the end for a dark side PC.

 

I would both love this as an option, and be horrified by it. Y'see, whilst it makes total sense, part of the essential... StarWarsness... of the Star Wars universe is that there is no grey, only light and dark. It's sort of a paradox, something to contemplate on in a similar way to the paradoxes and nonsenses that the old lore of many earthly religions indulges in... perhaps that's partly why Star Wars is so cool?

 

Whether or not it should be included in an official game is, I suspect, a moot point, because I'm sure LucasArts would veto such a thing. A mod I'd be intrigued by.

 

I'm not sure whether it's a good idea. I was going to run a Star Wars pen-and-paper campaign in which I would explore this very issue but my gaming group didn't want to play Star Wars.

 

*stops writing drivel now*

[horuslvx]

To Drakron:

 

It's amazing what modders can do these days.... and I really never expected the devs to change their game just because I made a post.

 

Thank you so much for your response and comments about the ideas I presented though, I'll be sure to think of your inspirational remarks in the future.

 

To draakh_kimera:

 

...you have no idea

 

To Astatine:

 

I don't think anything in there is a spoiler, only the mention of ZKE on NS is at all specific and it was just a mention. Mostly its just about the concept of the Gray Jedi, which do exist in Canon, and are mentioned a couple times in the game in non-plot specific ways.

 

My point was just that in KOTOR2 they made the game have a lot of choices, and choosing the path of the twilight between the light and the dark is possible, but there just aren't any reasons to do so. It was mainly aimed at those people out there already thinking about mods for the PC release, and maybe for future KOTOR games.

 

In all seriousness I would have preferred a non-class/non-level system where you used experience to buy more VP/FP, increase stats, buy skills/feats and powers, with specialized abilities (powers, forms, etc) available through NPC interaction, training, alignment and choices/plot events while you progressed through rankings from apprentice to padawan to knight to master.... but that's just me. I'd just prefer the complete customization allowed by that sort of system, I think it gives you a fuller game experience as you create your character along the way, instead of just picking a predetermined path to follow.

 

-horus -lvx-

[Fearless_Jedi]

This isn't that bad of an idea, usually those Jedi who follow the light nor the dark are called Rouge Jedi sort of like Kyle Katarn, though he isn't the best example he could learn powers of both the light and dark.

 

Anyway I would like the idea of being neutral and with a little modding to TSL for the PC you could probably do that if u wanted wouldn't be all that hard.

[Drakron]

No, rouge jedi are (most) female jedi that wear too much makeup.

 

And sorry there is no "grey side", the Star Wars universe is quite clear there is a light side and a dark side and using the dark side means they became evil, any force user that starts to use the dark side is only going down that path futher.

 

Mind you there is a way from the dark side but that means stop using it.

 

As for Jolee ... remenber one thing, he was grey because he never gone out of his way to help others or to harm others, he was not using the dark side.

[BuckeyeRowe]

And sorry there is no "grey side".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Agreed.

 

And if you wish to fight on this point (which has been discussed many times on this board), please read other threads on this topic first, then give your arguement.

[draakh_kimera]

Okey dokey, no gray side, check. How bout a "neutral zone" then? I mean, you got light at one end, and dark at the other, but I highly doubt that there's NOTHING in between...

[Catalyst]

True neutrality is impossible to play in a game. You can mix Light and Dark, but its not true grey. Whether or not 'Grey' exists in Star Wars at all, well I'll leave you to argue it out.

[DSLuke]

If grey existed then the game couldn't possibly end, since your character couldn't make up his mind about what he is to do.

[Astatine]

If grey existed then the game couldn't possibly end, since your character couldn't make up his mind about what he is to do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Really? What is neutrality? Neutrality isn't necessarily indecisiveness.

 

There are several ways a "neutral" (on the Good-Evil axis) character might go, because of course that axis comes nowhere near to fully describing them. One might believe in order above all else (and thereby pick a path and single-mindedly force it to a conclusion, for the sake of ending the war). Another might truly not care, and decide on the flip of a coin (it could be argued such a character is actually "evil", but I would suggest not so long as they truly follow the randomness of their coin-flipping and believe in this philosophy). Yet another might believe in embracing change whenever it comes, whatever its form, and thereby favour the Sith in KOTOR1 (soon to jump ship, I'm sure), on that principle.

