Happy Voting!

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Scientific progress shouldn't be halted for any reasons, may it be costs, religious doctrine, or political gain.

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Someone still has to pay for it though.

[Vincent_Valashar]

That is the problem. Everything costs and things costs artificially. We are one of the most resourceful countries on this planet. All we have to do is work together as one people to allocate the necessary resources to get the job done. Of course that will never happen. The people of the US are fragmentized between the have and have nots, those who seek to advance technology and those who hide behind false morality of religion. We have the ability to achiev greatness, only to be held back by our own flaws.

[Commissar]

also, there's an obvious agenda there (weakening our position) that can't be overlooked.  it's not the US' fault that we're more efficient, produce more and enjoy a higher standard of living than most.  if the rest of the world wants the same things, than maybe they ought to pay attention to how we got here...

 

Actually, I'll take the average European 32-hour work week over our average 80-hour anytime. Our productivity is more a result of the fact that we work ourselves to death and have states bigger than most European companies rather than any sort of drive. You think their quality of life and perks are lower than ours, go over there someday. It'll change your mind.

[taks]

I think Karl Rove saying it is pretty good evidence.  Check out the Yahoo! news story on Democratic soul-searching.

karl rove is citing anecdotal evidence, not facts.

 

Also, it's a generally known fact that higher education has a liberalizing effect on a person's views.  Republicans would argue that being around degenerate, weed-smoking college professors is the cause.  I'd argue that the more you learn about the world, the more you realize that maybe God doesn't pick presidents.

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bullsh*t. the phrase "generally known fact" is meaningless and in fact, has no basis in fact. i guarantee if you poll all of the engineers in the country you'll find they're mostly conservative. the crowd i work and hang-out with is incredibly more educated than 99.9% of the world, yet we're mostly conservative... maybe this is generally accepted as fact in liberal circles only?

 

your argument that "the more you learn about the world" is ridiculous. liberal arts schools teach ideals. it's not because of pot smoking hippie type professors, it's because they're brought up on hopes and dreams of utopian societies... engineering (applied sciences) schools generally foster logical thought and reasoning abilities. we're hyper-analytical and it shows...

 

god didn't pick our president, btw, 58 million people did.

 

taks

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

That is the problem.  Everything costs and things costs artificially.  We are one of the most resourceful countries on this planet.  All we have to do is work together as one people to allocate the necessary resources to get the job done.  Of course that will never happen.  The people of the US are fragmentized between the have and have nots, those who seek to advance technology and those who hide behind false morality of religion.  We have the ability to achiev greatness, only to be held back by our own flaws.

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Yes but welfare really only encourages that. Take our blessed little isle. If you have a kid you skip to the front of the council house waiting list. Guess what that means. Yep we have shedloads of teenage mothers.

 

I've known people get pregnant for that very reason. Plus we pay out pretty high on child benifits etc. In fact in many cases it's cheaper not to work because of the various benifits you can get , compared to what "contributions" you would have to pay out if you did work.

 

Whacky isnt it

 

Higher taxes , well that just makes resent them all the more rather than feel sorry for them. So I've become more conservative , where as in college I was very much a liberal.

[Vincent_Valashar]

Coming from a university that has both a strong liberal arts program and a very strong engineering program I have to agree with Taks. Besides, there is no God. It is an artificially created construct to implemenet social controls and explain the explainable.

 

@Shadowpaladin, that is a sad fact because people will try to take advantage of the system in place and use it for their own gain. Greed is a constant in the human condition.

[taks]

That may be true, but the fact remains that his margin is low, no matter how you spin it. Even compared to recent years. Clinton won by a 9% margin in his second term and was right under 50% of the popular vote with a stong (as they go) 3rd party candidate taking votes (which didn't give him the large margin, the votes that went to perot would have been almost evenly split between the two on all legit accounts. it just kept him under 50%). Reagan also won by a very large margin, iirc. So recent history has shown incumbents that win, win by alot. If you tack on that this is a "war" time president, the margin of victory really reflects that it was a realitivly slim win.

i didn't spin anything. i merely stated that the large we get, the harder it is to win a majority. btw, clinton's 3rd party candidate took votes away from the republicans, not himself. also, as i've noted, JFK only won by 115,000 votes out of 70 million, yet somehow he's viewed as some "favorite son" of america. hardly.

