20 Levels

[Exar_Kun]

didn't they say that the level cap was raised?

[Judge Hades]

Hades, do you ever play basketball with a group of friends?  If so, do you adhere to every single rule that the NBA has?  24 second shot clock?  12 minute quarters?  foul outs?  If not, then would you say you're not playing basketball?  I doubt anyone who plays a game of pick up basketball would say that.

 

We don't play Basketball. We are gamers. One of my friends and I frisbee golfed and yes, we adhere to the rules.

 

My point?  Obsidian (and Bioware) borrowed ASPECTS of a rules system to use, but then modified it to THEIR liking.  They took an existing rules system to give them an idea of how things would work, then tweeked things to fit what they wanted their game to be.  Just like you and your friends took the basic basketball rules, but eliminated or changed rules that didn't really fit with what you wanted to do.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When we play games we play by the rules. The difference between home game and the computer is that Bioware and Obsidian are trying to spout this off as official game product while at home iwe are not. If we were going to form our own NBA team and make our game official, then yes we need to adhere to the rules.

[sandman1347]

Rules, rules, rules! Hades, you need to learn to think outside of the box man!

 

By the way; the idea that a jedi can ever reach a point at which there is nothing more for him to learn about the force is ridiculous. It seems that jedi continuously become stronger with the force as they get older. In that sense, capping character progression would really be out of sync with the SW universe. Even if they do cap your level progression (ie: hit points, attack, defense) they shouldn't cap your progression with the force.

[alanschu]

But it's not d20. I can see many differences

[Influence]

We don't play Basketball.  We are gamers.  One of my friends and I frisbee golfed and yes, we adhere to the rules.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

WEll..i am a gamer and i ball as well, so lets nto be sterotypical. And as far as im concerned GoA's point, as much as i hate to admit it, is crystal clear and its actually quite a good analogy. In a game of street ball its impossible to follow the all of the NBA rules such as shot clocks and quarter lengths becasue

A. Games would take too Long

B. THere is no shot clock

C. 5 people is too large a number on some courts

 

The POint is that the rules off the NBA indoor game simply do not fit in a street game. They need to be adapted so that basketball is playable in a specific enviorment and situation. THerefore KOTOR needed to be adapted to best fit the Video game enviorment.

 

Now concerning teh 20 level system.. i only say that it shoudl remain at 20 levels ideally because KOTOR was 20 levels and some sort of consistency should be present between TSL and its predecessor.

 

Regardless of how much you wish it were true... KOTOR is NOT a PEn and Paper game... KOTOR IS NOT D20 even if some of the system features were based on D20....You need to read my long and previous post...Understand GoA's analogy....Understand KOTOR should be adapted so that it is as enjoyable as possible for the electronic gamer...and even if you dont ADMIT you are wrong, know that you are

 

Also, Frisbee was designed to be a backyard sport.. it is not a derivation unlike how streetball was derived from the indoor sport of basketball. If you ever played a true game of basketball as opposed to a streetball game you would understand that while street ball is in essence basketball they are very different. That is why the And1 ballers cant quite cut it in the NBA B)

[GhostofAnakin]

When we play games we play by the rules.  The difference between home game and the computer is that Bioware and Obsidian are trying to spout this off as official game product while at home iwe are not.  If we were going to form our own NBA team and make our game official, then yes we need to adhere to the rules.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Have Obsidian or Bioware ever stated that these games were going to STRICTLY adhere to the d20 system? Or have they stated they are using that system as a base for the combat module? I don't recall seeing them advertise KOTOR: TSL as "the exact replica of the PnP d20 rules set".

 

All I'm saying is that it's not uncommon nor unreasonable to use a specific rule set (whether it be for basketball, football, or PnP) as a basis for what you want to do, but then modify them to suit what you hope to accomplish.

[Judge Hades]

If you are going to use an established rules system, use it, otherwise come up something original. Don't be lazy. That is what I am saying.

[Influence]

If you are going to use an established rules system, use it, otherwise come up something original.  Don't be lazy.  That is what I am saying.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why? Why come up with somethign brand new when they see teh potential for a modified version of the D20 system that obviously works well in KOTOR.

 

THey are jsut looking for teh best system possible that fits teh game and if the best system is a Modified version of D20.. then so be it... I woudl rather have that than a bad all-original version woudlnt you?

