Filling in the plot holes at the end...

[Tasthius]

Additionally, everyone, including the Masters, comments on how strong you are in the Force. Wouldn't that make you more powerful, or at the very least, equal to Revan?

 

Not entirely true. If you recall when you first get off the Ebon Hawk on Dantooine, the protocol droid standing at the landing pad has a holo recording of a conversation between Vrook and Vandar about you. You have to repair the droid and then ask him to play the recording for you. This is a recording of a period during your training on Dantooine, before you were exiled. Anyway, in this recording, Vrook is telling Vandar "I disagree with you, I think that "insert your PC's name" is a very mediocre Jedi." Vrook was obviously less than impressed with your abilities, and it seems that when you were in training that you had a hard time following orders. During the game I do realize that the masters comment on how strong you are, but I have a feeling this is only because of the force bond with Kreia. In other words, you are like two Jedi in one.

 

 

I imagine that the Sith teachings Revan studied on Malachor referred to the Rakatans and the Star Forge.

 

Maybe or maybe not. I wouldn't bet the house on this one. If you do, then you may be following a shadow for the entire journey and be totally on the wrong track about the story at the end. Kreia mentions in the game that she was a historian /student of the ancient Jedi and Sith. Surely in the long history of the force, there were other powers and enigmas that be besides the Rakatan. Besides, when asked during the game how Revan ammassed "such a large fleet in such short order" Kreia responds "I do not know exactly." Why would she lie about that? It's certainly possible, as you suggest, that Revan was corrupted "on the outer rim" by Kreia, but why then would she deny knowledge of the star forge? It seemed nobody in the game knew anything about the Star forge, including Goto. I see no reason for Kreia to keep knowledge of the former existance of star forge from your PC in the game, especially when the Star Forge has long been destroyed.

 

 

In addition, Kreia implies that she was Revan's first Master, and I believe she says that at the end of Revan's training (which coincides with the end of the Mandalorian Wars?), Revan returned to his/her original Master. Presumably, Kreia was already on Malachor and had already established the Trayus Academy, since she does acknowledge her participation in the Mandalorian Wars, which would explain her presence on Malachor.

 

I don't know about this. I gathered that Kreia was not Revan's first master, but rather was someone he/she turned to AFTER he/she completed his/her training on Dantooine/Corsucant when he/she wanted to learn deeper mysteries of the force that the Jedi simply could not provide him/her. I think of Kreia and her teachings as Revan's "graduate studies" in the force.

 

By teaching Revan about the Star Forge, Kreia could have begun leading Revan down a dark path, without Revan necessarily realizing it. Perhaps Kreia knew that Revan would be overcome by the Star Forge, and subsequently, become Kreia's apprentice. At the beginning of KotOR, Revan had already been defeated by Malak. This implies that Sion and Nihilus already rejected Kreia, but because they chose to remain in "the shadows," Revan became the Dark Lord.

 

Why does this imply anything about Sion or Nihilus?

 

I tend to disagree with the whole star forge situation though. I think Obsidian wanted to take this story in a totally different direction and didn't want to be stuck having to progress the whole "star forge" angle any further. The only similiarities between part I and II that I see is the fact that they both speak of Revan a lot (and Malak and a few others here and there). Of course, my interpretation could be a result of my possible misunderstanding of the story (as it is convoluted at times), but if Kreia hates the force so much (and I gathered that was her sole motivation -- hating the force), then why would she teach Revan of an instrument that is powered by the same element she hates? That is, why teach Revan of the Star Forge (which is full of DS energy) if she loathes the whole concept of the force? This is my main line of thought for thinking Kreia wasn't responsible for introducing Revan to the Star Forge, but about something we have yet to discover in the series. Revan, as Kreia says, was a prodigious student of the histories and could have very well uncovered the Star Forge on his/her own.

 

However, when conflating KotOR II with the Star Wars canon, it makes sense that, if the Exile chooses to continue a life with the ability to feel the Force, s/he re-establishes the Order. By the time of the Clone Wars, the Jedi were once again in good standing with the Republic, so someone had to have convinced the rest of the galaxy that Jedi = good. Finally, the Sith were believed to be non-existent, which reinforces the possibillity that the Exile restores the Order.

 

It all depends on how you define "Sith." According to the Star Wars EU, the original Sith were a race and not an ideal. Are true, original Sith non-existent or is merely the "religion" in a state of abeyance?

 

In the end (Part III), I think we will discover that whatever it was Revan was fighting at the "edge of the galaxy" will be something unrelated to Kreia or the Star Forge. I think this is the reason Revan did not have a larger role in the game and did not make a single physical appearance. I think the Devs knew they couldn't "do away" with the Revan angle, but didn't want their own story to be too heavily influenced by a character they didn't create. This is why Revan is simply "away at the edge of the galaxy" so that in case a different developer does part III, they can take that part of the story in any direction they choose. Proof of that is by mere virtue of the fact we are arguing over what Revan was doing on the outer rim! :cool: This part of the story was left wide open for either Obsidian or a new developer to take in any direction they choose. Obsidian could take the story in the direction of Kreia or the Star Forge (as you suggest) or take it into uncharted waters.

----------

 

 

--Why was Malachor a cultural taboo to the Mandalorians?