 

 

It is based off those exit polls, yes. They wern't wrong in the counties they were taken in, btw, the data IS good.

ah, yes, the exit polls. proven invalid. no, they weren't accurate in the counties they were taken in. they were inaccurate everywhere. the data IS bad.

 

Those "swing" counties, were most of the polls were taken, pointed to a Kerry victory....and Kerry won most of them (actually, I think he won all of them, but I don't have that off hand.). The problem was that those polls were applied to the state as a whole. What happened is that Bush had supporters come out in larger than expected numbers in counties that he was expected to win.

again, there's no evidence to support this.

 

In other states the exit polls were dead on

no.

 

What Karl Rove said in regards to this:

 

Bush's political strategist Karl Rove characterized the typical Democrat as "somebody with a doctorate"

 

And it's no secret that in semi-recent history Demos tend to be better educated as a whole. You can argue why that it, but it doesn't change the fact that it is.

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no, there's no evidence of this. "it's no secret" is something YOU believe... prove it. i'll soon have a doctorate and every PhD i know is a conservative (actually, most of us are libertarian in core beliefs). i betcha i know more PhDs than you, too...

 

taks

[Vincent_Valashar]

Do you know what I have in my pocket?

[kumquatq3]

maybe this is generally accepted as fact in liberal circles only?

 

Karl Rove is a liberal? Who would have thought.....

[ShadowPaladin V1.0]

Coming from a university that has both a strong liberal arts program and a very strong engineering program I have to agree with Taks.  Besides, there is no God.  It is an artificially created construct to implemenet social controls and explain the explainable.

 

@Shadowpaladin, that is a sad fact because people will try to take advantage of the system in place and use it for their own gain.  Greed is a constant in the human condition.

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Psychology and Sociology.

 

Whether or not there is a god isnt really whats relevent here. What is relevent is you wouldnt have a snowballs in hell chance of getting into the Whitehouse proudly proclaiming yourself an aethiest.

 

It dosnt much matter whether you agree with it or disagree thats just how it is. If you for example wanted to be pres , then you would have to find religion

[taks]

Actually, I'll take the average European 32-hour work week over our average 80-hour anytime.  Our productivity is more a result of the fact that we work ourselves to death and have states bigger than most European companies rather than any sort of drive.  You think their quality of life and perks are lower than ours, go over there someday.  It'll change your mind.

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good for you. one of the reasons, btw, that the EU has twice as many people and 1/3 the GDP of the US. we don't average 80 hours a week, either. less than 40, actually. if you're working 80 hours a week, maybe you should a) learn a trade or b) sacrifice part of your life like i did and get an education.

 

yes, btw, our quality of life is MUCH higher than in europe. as a matter of fact, the "poverty line" in the US is typical of an average european. just because yours isn't doesn't mean we're all suffering.

 

taks

[Vincent_Valashar]

And that is unfortuante, Shadowpaladin, especially when there needs to be a separation of Church and state.

[taks]

Karl Rove is a liberal? Who would have thought.....

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no, karl rove is merely citing anecdote... how many times do i say this till you understand?

 

taks

[Commissar]

I think Karl Rove saying it is pretty good evidence. Check out the Yahoo! news story on Democratic soul-searching.

karl rove is citing anecdotal evidence, not facts.

 

[quotje]Also, it's a generally known fact that higher education has a liberalizing effect on a person's views. Republicans would argue that being around degenerate, weed-smoking college professors is the cause. I'd argue that the more you learn about the world, the more you realize that maybe God doesn't pick presidents.

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bullsh*t. the phrase "generally known fact" is meaningless and in fact, has no basis in fact. i guarantee if you poll all of the engineers in the country you'll find they're mostly conservative. the crowd i work and hang-out with is incredibly more educated than 99.9% of the world, yet we're mostly conservative... maybe this is generally accepted as fact in liberal circles only?

 

your argument that "the more you learn about the world" is ridiculous. liberal arts schools teach ideals. it's not because of pot smoking hippie type professors, it's because they're brought up on hopes and dreams of utopian societies... engineering (applied sciences) schools generally foster logical thought and reasoning abilities. we're hyper-analytical and it shows...

 

god didn't pick our president, btw, 58 million people did.