[Volourn]

"The difference between home game and the computer is that Bioware and Obsidian are trying to spout this off as official game product while at home iwe are not. "

 

You seem to forget that any and all changes BIO made in KOTOR (or NWN for that matter) were ALL approved by the Big Wigs in charge. their opinion matters more than you. You lose.

[Influence]

i think Hades needs to admit he sees our point...

[Judge Hades]

I see where you are coming from, but you are wrong.

 

Volourn, the big whigs in charge don't care about integrity. All they care about is the money so your point is moot.

[Volourn]

"Volourn, the big whigs in charge don't care about integrity. All they care about is the money so your point is moot."

 

Irrelevant. It's their rules so they can allow any changes to be made if they so wish.

[Influence]

I see where you are coming from, but you are wrong.

 

Volourn, the big whigs in charge don't care about integrity.  All they care about is the money so your point is moot.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HAHA you are correct theri Hades they only want money they DOTN care... but the developers do.. and they decided a modified D20 is best for the computer since like i said this is NOT a PnP game, it cant be, and never will be. THey had to adjust it for single player action and electronic gaming. A game based SOLEY on teh D20 system would probably not be too entertaining.. they have done a fine job and they will continue to do a fine job. THey are creative enough to know that the D20 system does work when slightly altered and they did that and improved the quality of the game and made it suitable for console and PC gamers.

[Judge Hades]

No, they did a crappy job. They know that the d20 System doesn't work but they were to lazy to come up with an original system which would have worked better.

[alanschu]

Why come up with something original when there is something that is already similar to what you want to do with it.

 

 

Welcome to real life Hades. Why start from scratch when you can borrow ideas from someone else? It's not practical, especially considering the already huge development costs that go into making a videogame. No sense wasting huge amounts of money paying people to come up with something entirely brand new.

 

You are living in a fantasy world, bub.

[Influence]

No, they did a crappy job.  They know that the d20 System doesn't work but they were to lazy to come up with an original system which would have worked better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They did a crappy job eh? I guess KOTOR jsut isnt ur game... stick to teh PnP if you really dont liek it that much man.. i jsut think they did a good job considering KOTOR is one of teh best Starwars games ever.. along with the Super nintendo games...

 

OK THATS ENOUGH GANGING UP ON HADES

 

But who knwos maybe they switched the system up a bity in this one.. i like teh 20 level idea personally, even though when i first started this topic i didn't. Liek i said modifed 20 levels is teh way to GO! Sentinals get new force powers every level and GUardians every level and a half... Consulars get a new force power every half level or so... THAT is the BEST system best of both worlds.. increased force powers without teh increase in other stats.. sticks to the KOTOR system with a few MINOR improvements!

[Judge Hades]

Oh, yes, make thje classes even more munchkin. Yeah, munchkin powerlaming is the way to go.

[Volourn]

Games that do things crappy are worthy of 85-90% ratings now? WOWSERS!

[Influence]

Oh, yes, make thje classes even more munchkin.  Yeah, munchkin powerlaming is the way to go. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

IT snto powerlaming man, as a jedi guardian i had aobut 5 force powers give or take a couple.. but thas ridiculous, no Jedi consular, or guardian only ahs 5 force powers the increae in powers makes the game mreo REAL and complex...i dotn want teh stats to Increase such as life or damage.. i just think that it would be more realistic if their were a reasonable amount of force powers

 

ALso with the addition of all the new force power options, it owuld make sense for them to up the amount of powers u can obtain, not jsut choose them, and a Jedi consular recieving a force power every half level is not that many powers when u RELLA y think about it, COnsidering there woudl be 20 levels, so that is 40 power selectiosn in total, but seeing as how you need to put three points into the power to master it, that allows you to chose from about 13 force powers.. maybe that is a TAD to many .. but i dont know..

 

I thnk that a ture LEvel 20 Jedi consular master would certainly have teh cabailiteis to master 13 force powers if he is legendary... Tell me what you think

[Judge Hades]

Volourn, they did a crappy job of the rules implementation. That is why it scored a 90 and not a 95 or 100%. I gave the game a B+.

 

 

Putting it that way, Influence, you do have a point but the Guardian has other abilities that balances it out from the force powers. One being getting a new feat every other level. Also just because there is a ton of new force powers doesn't mean your character can get every single one of them, or should he be allowed to. This offers greater replayability, which KotOR 1 lacked.