 

Wondered that myself. A bigger question for me was what was the deal with Canderous/Mandalore and Kreia cutting a deal behind the Exile's back on Dxun? Remember the cut-scene on Dxun just before the Sith attack? Apparently Kreia already had cut a deal with Mandalore and he was part of the "plan" (whatever it was) in some fashion. Any ideas on this? I have my own, but am curious what others may think.

 

--What were you doing on the Harbinger in the first place?

 

I took it that Carth/other admiral was wanting to keep you safe or put you under protection because of something they though Revan may be uncovering on the outer rim. It's possible they thought that you were the entire key for unraveling the mystery of what Revan may be up to. I guess they thought your ability to cut yourself off from the force was an ability they felt pertinent to unraveling the mystery of what this "shadow" force was all about. I took it that you were on your way to Telos when Sion attacked the Harbinger and then Kreia rescued you on the Ebon Hawk. I am still a little confused though on the whole Sion/Kreia angle and why they were at odds over you, but yet when they met on the Harbinger they seemed to be working together, or at least, not on extremely bad terms (even though he did chop her hand off).

 

--Another reason I believe Revan is dead is because I can't imagine him/her giving up the Ebon Hawk without a fight. Nor can I see Revan putting it up for collateral in a pazaak game. So how did Kreia end up with it? Unless Revan did bet the Hawk on pazaak and lost to Kreia.

 

Either Kreia was working with Revan (or working with him on the surface but really had ulterior motives he/she wasn't aware of), or Revan simply ditched or lost the Ebon Hawk for some reason. Either way, I doubt Revan is dead. Obsidian obviously left the whole Revan angle open for part III.

 

 

--Why does Vrook tell you that he's unfamiliar with Force bonds (isn't that what he said?), when that was the premise of reviving Revan in KotOR?

 

He doesn't say he is unfamiliar with them, he simply says he doesn't know a whole lot about them and has never heard of such a "strong" bond as you describe. Then again, all the masters said the same thing, so obviously Kreia has some knowledge they don't have due to her years of esoteric Jedi study.

 

--Nihilus attacks Citadel Station with a Sith fleet, doesn't he? So why is Azkul a merc? Also, if he was trained at "Malak's Academy," wouldn't he have Force powers?

 

I took it that Azkul was part of that "elite unit" that Atton was a part of -- you know the one that Malak and Revan trained to kill jedi, even though members of the unit were not Jedi themselves. This is the secret Atton was keeping from you, and I took it that Azkul was also a member (or leader) of one of those units. As for Azkul being a merc for Nihilus, I took it that he was there sorta involuntarily, like those zombiefied dudes on the bridge. The Ravager was supposed to be somewhat of a "Flying Duthman" or ghost ship -- the walking dead.

[DrSpock]

I think a lot of people are trying to create stories in their own minds to fill in the holes. I'm sorry, but you're not supposed to have to create your own stories to make a game complete. Kreia using breath control to pretend dead seems like a stretch. For what reason would she need to pretend?

 

Personally as I was trying to figure out the "twist" of the game while playing through it (which never came) I thought it would be that in the end it would be revealed you and Kreia had died together on Malachor 5, that that was the reason you were bonded and that was the reason you were a hole in the force, and like Sion, your affinity to the force kept you alive. However, since this is not what happened, I'm not going to claim that this is the explanation for the problems in the storyline. This game is incomplete and sloppy, and that's just the simple logic of it.

 

Oh, and for whoever said that Revan learned about the Star Forge on Malachor 5; he did not, because if you played the last game you would recall that he and Malak follow the various Star Maps to find it. I'm really not all that sure that Revan finding this academy, as claimed in this game, is consistent with the facts from the last game.

 

Also, I don't think Lucasarts is in the slighest way to blame for the condition the game was released in. As any gamer knows, games are delayed constantly from what their original release dates were supposed to be. I am sure if Obsidian wanted they could have told Lucasarts they need more time and forced another 6-8 months of development. Publishers always set early release dates, after all they wanted it out in time for the holidays. I think Obsidian was greedy, plain and simple, and they knew crappy game or good game they were going to make a load of money, and there would almost certainly be a 3rd one in the series.

[Darth_Radnor]

I personally don't understand what these "true" sith are. If they mean the race of Sith who weren't just followers of the ideal, that would clash with the Tales of the Jedi comic books, where every single true Sith was killed except for Naga Sadow and his followers, who landed on Yavin 4. Sadow then "hibernated" for 600 years or so while his followers degenerated into the Masssassi. Later, Freedon Nadd came to Yavin and learned from Sadow, but they make it unclear as to what happened to Sadow. We know that Exar Kun controlled the Massassi, but they were all wiped out following the events of the Sith War. If Sadow survived, it is doubtful that he could have built a huge empire within the course of 400 years. It is doubtful that he survived, because as far as Sith teachings go, the apprentice is supposed to kill the master if they are stronger than the masters, and if Nadd was stronger, he would probably have killed Sadow.

 

Another qualm I have are the Sith holocrons in Atris' room. Once again, according to the TOTJ comic books, there was only one Sith holocron left after the events of the Great Hyperspace War, and Exar Kun stole it and destroyed it, embedding its power to corrupt Jedi apprentices on Yavin 4. So what's Atris doing with 100 Sith holocrons?

