Influence system, can it be modified for the PC?

[kumquatq3]

Lets say Knight1 wants to save people. Normally Knight1 would applaud you for donating gold to poor or chasing off thugs who were mugging someone. Slowly, through your influence, they begin to slip to the darkside.

 

They're not going to completely do a 180 and applaud you for aiding muggers then killing the muggers and taking the loot. It would be subtle, something like killing the muggers instead of just chasing them off.

 

I have no problem with how the influence system works now. In life you could never, over the course of a few monthes, make someone shift in personality so much that they turn from a good sumaritan to a ruthless serial killer, or vice versa.

 

I have to disagree, mostly because this isn't real life, it's a game. Plus, your NPCs can turn from a nice tan to looking like a zombie from going to the DS in the time period the game allows, but they can't turn even a bit evil?

 

Plus, Malak turned Bastila pretty quick.

 

and your example, if what we are told is correct is correct, fails, as the slip to the DS isn't subtle. It's non-existant. The PNPCs don't change personality or preferences (they still want the muggers to just be chased off after they master the DS). Maybe thats been reported wrong (I hope), I havn't played the game, but thats how it was describe by numerous people. It just basically deals with thier force powers ,a few scenes where their alignment comes into play as checks, and what NPC quest you can get at.

 

Please, if I'm wrong, I'd REALLY love to know....cuz what is there seems lackluster after the build up of the system.

 

THat being said, I agree with Vol that it will be a fun game, and I'll buy it the day it comes out for the PC....but the influence system was described as this deep grand thing and it doesn't seem thats the case.

[Leferd]

and your example, if what we are told is correct is correct, fails, as the slip to the DS isn't subtle. It's non-existant. The PNPCs don't change personality or preferences (they still want the muggers to just be chased off after they master the DS). Maybe thats been reported wrong (I hope), I havn't played the game, but thats how it was describe by numerous people. It just basically deals with thier force powers ,a few scenes where their alignment comes into play as checks, and what NPC quest you can get at.

 

 

That is incorrect. I don't want to reveal any spoilers but there is atleast one character who made significant headway in changing alignment, personality, and preferences due to my influence. And it wasn't because I went out of character to be this character's yes man.

[Shadowstrider]

The influence system seems pretty weak comapred to what it was supposedly meant to be. The Influence System was one of the changes I was most looking forward to. Fromw aht i've seen, you have as much influence on the KOTOR2 npcs as you do the KOTOR1 npcs - the only differences is the KOTOR2 npcs do a 'fake" dark/light slider slide. That is plain silly, and a total waste of effort if it is how it works.

 

No.

 

Without spoiling it you can drastically change a few NPCs outlook on things.

 

and your example, if what we are told is correct is correct, fails, as the slip to the DS isn't subtle. It's non-existant. The PNPCs don't change personality or preferences (they still want the muggers to just be chased off after they master the DS). Maybe thats been reported wrong (I hope), I havn't played the game, but thats how it was describe by numerous people. It just basically deals with thier force powers ,a few scenes where their alignment comes into play as checks, and what NPC quest you can get at.

 

I'm not sure what you've been told. However I *HAVE* noticed a signifigant change in my play throughs.

 

As I said, a person who wants to help people doesn't turn into a serial killer. They do however tolerate it when you kill a "bad guy" to save a beggar, rather than scaring them off.

 

I have to disagree, mostly because this isn't real life, it's a game. Plus, your NPCs can turn from a nice tan to looking like a zombie from going to the DS in the time period the game allows, but they can't turn even a bit evil?

 

Games should emulate parts of real life, in my opinion, otherwise they're convuluted.

 

That said, who says butchering a thug who is mugging someone else isn't evil?

 

Plus, Malak turned Bastila pretty quick.

A failing of KotOR1, and one of the WORST plot devices ever used.

 

I'll give you a semi-spoiler change in an NPCs attitude that I've encountered. Read it if you want.

