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...and he presumes that ppl slate it cos of the storyline alone. check out the support forum dude.

Runs With Scissors is only refering to the threads which question the integrity story, which are plentiful. The technical issues found in the game are not a point of argument in this thread.

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those two aspects of the game interlinked, if there are glitches they will have more negative perspective of the game and hence the storyline.

 

dont pick at threads of nothingness, its like me telling that when you sed 'a point of argument' you should of said 'the point of argument'

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those two aspects of the game interlinked, if there are glitches they will have more negative perspective of the game and hence the storyline.

 

dont pick at threads of nothingness, its like me telling that when you sed 'a point of argument' you should of said 'the point of argument'

 

 

While I do agree that technical difficulties have an impact on the enjoyability aspect of a title...it's not the same as the integrity of the story..which I believe is what is being debated.

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I would most certainly say they are not interlinked. As I said, I played the original KotOR plenty of times. I knew every glitch in the game, of which there were plenty. They didn't detract from the overall story at all.

 

dont pick at threads of nothingness, its like me telling that when you sed 'a point of argument' you should of said 'the point of argument'

As someone who is not satisfied with the story, I would very much like to see what I am missing to make it something I can enjoy much more fully. My response is an attempt to keep this thread on track and civil, and not degrade into two parties calling "idiots" and "stupid newbs".

 

You are welcome to criticize my use of "a point of argument", but you would be incorrect to do so. There are multiple points being made, not just one.

 

As I said in my original post to this thread, tossing around insults in not the way an intelligent individual goes about pointing out the flaws in somebodies logic.

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no i agree, and neither is misquoting. if i had of sed stupid newb i would fully appreciate what you were saying. however i said ignorant, which in my mind the person was. also bear in mind that when you enter anything as a new member you cannot expect to put across a harsh point of view without negative feedback from more senior users. i expect you will call sum1 a newb at some point in the hope of putting them in their place.

 

everyone tosses around insults no matter how intelligent, the people who throw them around without an argument to back them up are the fools

 

enough arguing however, it is not productive, we shall agree to disagree. if you wish to pursue this further there is something called the pm function

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no i agree, and neither is misquoting. if i had of sed stupid newb i would fully appreciate what you were saying. however i said ignorant, which in my mind the person was. also bear in mind that when you enter anything as a new member you cannot expect to put across a harsh point of view without negative feedback from more senior users. i expect you will call sum1 a newb at some point in the hope of putting them in their place.

 

everyone tosses around insults no matter how intelligent, the people who throw them around without an argument to back them up are the fools

 

enough arguing however, it is not productive, we shall agree to disagree. if you wish to pursue this further there is something called the pm function

 

1) Punctuation and spelling are essential if you want to put across a good arguement.

 

2) Ignorant and stupid are synonymous. In other words they mean exactly the same thing. Both denote an absence of intelligence. You basically called him stupid.

 

im not a complete dumbass

 

 

r.b.r.

 

read

before

replying

 

 

3) I dont believe anyone called you a dumbass. Don't take offense at what somone never said nor insinuated. Furthermore, I firmly believe the kind gentleman read your post and responded coherantly.

 

As for the topic...

 

Technical support assumes the game itself is not working properly. The topic creator obviously has no problems playing the game from a technical standpoint, rendering the support forum useless to him.

 

He rather expresses the opinion that people play through the game too quickly and might have missed critical points in the story which is why many are dissatisfied with the story, a perfecly valid one insults aside. I might agree with him once I finish the game for myself : ) You never know.

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2) Ignorant and stupid are synonymous. In other words they mean exactly the same thing.  Both denote an absence of intelligence. You basically called him stupid.

Sorry in advanced, but this is just one of those buttons I have. :) Ignorance and stupidity are not that same.

 

Ignorance is the lack of knowledge. For example, I am totally ignorant when it comes to brain surgery. That does not make me stupid. Stupidity is the lack of intelligence, the tendancy for making the wrong choice, or being a slow learning.