[Ostkant]

Malachor 5 explains a lot of things. It affected so many things. It killed a lot of people, basically everyone you meet was there. It is the reason you became 'deaf' to the Force. The death of so many people.

 

They explained it in the game, that you could create places dead in the Force, and wars were the real way to do that. That's what happened at Malachor, and Revan knew how to do this.

 

I have so extremely much to say, but I don't have the time. I learned a lot from beating the game on LS and DS.

 

Also, Revan went to the Unknown Regions, not the Outer Rim.

[Ostkant]

Azkul was trained at Malak's Academy, most likely for elite units or special units.

 

Kreia wasn't the only master Revan had, Revan had many masters, but as I read, it seemed that Revan returned to Kreia after KOTOR 1 but before KOTOR 2. Lastly her, I think.

 

And again, Revan went to the Unknown Regions, not the Outer Rim.

 

Also, I believe Nihilus was just a man, like Visas said. Not anyone special, just a soldier. He was at Malachor when everybody there died, and he along with the Exile escaped the shadow-generator, Nihilus used the Ravager to escape. Both of them survived it - the death of so many caused them both to be "deafened" to the Force, rendering them both as wounds in the Force.

 

This is why both of them rely on others to gain power. This is not speculation, this is what I learned from the game after beating it twice on LS and DS.

 

Sion did most likely get heavily wounded in Malachor, as for Kreia I don't know.

 

Also Nihilus used the remnants of the Sith fleet in his assault(s), and everyone that came near him (or probably on the same planet) could greatly feel his presence and would quickly by consumed by his power of the Dark side. This is how he got so many people on his side, he would all brainwash them. He did this with General Vaklu and that guy that returns on the Ravager after you thought you killed him in the Palace (though Kreia revives him).

 

Ask me questions, I have answered so many of my own questions just by beating the game twice, I can most likely help anyone understand.

[Master Veq-Riin]

I think a lot of people are trying to create stories in their own minds to fill in the holes. I'm sorry, but you're not supposed to have to create your own stories to make a game complete.

This is exactly what I said in my first post. Players shouldn't have to guess. But it's human nature to want resolution, which is why I think some people are creating their own stories. Besides, it's fun.

 

 

Kreia using breath control to pretend dead seems like a stretch. For what reason would she need to pretend?

Because she didn't want anyone in the mining facility to find her? They'd ask too many questions.

 

Personally as I was trying to figure out the "twist" of the game  while playing through it (which never came) I thought it would be that in the end it would be revealed you and Kreia had died together on Malachor 5, that that was the reason you were bonded and that was the reason you were a hole in the force, and like Sion, your affinity to the force kept you alive.

I thought this, as well. When my PC asks, "What happens now," and Kreia says, "The Apprentice must kill the Master," I thought it meant that even though I was LS for the whole game, it seemed that I was deluded the entire time and was fated to be DS. That ending might have even been better, actually.

 

 

However, since this is not what happened, I'm not going to claim that this is the explanation for the problems in the storyline. This game is incomplete and sloppy, and that's just the simple logic of it.

Is any logic truly simple?

 

Oh, and for whoever said that Revan learned about the Star Forge on Malachor 5; he did not, because if you played the last game you would recall that he and Malak follow the various Star Maps to find it. I'm really not all that sure that Revan finding this academy, as claimed in this game, is consistent with the facts from the last game.

That would have been me. I do recall that she and Malak searched for the Star Maps in order to find the Star Forge. What I meant was that perhaps Revan learned of its existence while on Malachor V.

 

As for Revan finding the Academy, well, who knows? If you played the last game, you'd recall that Carth said that "something corrupted Revan" out there--maybe Obsidian's answer is Trayus Academy.

 

Also, I don't think Lucasarts is in the slighest way to blame for the condition the game was released in. As any gamer knows, games are delayed constantly from what their original release dates were supposed to be. I am sure if Obsidian wanted they could have told Lucasarts they need more time and forced another 6-8 months of development. Publishers always set early release dates, after all they wanted it out in time for the holidays. I think Obsidian was greedy, plain and simple, and they knew crappy game or good game they were going to make a load of money, and there would almost certainly be a 3rd one in the series.

I don't consider myself a gamer because I don't play very many, and this is the first Obsidian game I've played, so I don't know if they were being greedy about just this game, or all of their games.

[Ostkant]

I must encourage people to read my recently edited post, I don't want it go to waste - read and might you find answers!

 

I have to go play KOTOR 2 now.

[Master Veq-Riin]

Excellent points, Tanthius--thank you! To continue the discussion...

 

I obviously couldn't get the quote thing to work right, and I'll be happy to edit this, I'm just not sure how. I had to leave out my answer that the Sith I refer to in the Clone Wars Era was the ideal, not the race.

 

Not entirely true.  If you recall when you first get off the Ebon Hawk on Dantooine, the protocol droid standing at the landing pad has a holo recording of a conversation between Vrook and Vandar about you.  You have to repair the droid and then ask him to play the recording for you.  This is a recording of a period during your training on Dantooine, before you were exiled.  Anyway, in this recording, Vrook is telling Vandar "I disagree with you, I think that "insert your PC's name" is a very mediocre Jedi."  Vrook was obviously less than impressed with your abilities, and it seems that when you were in training that you had a hard time following orders.  During the game I do realize that the masters comment on how strong you are, but I have a feeling this is only because of the force bond with Kreia.  In other words, you are like two Jedi in one.