 

One thing I noticed in KOTOR1 is that Bioware has a bit of a tendency to equate "Good" == "Lawful" (as in, the definition of "Lawful" out of D&D). Take the Sunry murder case for instance. Deliberately letting him off was considered an "Evil" act by the game and I was most dissappointed in this (it was a "Lawful"/"Chaotic dichotomy not a "Good/Evil" one, ironically the sort NWN -- whose alignment system was capable of describing such, unlike KOTOR's -- lacked chronically) -- the only time I completed this one as a light-side character (couldn't be bothered on later replays, it was too laborious) my character deliberately let Sunry off, in defiance of the law, and earned dark side points from this action, out of the belief that Sunry was fundamentally a good person and that what he had done had furthered the cause of Good and of the Republic. Those "Good/Evil" and "Lawful/Chaotic" axes are orthogonal (why shouldn't they be?)

 

"Grey" does exist as a state of mind. The problem in the Star Wars universe is that part of its spirit is that the significance of the "Good/Evil" axis is huge, in comparison to other traits of personality, and strength in the Force appears to be derived from hitting its extremes. The "Grey" Jedi should have a hard time of it because of the way the Star Wars universe is.

 

A lot of interesting plot material could be derived from thinking about what those "Good" and "Evil" extremes really are, since they directly grant power to the characters who believe in them...

[Drakron]

Wrong, Mannan trial gives no force points either resolution, the only place it does is during a dialogue choice still on the investigation.

 

There is no "right" or "wrong" way to deal with that quest by design, both ending also the same reward in terms of XP..

 

In fact people get anoyed because of that since it deeps down to the player making a choice and having to live with it and not having the game saying a choice is good or evil.

[BuckeyeRowe]

Acutally yes, you can get alignment points at the Sunry trial.

 

If grey existed then the game couldn't possibly end, since your character couldn't make up his mind about what he is to do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Really? What is neutrality? Neutrality isn't necessarily indecisiveness.

 

There are several ways a "neutral" (on the Good-Evil axis) character might go, because of course that axis comes nowhere near to fully describing them. One might believe in order above all else (and thereby pick a path and single-mindedly force it to a conclusion, for the sake of ending the war). Another might truly not care, and decide on the flip of a coin (it could be argued such a character is actually "evil", but I would suggest not so long as they truly follow the randomness of their coin-flipping and believe in this philosophy). Yet another might believe in embracing change whenever it comes, whatever its form, and thereby favour the Sith in KOTOR1 (soon to jump ship, I'm sure), on that principle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you join a side, whether by conviction or the toss of a coin, you are taking a side - thus, you are no longer neutral.

 

Neutral must not be fighting for either side. Period. That's neutral.

 

Which brings us to the "gray jedi" question. A gray Jedi cannot exist. Either he fights for the dark side, or he doesn't.

 

"But what if he's neutral?", you ask.

 

When it comes to Jedi, it's a little different. If a Jedi doesn't fight for the light or the dark, you are in effect dark as you don't fight the dark. (Have you ever heard of Sin by silence). Sure, you may not be as dark as Malak bombing Taris, but you are not being light and fighting the dark side.

[Astatine]

Acutally yes, you can get alignment points at the Sunry trial.

 

If grey existed then the game couldn't possibly end, since your character couldn't make up his mind about what he is to do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Really? What is neutrality? Neutrality isn't necessarily indecisiveness.

 

There are several ways a "neutral" (on the Good-Evil axis) character might go, because of course that axis comes nowhere near to fully describing them. One might believe in order above all else (and thereby pick a path and single-mindedly force it to a conclusion, for the sake of ending the war). Another might truly not care, and decide on the flip of a coin (it could be argued such a character is actually "evil", but I would suggest not so long as they truly follow the randomness of their coin-flipping and believe in this philosophy). Yet another might believe in embracing change whenever it comes, whatever its form, and thereby favour the Sith in KOTOR1 (soon to jump ship, I'm sure), on that principle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If you join a side, whether by conviction or the toss of a coin, you are taking a side - thus, you are no longer neutral.

 

 

So what do you call a character who fights for the "Evil" side, then turns coat and fights for the "Good" side for whatever reason, then turns coat again and fights for the "Evil" side for a reason similar or otherwise to the first, and so on? Your definition of their "Good" or "Evil" nature does not simply flip from one to the other as often as they change sides, does it? You form an opinion on them. Your opinion of them may very well be "Evil", but does this make them as "Evil" as the Grand Villain, even though whilst they fought for "Good" they did many good deeds and saved many lives, whilst the Grand Villain continued to only bring slaughter and destruction? In fact, can their "Good" and "Evil" actions cancel each other out? What net difference is there between this character and a "Neutral" bystander who does nothing? (A cold viewpoint, yes, but an attempt at being objective and that's the point here...)