 

However, as just pointed out, ignorance and stupidity are often seen as the same thing and it is unwise to call someone ignorant without the immediate ability to express your true meaning. Without that facility (such as a Internet message forum) meanings are lost and a discussion quickly degrade into "idiot" and "stupid newb". This was my original point -- not what was said, as Runs With Scissors never said "idiot", but what it turns into.

 

He rather expresses the opinion that people play through the game too quickly and might have missed critical points in the story which is why many are dissatisfied with the story, a perfecly valid one insults aside. I might agree with him once I finish the game for myself : ) You never know.

Indeed, a perfectly valid point that is made no less legitimate because it so happens to be his first post.

 

... and if you happen to agree when you are done MasterNeo, please fill me in on what I missed. :lol:

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I was very aware that the language I chose for my first post was indeed trollish, no, pure troll bait. However with the mild uproar over the last couple of days I felt that creating a good amount of contention on many levels would serve best in my attempt of getting people to look at the glass half full and not half empty when it comes to this title.

 

I won't get into the $hit about my post count, so what if I have a single post before this reply? Who knows who I am? I could be sitting in Napa playing with a *real* lightsaber for all YOU know.

 

Please, don't fling body waste around, stay on topic. Prove to me with your gaming experiance with this title that Obsidan really did screw up. My position is clear I feel, altho I will state it again; the story is emense. The plot is very well put together and the amount of replay value in this title is far beyond anything we've seen in quiet some time in any game.

 

edit // I had the idea for my first post in my head when I picked my screen name, does that help any?

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I was very aware that the language I chose for my first post was indeed trollish, no, pure troll bait. However with the mild uproar over the last couple of days I felt that creating a good amount of contention on many levels would serve best in my attempt of getting people to look at the glass half full and not half empty when it comes to this title.

 

I won't get into the $hit about my post count, so what if I have a single post before this reply? Who knows who I am? I could be sitting in Napa playing with a *real* lightsaber for all YOU know.

 

Please, don't fling body waste around, stay on topic. Prove to me with your gaming experiance with this title that Obsidan really did screw up. My position is clear I feel, altho I will state it again; the story is emense. The plot is very well put together and the amount of replay value in this title is far beyond anything we've seen in quiet some time in any game.

 

edit // I had the idea for my first post in my head when I picked my screen name, does that help any?

 

Clearly very few people have expressed they agree with your opinion (in regards to the gaming experience). Why does anyone have to prove to you anything? Have you even finished the game? Twice? If so, what changed that makes you think this game has a great amount of replay value?

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The story wasn't done sloppily, from what I can see... it brought up a lot of questions, and that was the purpose of it. It was more for a thinker than the first in the series was.

I, for one, liked the ending. I didn't like how limited character interaction was, and I was really wanting to do the bioware-ish story-telling with my NPC's. Story-wise, the influence system along with all the party interaction really made a big difference. In the first game, very little of your character interaction really fit into a flowing story. The whole system of the first game was very formulaic, with the companion quests - "Hey you, random NPC, so and so's on this planet!" - and the Star Maps. The second game mixes things up a lot more than the first one did, and is a lot more philosophical. In character interaction, you have to think a little bit about what motivates the person, and this adds a lot to what's there - even if what's there is less.

 

 

A lot of it seems to be a matter of expectations. As much as it saddens me, there's no way Obsidian would be able to exactly emulate the style of Bioware and still improve the experience. Not that Bioware is a bad developer, quite the contrary - but guessing isn't a reliable way to emulate another's work.

 

To me, the ending of KotOR II isn't worse than, say, PS: T. The intention of the dev's in this game wasn't exactly the same as it was in the first game; you might have to change your expectations to really understand what's there, because you might have missed something that's right under your nose, just because you're fixated on what you *didn't* get.

 

Myself, I'm resorting to speculation. It's what we did constantly with the first game, but this game brings up much deeper questions to be resolved.