Yes, I remember this recording. I also remember thinking (because in my own mind at that point, I was still in my "Revan" character): "I knew he never liked me." In retrospect, I don't think he liked either of the two.

 

But after successfully conquering the mercs (as LS), doesn't Vrook acknowledge how strong in the Force you really are? Maybe Vandar and the other Masters didn't realize this, either, at the time of the recording?

 

Maybe or maybe not.  I wouldn't bet the house on this one.  If you do, then you may be following a shadow for the entire journey and be totally on the wrong track about the story at the end.  Kreia mentions in the game that she was a historian /student of the ancient Jedi and Sith.  Surely in the long history of the force, there were other powers and enigmas that be besides the Rakatan. 

Yes, this is a tough one. I do remember Kreia saying that, and now that I think about it, the Masters in KotOR tell the PC that Revan also studied Jedi history. (Maybe that's why you couldn't access the archives in the Enclave?)

 

The reason I came to this conclusion, which of course, is just one of many possible theories, is because in KotOR, the Rakatans were portrayed as having such a powerful empire that no one was able to surpass it once the information (the Star Maps, perhaps) about the Star Forge was concealed. On the other hand, we aren't given a timeline for when the Rakatan empire was in its golden age, but my guess is that it was before the Great Hyperspace War, since KotOR takes place 1,000 years after that.

 

Besides, when asked during the game how Revan ammassed "such a large fleet in such short order" Kreia responds "I do not know exactly."  Why would she lie about that?  It's certainly possible, as you suggest, that Revan was corrupted "on the outer rim" by Kreia, but why then would she deny knowledge of the star forge?  It seemed nobody in the game knew anything about the Star forge, including Goto.  I see no reason for Kreia to keep knowledge of the former existance of star forge from your PC in the game, especially when the Star Forge has long been destroyed.

I did notice her evasiveness over this issue, and agree that neither Kreia nor Goto seemed aware of the Star Forge. If based on my premise that Kreia's quest was for truth, then you're certainly right--there wouldn't be a reason she'd lie to your PC.

 

However, since the Star Forge was destroyed five years prior, wouldn't Goto know about it? He would be more likely to lie, and given his position in "galactic economics," how he could he not know about this Republic historical event? The PC doesn't know about it because s/he was in exile somewhere, which could also explain why Kreia doesn't know, but since Goto is a powerful crimelord, he'd have to know. Or if he didn't, based on his characterization, I'm convinced he would have done research.

 

I guess it depends on whether or not the Republic reported the existence and subsequent destruction of the Star Forge to the galaxy; I suppose they could have attributed the mass production of Malak's fleet to something else. Since the Star Forge was "Force-powered," maybe the Senate wanted to keep that from the Republic's citizens because of the negative attitude towards anyone able to wield the Force. But now I'm afraid I'm starting to slip into a conspiracy theory, so I'll stop.

 

By teaching Revan about the Star Forge, Kreia could have begun leading Revan down a dark path, without Revan necessarily realizing it. Perhaps Kreia knew that Revan would be overcome by the Star Forge, and subsequently, become Kreia's apprentice. At the beginning of KotOR, Revan had already been defeated by Malak. This implies that Sion and Nihilus already rejected Kreia, but because they chose to remain in "the shadows," Revan became the Dark Lord.

 

Why does this imply anything about Sion or Nihilus?

This isn't very well articulated, is it?

 

When do you suppose the Trayus Academy was established--before or after the the Battle of Malachor? It's a safe bet, isn't it, that this was Kreia's brainchild--Trayus, Darth Traya? So, did Sion and Nihilus fight in the Mandalorian Wars?

 

This leads me back to the question of power between Revan and your PC--why is it that you're the one to whom Atton, anyway, ascribes the destruction of not just Malachor, but the entire Mandalorian race? Why not Revan? Even Goto and HK hint that this was all your doing. Pfft--everyone blames Peragus on you, so why not Malachor, too? With HK and Goto, however, it's only what I read between the lines, so it's possible that I'm wrong because the dialogue left too much out. It's one thing to hint, but shouldn't there be a resolution later, that the protagonist stumbles upon him/herself?

 

I tend to disagree with the whole star forge situation though.  I think Obsidian wanted to take this story in a totally different direction and didn't want to be stuck having to progress the whole "star forge" angle any further.  The only similiarities between part I and II that I see is the fact that they both speak of Revan a lot (and Malak and a few others here and there).

And therein lies the problem, don't you think? The intertextuality in KotOR II should be seamless, which it more likely would have been if the original writers had a hand in the new script. Unfortunately, I don't know the extent of BioWare's participation in the development of KotOR II, or if they were involved at all.

 

One of the things that fascinates me about the EU is how so many different authors are able to contribute and keep story arcs going. The most recent examples of this that I've read is Barbara Hambly's Children of the Jedi followed by Kevin J. Anderson's Champions of the Force, neither of which I liked but that's another story, and Dark Horse's ongoing Republic and Empire series. The collaboration and sharing of notes/ideas behind the scenes is apparent. The EU isn't without inconsistencies (Boba Fett), but considering the amount of literature in the canon, LucasBooks has done an amazing job. So what gives, LucasArts?