 

Neutral must not be fighting for either side. Period. That's neutral.

 

Well dear me, what a sweeping statement. "Neutral", in the implication of the thread above, is the word for what falls in the centre of the "Good"-"Evil" axis. You've just gone and redefined it.

 

If there can be degrees of "Good" and "Evil" and it is possible to pass from one to the other, then that passing must be through a middle ground -- a "Neutral". That's the definition that's been used up until now and I'll stick with it.

 

Which brings us to the "gray jedi" question. A gray Jedi cannot exist. Either he fights for the dark side, or he doesn't.

 

"But what if he's neutral?", you ask.

 

When it comes to Jedi, it's a little different. If a Jedi doesn't fight for the light or the dark, you are in effect dark as you don't fight the dark. (Have you ever heard of Sin by silence). Sure, you may not be as dark as Malak bombing Taris, but you are not being light and fighting the dark side.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What's different between a Jedi, and someone else?

 

Well, a Jedi gains power from the Force, which flows from their "Good/Evil" philosophy.

 

That's it.

 

Does this give them obligations? No. Their society might give them obligations, as might their personal beliefs, but they are as free as anyone else is to reject both. To oversimplify and categorise, that is a "Lawful/Chaotic" decision, an axis orthogonal to "Good/Evil" (and therefore which does not affect it).

 

I believe that the Jedi who stands back and does nothing to prevent Evil or to prevent Good, is as "Neutral" as the non-Jedi who stands back and does nothing to prevent Evil or to prevent Good (whom you described above as "Neutral").

 

What exactly constitutes "fighting the dark" anyway?

 

I'll go out on a limb here. Look at the role of Yoda in The Empire Strikes Back and (to a lesser extent) in Return of the Jedi. How much fighting of the dark side does Yoda truly do?

 

Superficially, none.

 

Yoda trains Luke in the Force (although not completely). Yoda also attempts to prevent Luke from going to the rescue of his friends and from confronting Darth Vader, which Luke does anyway, to the good of all concerned (except perhaps the Stormtroopers killed in the crossfire). Why? Through his visions he sees (or believes he sees) Luke's chances of success and judges them slim, and he simply calculates it would be better for Luke to not go, and attempts to prevent him from doing so. The "light side" cannot truly be considered to enter into such a decision. A similar calculating decision made by the PC on Kashyyyk when answering the authorisation system retrofitted to the relic about what battle tactics to use earns the PC dark side points if he chooses the option to sacrifice some lives now in exchange for the best odds of an eventual win (with resulting net saving of lives), which is basically the same tradeoff as the one Yoda made.

 

Yoda's done nothing immediately, personally active to fight the dark side. We've seen how strong he is in the Force in the prequels, and in ESB we see him raise Luke's X-Wing from the swamp; he wasn't a gonner right away, and he could have gone with Luke to Bespin for the rescue. He didn't.

 

Was Yoda really "fighting the dark", then?

 

Were Yoda's actions "Good"? Were they "Neutral"? Were they in fact "Evil"?

 

Can there really be "Neutral" Jedi? It appears to come down to the nature of the Force, which strongly pushes in one direction or the other. The "neutral" Jedi is balancing on a knife-edge because of it. So I'd say -- yes in thought, usually not in deed, and it's interesting to try

[Ostkant]

There is no such thing as gray... you're always either doing something of the Light, or the Dark. There's nothing between good and bad, whatever you do is perhaps a bit of both in that case.

[Astatine]

I see I made myself incomprehensible, as always.

[DSLuke]

In the end you have to make a choice

[BuckeyeRowe]

In the end you have to make a choice

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's what I say.

 

Alas, I am weary. I have fought this fight too many times. In the end some will say you can be gray, some not. I am not going to fight this one again, as it will change no ones mind.

[GeneralCrimson]

There is no such thing as gray... you're always either doing something of the Light, or the Dark. There's nothing between good and bad, whatever you do is perhaps a bit of both in that case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

in k2 there is a nuetral choice in the end. When kreia asks what you're gonna do next you these options: leave and do nothing(neutral), follow the path of Revan (light) find out about your friends(when you use this option and as you continue the game decides what ending it is depending on your allignment) and then the darkside option which i don't remember what it was. Thats what i remember seeing anyways