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Clearly very few people have expressed they agree with your opinion (in regards to the gaming experience).  Why does anyone have to prove to you anything?  Have you even finished the game?  Twice?  If so, what changed that makes you think this game has a great amount of replay value?

 

*scratches head

 

No, my life is far too busy to of put 80++ hours into this title in the last week.

 

My playtime is not a relivent point in terms of accounted hours. In fact I believe that my taking it much slower than many people is primarly the point. I've noticed "issues" people have posted to this board I simply did not experiance. For instance, the whole speeder / power cell thing on Nar Shadda.

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Indeed. I look forward to you expanding on your argument based on the replies.

 

I welcome the opportunity to hear what I missed within the story which seemed to me to be extremely fragemented at the end. I've expressed some of my confusion in another thread. Some of which has been addressed, some which as not.

 

The story is immense indeed, but that does not take weight away from the simple truth that the story should stand on its own and not rely on any sidequests or optional dialogs. Such optional quests/dialogs should *add* to the story, not define it.

 

You're the one who (indirectly) made the point that I am an idiot and a sloth for not fully understanding the story at the end, and being dissatisfied at the end. I feel I've more then adequately pointed out that someone who takes their time with the quests and dialog, to understand the story, can be very dissatisfied at the end.

 

I enjoyed the character interaction and thought the story was fantastic... all the way up until I went to Dantooine the second time. At which point the plot twists created when I spoke to the Jedi Masters on Dantooine were quickly... not explained. The whos, whys and whats of why I should care about about flying to the next point was not there.

 

My playtime is not a relivent point in terms of accounted hours. In fact I believe that my taking it much slower than many people is primarly the point.  I've noticed "issues" people have posted to this board I simply did not experiance.  For instance, the whole speeder / power cell thing on Nar Shadda.

You playtime is very much relivent for the points you are making. You have not even reached the points people are dissatisfied with and you are criticizing them for their views on something you've never seen. You are insulting people who believe a book has a poor ending, when you are still in the first chapter.

 

The speeder / power cell quest, as I've said before, is an optional side quest. The solidification of the plot should not hinge on side quests.

 

I welcome the opportunity to be shown, with an intelligent exchange, what I missed that explains all the disjointed plot points within the game. I would very much like to play this game a second time and constantly have the opportunity to exclaim "ah-ha! I understand that now!"

I eagerly await.

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snip ..

 

To me, the ending of KotOR II isn't worse than, say, PS: T.  The intention of the dev's in this game wasn't exactly the same as it was in the first game; you might have to change your expectations to really understand what's there, because you might have missed something that's right under your nose, just because you're fixated on what you *didn't* get.

 

Myself, I'm resorting to speculation.  It's what we did constantly with the first game, but this game brings up much deeper questions to be resolved.

 

I read / heard somewhere that this series was much like the films, the story for KotOR III was written and ready but there was no way it could be done without doing other things first. Well that's sort of how the films ended up out of order, but anyways.

 

Ending of KotOR I IMHO blew chunks. Either it way like a 80's GI Joe afterschool episode or it was cliche DOOMDOOMDOOM here come's the baddies to cause you all kinds of pain and sufering! The MANY plot threads left dangling there did not get this much outcry.

 

but then again, I'm just one big walking cliche today so -- nightcleaver, getting back to my first rambling about the movies, if that rumor I heard / read is true then BioWare and Obsidian have things that they have to put into place for III. Having two different storytellers do the installments is pure genius is you think about the idea of the end game in being the third installment. The amount of matrial and "voices" that can be drawn from in speculation provide for, if executed well, an amasing title.

 

I also think I went into this title knowing full well that the "voices" where going to be much different and knowing that I was not setting myself up for a big letdown when there was not Bindo wisecracks "12, no wait! 13!" in the background but "voices" that demanded to be listened too and looked after to be heard.

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snip ...

 

The story is immense indeed, but that does not take weight away from the simple truth that the story should stand on its own and not rely on any sidequests or optional dialogs.  Such optional quests/dialogs should *add* to the story, not define it.