 

 

Of course, my interpretation could be a result of my possible misunderstanding of the story (as it is convoluted at times), but if Kreia hates the force so much (and I gathered that was her sole motivation -- hating the force), then why would she teach Revan of an instrument that is powered by the same element she hates?  That is, why teach Revan of the Star Forge (which is full of DS energy) if she loathes the whole concept of the force?  This is my main line of thought for thinking Kreia wasn't responsible for introducing Revan to the Star Forge, but about something we have yet to discover in the series.  Revan, as Kreia says, was a prodigious student of the histories and could have very well uncovered the Star Forge on his/her own.

Yes, I agree with you that Revan may have learned about the Star Forge on his/her own. But as for Kreia hating the Force, which I didn't completely understand either ("Then why do you use it?" "Because it's like a poison." ), I don't think she felt this way until she found out about the Exile and how s/he is able to live without the Force, that is, without having that "sixth sense." Having the ability to feel others' deaths and the living's thoughts without being able to shut them out would certainly be overwhelming and drive anyone crazy (kind of like Streen, in the Jedi Academy Trilogy). Maybe that's why Kreia hates it?

 

In the end (Part III), I think we will discover that whatever it was Revan was fighting at the "edge of the galaxy" will be something unrelated to Kreia or the Star Forge.  I think this is the reason Revan did not have a larger role in the game and did not make a single physical appearance.  I think the Devs knew they couldn't "do away" with the Revan angle, but didn't want their own story to be too heavily influenced by a character they didn't create.  This is why Revan is simply "away at the edge of the galaxy" so that in case a different developer does part III, they can take that part of the story in any direction they choose.  Proof of that is by mere virtue of the fact we are arguing over what Revan was doing on the outer rim!  :cool: This part of the story was left wide open for either Obsidian or a new developer to take in any direction they choose.  Obsidian could take the story in the direction of Kreia or the Star Forge (as you suggest) or take it into uncharted waters.

Is it certain there will be a part III? If so, then I hope they compare notes, whether or not Obsidian or someone else does it!

 

I am, however, impressed with the way Obsidian handled the male/female Revan issue. There were huge flame wars over Revan's gender in the BioWare forums, which Obsidian has hopefully extinguished. Still, it remains problematic if a KotOR III were to use Revan as the PC, in terms of character development for the supporting roles. If you're male, will Bastila be around? If you're female, will it be Carth (yes!)? Then again, I'm not a developer so I have no idea how they program what's spawned and what isn't.

[Master Veq-Riin]

Previous questions answered? unanswered?

 

--What were you doing on the Harbinger in the first place?

 

I took it that Carth/other admiral was wanting to keep you safe or put you under protection because of something they though Revan may be uncovering on the outer rim. It's possible they thought that you were the entire key for unraveling the mystery of what Revan may be up to. I guess they thought your ability to cut yourself off from the force was an ability they felt pertinent to unraveling the mystery of what this "shadow" force was all about. I took it that you were on your way to Telos when Sion attacked the Harbinger and then Kreia rescued you on the Ebon Hawk. I am still a little confused though on the whole Sion/Kreia angle and why they were at odds over you, but yet when they met on the Harbinger they seemed to be working together, or at least, not on extremely bad terms (even though he did chop her hand off).

The Council was tight-lipped about your ability to sever yourself from the Force, so I don't think Carth could have known about this. Maybe you can clarify: the "shadow" force or "greater threat" that Revan perceived is Sion and Nihilus, right? Also, was this a pre- or post-Star Forge revelation on Revan's part? Because if it's post-Star Forge, wouldn't that presume that Revan was LS at the end of KotOR? Or does this have to do with Revan still "saving" the Republic even though s/he became a Sith?

 

--Another reason I believe Revan is dead is because I can't imagine him/her giving up the Ebon Hawk without a fight. Nor can I see Revan putting it up for collateral in a pazaak game. So how did Kreia end up with it? Unless Revan did bet the Hawk on pazaak and lost to Kreia.

 

Either Kreia was working with Revan (or working with him on the surface but really had ulterior motives he/she wasn't aware of), or Revan simply ditched or lost the Ebon Hawk for some reason. Either way, I doubt Revan is dead. Obsidian obviously left the whole Revan angle open for part III.

I was kidding. However, I don't think that Revan, especially a female Revan, would have just ditched the ship, considering how attached Carth is to it ("a little battered but it was still home"). But that isn't a surprise, is it, because Carth is so mushy and whiny.

 

--Why does Vrook tell you that he's unfamiliar with Force bonds (isn't that what he said?), when that was the premise of reviving Revan in KotOR?

 

He doesn't say he is unfamiliar with them, he simply says he doesn't know a whole lot about them and has never heard of such a "strong" bond as you describe. Then again, all the masters said the same thing, so obviously Kreia has some knowledge they don't have due to her years of esoteric Jedi study.

OK, but in both KotORs, Vrook strikes me as a big hypocrite. Why is he so secretive to Revan and the Exile? Does/Did he have an ultierior motive? Like killing the Exile in KotORII?

[Master Veq-Riin]

Kreia wasn't the only master Revan had, Revan had many masters, but as I read, it seemed that Revan returned to Kreia after KOTOR 1 but before KOTOR 2. Lastly her, I think.