 

*Spoiler*

 

On Nar Shadaa I encountered a pair of thugs husstling a man who then tried to say he had given me his money. So the thugs turn to me and demand the money. The options were the usual kill them, pay them the coin, intimidate them, persuade them, and lastly force persuade them to jump down into a huge hole(leading to their death). I force persuaded them to jump to their death. Handmaiden, who is normally a good-aligned NPC, but through my influence became evil slowly) applauded my merciful way of handling the situation for ending their lives quickly without causing any direct pain.

 

*/Spoiler*

[Naso]

As though you have half a clue what their contract covered. 

Either the contract bound them to LA's will on release dates and when it was done, or this was rushed on their own initiative. Either way, they are culpable.

[kumquatq3]

What I heard this all form was all from a thread I linked to in the first post of this thread.

 

But, tho I'm not reading hte spoiler , it's good to hear that it may not be as bad as some people described it.

[jcrapes]

According to the game quide. Sometimes you can still get conversations with a negative influence. So you are ds and talking to ls npc. if you acquire enough "negative" influence you can the same dialog options that is with a high positive influence. I have not tried this its just what the guide says.

[envida]

According to the game quide. Sometimes you can still get conversations with a negative influence. So you are ds and talking to ls npc. if you acquire enough "negative" influence you can the same dialog options that is with a high positive influence. I have not tried this its just what the guide says.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If that's true, then the influence system just improved ten times for me. Especially when playing as ds

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"But, tho I'm not reading hte spoiler , it's good to hear that it may not be as bad as some people described it."

 

I read it. Now I don't get what the hell are these people whining about - it sounds ****ing brilliant!

[Shadowstrider]

"But, tho I'm not reading hte spoiler , it's good to hear that it may not be as bad as some people described it."

 

I read it. Now I don't get what the hell are these people whining about - it sounds ****ing brilliant!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have been following KotOR2 for a long time(before its official announcement even). I absorbed everything the devs said about the influence system, and I wasn't disappointed in the slightest. It is more in-depth than any game I have played to-date.

[EnderAndrew]

I don't want to cross-post, so I'll simply point here. I think the influence issue is one that pertains to both XBox and PC, so I posted in the general area.

 

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=27280

[Astatine]

*risks glance at thread in forum with potential for spoilers*

 

Ooooooooooooooooooohhh. (w00t) (w00t) (w00t)

 

*leaves drooling*

[maia]

  In life you could never, over the course of a few monthes, make someone shift in personality so much that they turn from a good sumaritan to a ruthless serial killer, or vice versa.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Unfortunately the "fall to DS" part happens quite often in RL whenever religious or ideological conflicts flare up. A lot of people who want only to act for the best, sacrifice more and more of their morality in order to achieve their ideal (which needn't be evil in itself) and end up as either desillusioned cynical monsters or delusional monsters.

Frankly, that's the path I expected Bastila's fall to DS to take in K1 - but unfortunately Bioware took a different and IMHO flat and disappointing approach.

 

 

Anyway, I'll repost my thoughts from the "General Discussion" thread:

 

But shouldn't the fall to DS affect NPC's reactions and perspective? I mean, it is such a huge thing in SW universe... They may still dislike certain type of behaviour, but their reasons should change - for instance they might think that it is too petty for a Sith Lord and thus demeaning or a sign that the PC thinks small or that it is a useless loss of time, etc.

Also, doesn't being solicitious to your party NPCs in order to get influence result in LS points? I hear that there is no option to lie to them.

 

Now, I also think that change of alignment is a very serious matter and should have been played through a quest or a side-event like in KOTOR1 (only there the NPC's either didn't follow your evil advice or if they did - like Mission betraying the Beks, it had no effect on alignment) . Actually the ideal would be a combination of both systems - i.e you'd have to gain enough influence with an NPC for their quest to activate.

 

Their likes/dislikes or at least reasons for them should change along with alignment change. If after the change the PC persists in doing things they hate, however, their alignment shouldn't change again - such flip-flopping just trivialises the whole fall/redemption issue. Instead, they should just become less and less helpful and more derisive and eventually they should leave the party and/or fight the PC, etc. It would also be awesome if an NPC that left the party in scorn subsequently appeared at the side of your enemy in a boss fight, etc.

 

And:

 

Or maybe the most important of NPC's likes/dislikes shouldn't be aligned along the LS/DS axis to begin with.