 

You're the one who (indirectly) made the point that I am an idiot and a sloth for not fully understanding the story at the end, and being dissatisfied at the end.  I feel I've more then adequately pointed out that someone who takes their time with the quests and dialog, to understand the story, can be very dissatisfied at the end.

 

I enjoyed the character interaction and thought the story was fantastic... all the way up until I went to Dantooine the second time.  At which point the plot twists created when I spoke to the Jedi Masters on Dantooine were quickly... not explained.  The whos, whys and whats of why I should care about about flying to the next point was not there.

 

Here is one of my core points. Just because things happen that make you pose a question and it is not answered in a cut scene or what have you, does this make for bad interactive story telling, or does it further the genre but requiring the player to think and not just click?

 

You playtime is very much relivent for the points you are making.  You have not even reached the points people are dissatisfied with and you are criticizing them for their views on something you've never seen.  You are insulting people who believe a book has a poor ending, when you are still in the first chapter.

 

 

I'm not criticizing anyone about their views, but their approch.

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If it is an *optional* side quest then yes! Requiring the player to complete an optional side quest or dialog in order to understand the stories *major* plotline is bad story telling (interactive or not). Requiring the player to complete an optional side quest or dialog in order to gain a more *in depth* understanding of the story, its characters and motivations, is good story telling.

 

You've pointed out that you lack the foundation to base your arguments on. You have not reached the points within the game people are dissatisfied about and therefor you do not know if their approach, if any different from your own, is at all flawed. When you reach those points and you can point back to a dialog (side quest, series of dialogs, or the combination of the two) which explains the gap, I will be very interested in the hearing about what I missed.

 

Ending of KotOR I IMHO blew chunks. Either it way like a 80's GI Joe afterschool episode or it was cliche DOOMDOOMDOOM here come's the baddies to cause you all kinds of pain and sufering! The MANY plot threads left dangling there did not get this much outcry.

I don't remember any plot threads that were left dangling at the end of KotOR1. Perhaps if you tell me what you are confused about I can help you with clearing those up. When you finished KotORII, if I still have questions, you can help me clear them up.

 

KotOR1 ended with "what next?". In the absence of a sequal the player could imagin what happens next. KotOR2 is also ended with a "what next?", but there is also a "what the...!?" as to what had just happened, what you had accomplished and why you had done it.

 

I have several examples of instances where a point is made, which is supposed to be relevant to my immediate situatation, and is never answered. Many of which happen toward the *end* of the game, some so late that you have no ability to converse with a party member or run off on a side quest that may hold the answer.

 

To use the movie analogies:

 

"Empire Strikes Back" is somewhat of a cliff-hanger, with several questions left unanswered. However, there is no confusion as to what the characters were trying to accomplish and why they were doing what they were doing in ESB. It is not required you see "Return of the Jedi" in order to understand ESB. All the immediate situations within the storyline are wrapped up, but you are left with a feeling of "what's next?". That's good story telling.

 

Matrix 2, created many questions, but forces you to watch the third movie to understand the motives of the characters during the past 2 hours. You are left with a feeling of "what the...!?". This is bad story telling.

 

It is the number of "what the...!?" threads that were left at the end of this game that I have a problem with. They have nothing to do with my lack of effort towards side quests, or "getting to know" my ship mates -- they are plot threads that are never truely addressed.

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Who were you confused about?

 

You were trying to save the galaxy, because it needed saving and you had the means.

 

Kreia was, well... we know what she was doing all along. Or at least I think I do. Ask me if that's your question.

 

Also, this IS an RPG - if you want to know what happens beyond the main plotline, as far as your NPC's motives, you have to figure it out for yourself. If that's at all part of what you're talking about. I thought this game did a pretty good job of explaining that, though...

 

I, personally, am left with a feeling of, "What next?", not, "What the heck just happened?" Were you confused about who the true antagonist was? That's easy enough to clear up...

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