So Kreia wasn't Revan's first Master? Considering how s/he turned out, and that the Council refused to blame the Masters' Jedi pedagogy as the reason why some of the Jedi fell during the time of the Mandalorian Wars, this is an important point. But probably not worth pursuing.

 

Also, I believe Nihilus was just a man, like Visas said. Not anyone special, just a soldier. He was at Malachor when everybody there died, and he along with the Exile escaped the shadow-generator, Nihilus used the Ravager to escape. Both of them survived it - the death of so many caused them both to be "deafened" to the Force, rendering them both as wounds in the Force.

 

This is why both of them rely on others to gain power. This is not speculation, this is what I learned from the game after beating it twice on LS and DS.

Thanks for the info. But how did the Exile escape? On the Ravager, too? Or do I find out if I play DS? Also, was Nihilus a Republic soldier, or a Jedi?

[stoffe -mkb-]

The reason I came to this conclusion, which of course, is just one of many possible theories, is because in KotOR, the Rakatans were portrayed as having such a powerful empire that no one was able to surpass it once the information (the Star Maps, perhaps) about the Star Forge was concealed.  On the other hand, we aren't given a timeline for when the Rakatan empire was in its golden age, but my guess is that it was before the Great Hyperspace War, since KotOR takes place 1,000 years after that.

 

According to what you learn on Dantooine and Kashyyk in the first game, the Rakatan Infinite Empire predates the Republic with more than 5000 years.

 

In the Dantooine ruins, the ancient droid says it has been more than 10 revolutions around the star by the system's outermost planet since it last saw a builder, which Bastila explains would take more than 20 000 years.

 

On Kashyyk, the computer by the star map reveals that the rakatan agricultural reformation device malfunctioned 241 years after it last had any communication with the Builders (the Rakata), which was 29,642 years ago.

 

And this was likely during the collapse of the Infinite Empire, placing their "golden age" earlier than that. Though apparently the Infinite Empire collapsed rather quickly once it began its fall, as the Star Forge drained the entire Rakatan race of their Force connection, making them unable to maintain their empire since much of their technology was Force powered. Then it caused them turn on each other in a bloody Civil War, and a plague finished off what was left of them.

 

The Infinite Empire was described as being made up of 500 systems and more than a trillion beings (most of them enslaved races) at its peak.

[Master Veq-Riin]

According to what you learn on Dantooine and Kashyyk in the first game, the Rakatan Infinite Empire predates the Republic with more than 5000 years.

 

[...]

So then it is possible that the Sith teachings Revan studied on Malachor consisted of the Rakatans and the Star Forge, which is the conclusion of mine that you cite. It's also possible that Kreia wouldn't have known about this--why would Revan tell her? Regardless of where Revan learned of the Inifinite Empire and all its trappings, I'm still at a loss as to why Goto doesn't know about the Star Forge, which was where this was headed.

 

Thanks for the info, btw! After a while, I skipped through the Rakatan history lessons in the first game. :D

[Lumenadducere]

*bump*

 

So people who are still confused can read this and (maybe) get some peace of mind.

 

Key word there is maybe.

[DrSpock]

Just to clarify...

 

I thought better of Kreia using breath control to pretend dead. Besides seeming like a stretch to me, breath control doesn't stop you from being alive. You would still have a heartbeat and pulse and a temperature and still require nutrition. Obviously, Kreia wasn't pretending dead and this is an unanswered hole in the plot.

 

Also, this thread has been fun and all, but it's absolutely HUGE now, owing in no small part to the very long reactions people have; I think maybe it's time to close this one down and start up a part 2?

[Ostkant]

So Kreia wasn't Revan's first Master? Considering how s/he turned out, and that the Council refused to blame the Masters' Jedi pedagogy as the reason why some of the Jedi fell during the time of the Mandalorian Wars, this is an important point. But probably not worth pursuing.

 

If she was his first master is something I do not know for sure, but what I do know for sure is that Revan went to different Masters for advice and all that, but as I understand it Revan visited Kreia mostly, both before and after his time as a Sith Lord.

 

I think Nihilus was one of the many Jedi that left the Order to fight in the Mandalorian Wars by Revan's side.

 

Thanks for the info. But how did the Exile escape? On the Ravager, too? Or do I find out if I play DS? Also, was Nihilus a Republic soldier, or a Jedi?

 

The Ravager is a Republic ship (or atleast WAS) because it is said when you board the Ravager that it still has 'Mandalorian fire wounds' or something similar. I cannot remember too clearly but it's a clear indication that the ship had been shot by Mandalorians. Also on Malachor you find "broken Republic ship" places, and on the inside they all look like the Ravager looked inside.

 

So this fact pretty much confirms that Nihilus fought with the Republic along with all the other fallen Jedi that followed Revan and Malak to war, all those Jedi that left the Order to fight in the Mandalorian Wars - Nihilus was a Jedi, to answer your questions.

 

I don't know how the Exile escaped, but he simply did. I suspect that the ship you find Sion meditating in is the ship he escaped with, though that's a bit of a wild guess.

 

How he did it and with what ship isn't important for me though.