[Influence]

Volourn, they did a crappy job of the rules implementation.  That is why it scored a 90 and not a 95 or 100%.  I gave the game a B+.

 

 

Putting it that way, Influence, you do have a point but the Guardian has other abilities that balances it out from the force powers.  One being getting a new feat every other level.  Also just because there is a ton of new force powers doesn't mean your character can get every single one of them, or should he be allowed to.  This offers greater replayability, which KotOR 1 lacked.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, the Jedi guardian does have more feat options than the pother characters, but i am not asking for ANY character to EVER be able to take advantage of ALL the force powers in 1 game, not even half of the force powers. BUt they ADDED new force powers which woudl allow the room for my system to work. Lets look at teh casual gamer, i am a little mroe than casual but close enough, I will probably not play star wars TSL more than 4 times. Probably twice light side and twice dark side. 1 light guardian, 1 light consular 1 dark guardian 1 dark consular.

 

Obsidian added a great deal of force powers, we all know that; but with teh same system of leveling as in KOTOR i feel the added powers will be soarly wasted on many casual gamers who will only play the game 2-3 times.

 

You are right that the first game offered replay value by not allowign you, even a Jedi consular, to obtain all of the force powers, or even Half of them.

 

However, the TSL has new force powers, therefore to keep the same ratio of force powers a character can obtain, they would have to let teh character earn either :

1) Earn More Levels (which i now realize woudl be a not-so good idea)

2) Redesign the Levelign system. (I personally liek my idea, but if anyoen else has a different idea aobut how this should be doen please, speak up)

 

Now with that said, back to the Jedi guardian of KOTOR, these are the Skills which i had with my LS Jedi GUardian.

1) Master Speed

2) Force Auora

3) Heal

4)Force Wave

5)Lightsaber throw

 

I think that is the list, maybe one more power... that is nto a very impressive list, even for a Jedi Guardian who focuses mainly on saber combat and what is even WORSE, if you were to make another Jedi guardian, you woudl probably end up choosing the same skills, since LS skill are pretty limited. Heck I might go as far to say that MOST LS jedi have NEARLY identical skills considering it is a MUST to obtain MASTER SPEED and HEAL. Of course a Jedi COnsular and Guardian are differnt in their STYLE of play, but not TOO differnt in their force powers, save that the LS consular has a larger quantity.

 

If you were able to selecte MORE powers from a LARGER list, that woudl increase the Mix-and Match aspect of the game and a Jedi GUardian could gain a power every level and a half while a Consular every half level on every OTHER level (which would equate to roughly 30 force power choices if my arithemtic is correct), Sentinal every level(20 force power selections) and Guardian every level and a half(13 or 14 force power selections)

 

Certainly with ALL the new force powers in KOTOR 2.. this would be a feasable amount of force powers. In fact i think that the outline i have jsut mentioned MAY be a little bit on the skimpy side, but who knows...

 

AS a consular you woudl only be able to FULLY master 10 force powers and if their are say 25 Force power categories, then that offers a decent amoutn of replay value you coudl play the game 4 times without usign the same powers each time 1LS consular 1 DS consular 1 LS Guardian 1 DS Guardian or sentianl if u prefer.

 

PLus with teh SIth assasin, jedi master, sith lord classes, replayability shoudl not be a problem

[alanschu]

Volourn, they did a crappy job of the rules implementation.  That is why it scored a 90 and not a 95 or 100%.  I gave the game a B+.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You also come from a whacked out program that apparently rates a 90 as a B. Probably had more to do with marking on the curve than anything else.

[Judge Hades]

Volourn, they did a crappy job of the rules implementation.  That is why it scored a 90 and not a 95 or 100%.  I gave the game a B+.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You also come from a whacked out program that apparently rates a 90 as a B. Probably had more to do with marking on the curve than anything else.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There was no curve.

[alanschu]

University of Iowa right?

[GhostofAnakin]

I still don't understand the problem with someone (this time Bioware) taking an existing ruleset as a baseline, then altering it to fit their needs, especially when there's no need to a)use the ruleset 100% as it is, or b)make an entirely new ruleset when there is one available that is very similar to what you want to achieve.