 

taks

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No, it does have a basis in fact. It's been in every high school civics textbook published since around 1980 or so. It's a long-studied and proven fact of the world; higher education tends to have a liberalizing effect on a person. I'm not suggesting it's true for everyone - my father has a couple of masters and he voted Republican - but by and large, that's just the way it goes.

 

By the way, claims of superior intelligence generally have less impact when they're made without appearing to use a modicum of grammar. Like it or not, the manner in which a thought is conveyed has just as much influence on the response to the thought as the thought itself. That's another long-studied and basic fact that you might choose to believe is bull****.

 

As far as the engineers go, I'd say overall their conservative values are brought on by the typical social ineptitude they exhibit rather than their education. They ain't getting any, and so neither should the rest of the world.

 

Another exception to the general rule is the military. Officers are for the most part college-educated and highly Republican. I accredit that more to their view that Republicans will do better by them than Democrats will.

 

But, I'll give up the whole line of argument if you can point to one instance in our history where social conservatism, the feeling that the status quo is good enough, has been for the best. I'll knock a few off right away; the liberation of slaves, female suffrage, and the civil rights movement of the 1960s. I'm sort of glad liberals carried their points on those issues, and as far as I can tell they haven't ruined the country yet.

[Vincent_Valashar]

Well, the civil war was one of the most bloodiest times of our nation's history. I think that is quite a harmful effect.

[kumquatq3]

btw, clinton's 3rd party candidate took votes away from the republicans, not himself.

 

That is what is called a conservative myth. Fox news was even talking about it late last night. Which is what reminded me to bring it up.

 

also, as i've noted, JFK only won by 115,000 votes out of 70 million, yet somehow he's viewed as some "favorite son" of america. hardly.

 

So you are agreeing with me that just because you label something, doesn't make it so.

 

So again, the facts say Bush won by one of the smallest margins even for an incumbent, and several points lower than other incumbent winners in recent history. Worse if you compare it to just wartime incumbents.

 

ah, yes, the exit polls. proven invalid. no, they weren't accurate in the counties they were taken in. they were inaccurate everywhere. the data IS bad.

 

this whole statement is wrong

 

again, there's no evidence to support this.

 

Yes, in fact, there is PLENTY of evidence to support this. Turn on the tv for 15 minutes and they will break down what happened in ohio yet again for you. Pick your network.

 

no, there's no evidence of this. "it's no secret" is something YOU believe... prove it. i'll soon have a doctorate and every PhD i know is a conservative (actually, most of us are libertarian in core beliefs). i betcha i know more PhDs than you, too

 

Apparently KARL ROVE sees some evidence in this. KARL ****ING ROVE

 

Sorry, that trumpts "I know a guy with a degree that voted Republican"

[Commissar]

good for you.  one of the reasons, btw, that the EU has twice as many people and 1/3 the GDP of the US.  we don't average 80 hours a week, either.  less than 40, actually.  if you're working 80 hours a week, maybe you should a) learn a trade or b) sacrifice part of your life like i did and get an education.

 

yes, btw, our quality of life is MUCH higher than in europe.  as a matter of fact, the "poverty line" in the US is typical of an average european.  just because yours isn't doesn't mean we're all suffering.

 

taks

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I'll take career counseling only after you actually know my career and how many hours a week I work. I don't do eighty, and I'm doing just fine. And I think Churchill's old tag, "If you have to tell someone you're powerful, you aren't," is quite appropos here. I'm not keeping a degree tally, so quit bringing it up. It doesn't impress me. I know firsthand how ridiculously easy it is to get a doctorate.

 

Europe also has a lower cost of living, which accounts for your specious poverty line argument. And my quality of life is pretty damn high, but it's nothing I couldn't get in Europe doing less work, by and large.

[taks]

No, it does have a basis in fact.  It's been in every high school civics textbook published since around 1980 or so.

hardly making it a fact... you've still provided no evidence.

 

 

By the way, claims of superior intelligence generally have less impact when they're made without appearing to use a modicum of grammar.  Like it or not, the manner in which a thought is conveyed has just as much influence on the response to the thought as the thought itself.  That's another long-studied and basic fact that you might choose to believe is bull****.

curiously, how is my grammar deficient? besides some "spoken" language, it's actually better than yours.

 

As far as the engineers go, I'd say overall their conservative values are brought on by the typical social ineptitude they exhibit rather than their education.  They ain't getting any, and so neither should the rest of the world.

now you're flaming and i have thusly reported you. if you can't accept a dissenting opinion, perhaps you should post elsehwere? the status of my sex life, or any other engineer is beyond this discussion and irrelevant.