 

Trayus Academy fed upon all the deaths that had occured at the same time right there near it, and it drove all Force Sensitives there. It calls out them, makes them really feel the Dark side, and turns them to the Dark side. Sion is most likely also an ex-Jedi that fought under Revan's command in the Mandalorian Wars, like Nihilus and the Exile - like so many others. Kreia was drawn to Trayus Academy along with Sion and Nihilus and other people (all the Sith in the Academy) and the three of them learned of the secrets of the academy, not sure if those were the only ones though.

 

Sion learned Pain,

Nihilus learned Hunger,

Kreia learned Betrayal.

 

This says on the loading screens.

 

Revan also turned so many people to his/her side by using the power of the Trayus Academy. Those that Revan had captured had the choice to get turned to his side or simply die - we all know what choice was the most popular one.

 

Most people would do themselves a great favor by reading this post, I hold the answers to many questions.

[GarethCarrots]

hahaha love that last sentence!

[Aaron Contreras]

So this fact pretty much confirms that Nihilus fought with the Republic along with all the other fallen Jedi that followed Revan and Malak to war, all those Jedi that left the Order to fight in the Mandalorian Wars - Nihilus was a Jedi, to answer your questions.

 

Nope. Nihilus obtained the Ravager at Malachor. He didn't follow Revan or Malak. He comes from Elsewhere.

[Ostkant]

Then I assume he was some sort of Force sensitive that was drawn to Malachor, but you cannot say for sure that he didn't follow Revan.

 

Gareth, what do you mean? Is this your way of telling me that last sentence is stupid? I'm just saying I can help people understand the story of KOTOR 2, or atleast attempt to answer their questions regarding KOTOR 2.

[envida]

So this fact pretty much confirms that Nihilus fought with the Republic along with all the other fallen Jedi that followed Revan and Malak to war, all those Jedi that left the Order to fight in the Mandalorian Wars - Nihilus was a Jedi, to answer your questions.

Nope. Nihilus obtained the Ravager at Malachor. He didn't follow Revan or Malak. He comes from Elsewhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nope Nihilus died at Malachor and was reborn at Malachor, it says so in the game....

[TentamusDarkblade]

Also, I don't think Lucasarts is in the slighest way to blame for the condition the game was released in. As any gamer knows, games are delayed constantly from what their original release dates were supposed to be. I am sure if Obsidian wanted they could have told Lucasarts they need more time and forced another 6-8 months of development.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

 

man, you have no idea how the game industry works do you?

[Jedi_Master_Darkor]

Also, I don't think Lucasarts is in the slighest way to blame for the condition the game was released in. As any gamer knows, games are delayed constantly from what their original release dates were supposed to be. I am sure if Obsidian wanted they could have told Lucasarts they need more time and forced another 6-8 months of development.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

 

man, you have no idea how the game industry works do you?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Lucasarts messed up. They set a definite deadline. They screwed up. The result: a bad ending.

[Brutus]

Just finished the game for the first time with my third character. The first two playthroughs were abandoned because of plot-breaking bugs.

 

The ending was just astonishingly bad, moreso because it seems a desperate and pathetic attempt to tie together a non-existent plot.

 

I suppose that story doesn't really matter so much to game sales, and if there is a KOTOR3 the sales will be strong. But I certainly do wonder where they dig up their writers, or if perhaps a bunch of designers just brainstorm random ideas and hang them together on a threadbare continuity.

 

That's not to even mention how bug-infested it is.

 

KOTOR1 was far, far better. This game will not be played again.

[Ostkant]

That is too bad, Brutus. I am on my third time through KOTOR 2, seems like I never get tired of it. The same goes for KOTOR 1, that's some great replay value.

[Mellypie]

1) Darth Nihilis.  His point in the story was... what?  Sure I *thought* he was the new Lord of the Sith, or something similar, which was causing all this trouble.  When you run into him, he is nothing.  What he is, why he is doing what he is, his background with Visas (and her background with him)... never explained.  He just ends up being nothing other then one more person I have to kill.

If you'll notice he tries to drain the PC of the Force or life force which ever you wish to call it, during the battle which exhausts him. That is why he is so easy to kill. If you talk to Visas enough she says that when her master killed everything on Katarr, her homeplanet, she was the only one left alive. That is why he didn't kill her. It's obvious to me that he was using her to find force sensitives for him to feed off of with her special gifts. Also Nihilis is a failed experiment of Kriea's I think perhaps either he was at Malachor and the same thing happened to him that happened to the Exile or Kriea attempted to recreate what happened to the exile but failed.

 

2) Darth Sion.  Led to believe he is in charge of a different sect of Sith.  See him, along with Nihilis, defeat Kreia in a cut scene and watch him cut off her hand.  Only to suddenly be Kreia's student again... what!?

Another of Kriea's failures in the fact that he didn't kill her not once but twice. The reason... he wants to be excepted by Kriea and has failed because he could not kill her. So he falls back into the hole of being her student instead of becoming the master.

 

3) Atris.  I spoke with Atris at the end, getting a dialog option to the effect of "You have fallen to the Dark Side, you must realize that" -- when I myself haven't realized that.  We see (or hear about) her 4 times.  (1) at the beginning, no indication she has fallen.  (2) Kreia talks about her, with no indication she has fallen or is heading down that path.  (3) The second time we see her, *bam* we suddenly know she has somehow fallen.  (4) At the end when Kreia talks about having to stop Atris' teachings... huh? ...exactly what teachings are these?