 

For instance, let's say there is an NPC who worships courage and reacts negatively when you duck any challenge. He starts dark, but you can redeem him. You'd still lose influence with him if you peacefully deflect folks spoiling for a fight, but your other LS choices shouldn't upset him anymore. Etc.

 

Or an LS char that hated bullying to begin with might still hate it after becoming DS - as a sign of PC's weakness and small-mindedness, but would heartily endorse other DS actions.

 

Further, you should be able to lessen a negative impact of your actions on an NPC to certain degree via high persuasion - explaining to the first how battling insignificant opponents is beneath you, for instance, and to the second that it is helping you towards the main goal, etc.

 

I'd really love a game where I could slowly corrupt a young idealist via the "end sanctifies the means", "it's us or them" and "sacrifices must be made for the good of the future generations" route that works so well in RL ...

[LoneWolf16]

  In life you could never, over the course of a few monthes, make someone shift in personality so much that they turn from a good sumaritan to a ruthless serial killer, or vice versa.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Unfortunately the "fall to DS" part happens quite often in RL whenever religious or ideological conflicts flare up. A lot of people who want only to act for the best, sacrifice more and more of their morality in order to achieve their ideal (which needn't be evil in itself) and end up as either desillusioned cynical monsters or delusional monsters.

Frankly, that's the path I expected Bastila's fall to DS to take in K1 - but unfortunately Bioware took a different and IMHO flat and disappointing approach.

 

 

Anyway, I'll repost my thoughts from the "General Discussion" thread:

 

But shouldn't the fall to DS affect NPC's reactions and perspective? I mean, it is such a huge thing in SW universe... They may still dislike certain type of behaviour, but their reasons should change - for instance they might think that it is too petty for a Sith Lord and thus demeaning or a sign that the PC thinks small or that it is a useless loss of time, etc.

Also, doesn't being solicitious to your party NPCs in order to get influence result in LS points? I hear that there is no option to lie to them.

 

Now, I also think that change of alignment is a very serious matter and should have been played through a quest or a side-event like in KOTOR1 (only there the NPC's either didn't follow your evil advice or if they did - like Mission betraying the Beks, it had no effect on alignment) . Actually the ideal would be a combination of both systems - i.e you'd have to gain enough influence with an NPC for their quest to activate.

 

Their likes/dislikes or at least reasons for them should change along with alignment change. If after the change the PC persists in doing things they hate, however, their alignment shouldn't change again - such flip-flopping just trivialises the whole fall/redemption issue. Instead, they should just become less and less helpful and more derisive and eventually they should leave the party and/or fight the PC, etc. It would also be awesome if an NPC that left the party in scorn subsequently appeared at the side of your enemy in a boss fight, etc.

 

And:

 

Or maybe the most important of NPC's likes/dislikes shouldn't be aligned along the LS/DS axis to begin with.

 

For instance, let's say there is an NPC who worships courage and reacts negatively when you duck any challenge. He starts dark, but you can redeem him. You'd still lose influence with him if you peacefully deflect folks spoiling for a fight, but your other LS choices shouldn't upset him anymore. Etc.

 

Or an LS char that hated bullying to begin with might still hate it after becoming DS - as a sign of PC's weakness and small-mindedness, but would heartily endorse other DS actions.

 

Further, you should be able to lessen a negative impact of your actions on an NPC to certain degree via high persuasion - explaining to the first how battling insignificant opponents is beneath you, for instance, and to the second that it is helping you towards the main goal, etc.

 

I'd really love a game where I could slowly corrupt a young idealist via the "end sanctifies the means", "it's us or them" and "sacrifices must be made for the good of the future generations" route that works so well in RL ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Makes sense, and would make the game more involving, more realistic, by those virtues alone.

 

Not sure I agree with the "hearty endorsement of all other DS acts save for the one thing they actually care about" thing. If you wanted this much depth, wouldn't it be prudent to give each individual NPC their own moral code, and belief structure, allowing the PC to gradually learn it, and use it to further his/her own intentions?

 

That last part kind of scares me, Maia. Sorta reminds me of U.S. governmental policy .