 

by virtue of your inability to handle debate, you no longer interest me...

 

oh, btw, JE, add three zeros to your number, $3,000,000,000

 

taks

[Gromnir]

And that is unfortuante, Shadowpaladin, especially when there needs to be a separation of Church and state.

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separation of church and state has had many meanings... no doubt you thinks that your interp is the correct one? one thing that seperation of church and state has NEVER meant is that religious folks should refrain from entering politics... or that politicians should refrain from letting their faith guide them. like it or not, our country is populated by people who is religious... though they is probably less religious now than they was 50, 100 or 200 years ago. those folks who fear some sorta fundametalist nighmare (ala magaret atwood,) is, in our opinion, being a bit silly.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

p.s. just for vv, you can discover how many atheists has won the nobel prize for physics if you wish. might surprise you.

[Commissar]

No, it does have a basis in fact.  It's been in every high school civics textbook published since around 1980 or so.

hardly making it a fact... you've still provided no evidence.

 

 

By the way, claims of superior intelligence generally have less impact when they're made without appearing to use a modicum of grammar.  Like it or not, the manner in which a thought is conveyed has just as much influence on the response to the thought as the thought itself.  That's another long-studied and basic fact that you might choose to believe is bull****.

curiously, how is my grammar deficient? besides some "spoken" language, it's actually better than yours.

 

As far as the engineers go, I'd say overall their conservative values are brought on by the typical social ineptitude they exhibit rather than their education.  They ain't getting any, and so neither should the rest of the world.

now you're flaming and i have thusly reported you. if you can't accept a dissenting opinion, perhaps you should post elsehwere? the status of my sex life, or any other engineer is beyond this discussion and irrelevant.

 

by virtue of your inability to handle debate, you no longer interest me...

 

oh, btw, JE, add three zeros to your number, $3,000,000,000

 

taks

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How was that flaming? Simply reporting anecdotal evidence. I know more than a few engineers. They're pretty bad. Sounds like I hit a nerve.

 

And of course I can accept dissenting opinion, but that's all you're providing. You're disputing what has been taken as sociological fact for three decades and backing it up with the claim that of all the engineers you know, none of them are liberal. So what? I know a hell of a lot of people who can add the Doctor prefix to their name. Some are liberal, some are conservative. Most are liberal. By your own logic, I therefore carry my point, no?

[Vincent_Valashar]

I am not saying religious folks shouldn't go into politics, but it shouldn't motivate the politics and governmental issues. Religion is a private affair and needs to be a private affair. God has no place in the White House. If I want to live in a religious state I would move to the Vatican City.

[taks]

Apparently KARL ROVE sees some evidence in this. KARL ****ING ROVE

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yeah, Karl ****ING SPOKESMAN. he's a spokesman for god's sake. he's citing ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE. this is all... get over it.

 

and you still don't get my point. i never said bush won by a landslide. i said it was significant (if you think 3.6 million is a small number think again...). and i pointed out, btw, that JFK's 115,000 was a MUCH smaller margin, yet he supposedly had a mandate of the people. bush has 51% of the vote so the "divide" isn't nearly as prevalent as originally thought. most analysts did not expect him to do this well. they also thought, wrongly, that all the new and young registrants would vote heavily. they did not. they do typically vote democratic, too (i did when i was younger).

 

churchill also said (paraphrasing) "an 18 year old conservative has no heart, but a 36 year old liberal has no brain."

 

taks

[taks]

I am not saying religious folks shouldn't go into politics, but it shouldn't motivate the politics and governmental issues.  Religion is a private affair and needs to be a private affair.  God has no place in the White House.  If I want to live in a religious state I would move to the Vatican City.

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i think you're failing to realize that religion in one's life, no matter how significant, WILL have an affect. it's unavoidable. in the white house or not. furthermore, just because a president openly worships does not mean we live in a religious state. it simply means he's using his religious foundation as a guide, nothing more. if you think that hasn't been the case throughout history, you are mistaken.

 

taks

[Commissar]

Churchill also said that any ideas about the benefits of democracy would be wiped out during a five minute conversation with the average voter.

 

It's almost like he knew...

[Vincent_Valashar]

I am sure it has, but this is the 21st century. We should know better.