 

Atris... when you first meet her she assumes you are there to kiss her butt and beg for forgiveness. She says she is the last of the Jedi when she knows very well that Vrook, Kavar and company are still alive. Atris also is the one that leaked your name to galaxy that you were the "last" of the Jedi. When you talk to HK-50 at the beginning of the game he mentions that it was him that told everyone that you were a Jedi and had been in Exile. There is a line there that the PC can use that says that that information would not be in the coreward databases but only in the Jedi archives and who is the mistress of the Archives? Atris. In the final battle with Atris she says that she released your name to the public so that you would lure the Sith out of hiding so she could kill them so that she could be the hero of the galaxy this time not you or Revan. Also I have my suspicions that it was Atris that lured Nihilus to Katarr not just the Jedi there. If you tell any of the Jedi Masters that Atris is on Telos they all say they thought she had gone to Katarr.

 

4) Your shipmates on Malachor V. 

-- Boa-Dur is implied to be dead, based on how I saw it.  Is he, is he not?  He tells Remote to activate some big bomb thing that I never remember hearing about.  They the GO-?? driod flies in and talk about preventing the worlds destruction.  The story is left at that.  Nothing more.

Actually no. Bao-Dur says if your seeing this we've returned to Malachor V. And askes the remote to activate the mass shadow generator. Obviously you did not gain enough influence with Bao-Dur or did not train him as a Jedi because he tells you he created what destroyed Malachor and that the exile gave to order to use it. As for Go-To and Remote if the Mass shadow generator blow the planet then Remote overroad Go-To reprogramming.

-- Mira.  Kreia seems to indicate that she is a threat to her plans... first, *what plans* and second, all she does if fight Hanharr and it is left at that.  Huh!?

-- I guess I just have to take Kreia's word that everything turns out a-okay for all the rest.

Okay this I have no clue about. The only thing I can think is that she followed me at least to the door and then realized this was out of her league and went back to the Ebon Hawk.

 

5) The Eban Hawk.  Falls into a pit, and suddenly rises from one to save me.  Ya... okay, very open ended but I'll live with it.

This I think was to show you the Ebon Hawk managed the get free of that crevice it was wedged in.

 

6) The Jedi Masters.  So I'm exiled because I lost the connection with the Force because the Jedi Masters see fear some huge disconnect in the Force.  I go through all this work to find them all, to "combat the Sith threat", only to have them judge me again and strip my power again?

It's proof of how arrogant the Jedi Masters are and it's a betrayal. Which is a very obvious theme through out this game. Kreia was betrayed by Sion and Nihilus. Atton betrayed the republic by joining with Revan and Malak after the Mandalorian wars, etc. They do not fully understand what happened to the Exile and instead of helping him/her reconnect fully to the Force and understand what happened instead the kick you out a second time. Kriea says you brings truth and they condemn it. They fear you because you lived without the Force which they believe is impossible.

 

7) The Ending.  I have a choice to "follow Revan", "return to exile" or go back to my friends (or something).  None of which have any effect on the ending (I tried them all).  Kreia talks about the "greater Sith threat" that Revan discovered and went off to fight -- aside from telling me why I can't talk to Reven in KotOR II, what does this accomplish?  No matter what option is choosen, the ending is that of the Eban Hawk flying off alone into a nebula.  How bloody anti-climatic... I got to see a fleet destroyed, the Star Forge destroyed and I got a medal in KotOR I.  I get to see myself fly into a nebula for KotOR II.

Canderous says that the Sith came to the Mandalorians with an offer to fight a worthy enemy in a battle that would be remembered for ever. These were not Revan and Malak's Sith were talking about here these are the real Sith. Revan and Malak were just Jedi who followed the Sith path. Well no matter what you choose you have to leave Malachor V, don't you?

 

Kreia... and the twisted thing at the end I think was supposed to be the plot...  I'm just lost here.  So, was all this about Kreia just getting the chance to kill everyone who crossed her?  Wasn't she trying to create some huge void in the force?  Wasn't I bonded to her, and very uncertain about the effect he death would have (backed up by Atris' hint that Kreia is willing to kill herself to kill me to accomplish her goals)?  I seemed to get the impression, eventually, that I was somehow the key to unraveling the Force... and then the story just ends up pittering out, leaving that point behind.

Kriea talks constantly of manipulation and betrayal. She despises the Force and would like to see it's end. Which is what she sees in the Exile. However, along the way she sees that you have the potential to be greater than her first (who I assume she means Revan). As to the force bond ask anyone, Vrook, Kavar, Disciple and they will tell you that they have never, ever heard of a force bond being lethal. I have also heard that bonds end with some act of betrayal. Which Kriea betrayed you did she not? And I would believe everything that Kreia told Atris because Kreia is a manipulative old witch. It could be she told Atris all those thing just to get you to follow her to Malachor V.

 

I'm lost.  The point of KotOR II seems to be a chance to see what a few folks from KotOR I are doing 10 years, see some of the effects the war had, with a bunch of quests and bad people to kill in order to make it last 40 hours.

 

What exactly did I just save the galaxy from?

You tried to save the galaxy but for once failed.

[Ostkant]

You can click here to help you understand more about Sion and Nihilus.