Nur Ab Sal Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 George Lucas had very big part in creating background of the Tales of the Jedi. He also accepted key characters of the series like Nomi Sunrider and Exar Kun. In interview for Dark Horse Kevin Anderson when asked about TOTJ said this: "Gilman: The Sith are a major topic of your comic work. Where did the Sith come from, creatively? Anderson: George Lucas. When I sent in the proposal for Exar Kun in my Jedi Academy Trilogy, I proposed that he'd either be the spirit of a Dark Jedi or a Dark Lord of the Sith... whichever was preferable -- Darth Vader is referred to as a Dark Lord of the Sith in Star Wars. Lucas said to make him a Dark Lord of the Sith; so then I had to ask what a Dark Lord of the Sith is. Tom Veitch and I gave him a two-page questionnaire about what Dark Lords of the Sith can or can't do and Lucas defined all the parameters for us." ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also another evidence comes from "Fall of the Sith Empire" issue #1. In the back of the comic there is Q&A section. One of fans doesn't agree with TOTJ vision of the Sith and Dark Horse makes this statement: "Sorry you don't like the framework of the Sith and the Dark Jedi, but that background came directly to us from George Lucas. We're following his guidelines and building a story within the parameters he himself laid down." There are other evidences of GL's participation in TOTJ but these two are sufficient. So as you see, fools who say that KOTOR can piss on EU are wrong. Let's say that Bioware's vision of ancient galaxy sucks in comparison to excellent vision of Anderson, Veitch and Lucas (and others). Devs were too lazy to show ancient galaxy the same way and in contradiction to others the fact that KOTOR is an excellent RPG doesn't cloud my judgement. I would say that Tales of the Jedi are more official that the rest of EU. 90% of EU was created without GL's interference, so there is also a question if TOTJ comics are EU or something bigger... HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
justabloke Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 Point One: Just because Lucas allows something to published doesn
Nur Ab Sal Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 Your analysis is wrong . If GL participated himself in creation of TOTJ that's mean that TOTJ are more official that rest of EU. The fact that most of EU material has little common with films has nothing to do with it. Most of EU material was created without GL's interference. TOTJ was. I am under impression that you didn't read my post at all becouse your arguments are completely innacurate. HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
Maedhros Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 He's right about one thing though: Almost ALL of the EU stuff is very poorly written. 8]
Nur Ab Sal Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 Thrawn Trilogy is excellent and some of NJO stuff also HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
Nur Ab Sal Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 GL accepted entire content of TOTJ. Besides the most basic rule of EU is that material that is created later cannot contradict material that was created earlier. KOTOR contradicts rest of EU in many things becouse of the fact that Lucas Licensing wasn't interested in any form of control over Bioware. Either discussion with you is pointless. Only total idiot would say that EU products like Shatterpoint or Traitor or Zahn novels "are very poorly written". Only 30% of sw novels is real sh.. not to mention wonderful dark horse comics. Besides we aren't discussing how good EU products are or not. We are discussing if TOTJ is a direct vision of GL or not. And I have arguments that yes although GL didn't create TOTJ directly, he had big participation in it and was more involved in it than in any other EU product. Therefore your argumentation is pointless. To me what KOTOR presents is a poor man's copy of GL movies and nothing original. But have it your way. HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
justabloke Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 The Zahn stuff is really, really bad. GL sold the rights to write stuff around Star Wars. Then, when asked, he provided some guidelines for writers, like no sex between Luke and Liea (that was before RotJ was released). He also made some information available to writers to make their jobs a little easier by fleshing out concepts not fully explained in the movies. While much of the EU does back-flips to try and force itself into a coherent story it still isn
thepixiesrock Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 I was just curious as to what in kotor goes against the rest of the EU? Lou Gutman, P.I.- It's like I'm not even trying anymore!http://theatomicdanger.iforumer.com/index....theatomicdangerOne billion b-balls dribbling simultaneously throughout the galaxy. One trillion b-balls being slam dunked through a hoop throughout the galaxy. I can feel every single b-ball that has ever existed at my fingertips. I can feel their collective knowledge channeling through my viens. Every jumpshot, every rebound and three-pointer, every layup, dunk, and free throw. I am there.
Jast Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 I was just curious as to what in kotor goes against the rest of the EU? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The technology, the Jedi council, some dialog, I don't know really, I never read ToTJ.
jedipodo Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 For those who don't believe that some of the EU stuff has become canon, I would suggest to take a look into the OFFICIAL SW databank (www.starwars.com). I think every EU character, story and location, that is mentioned here, can be seen as canon. The story of Exar Kun and Thrawn are in it, as so KotOR1. Whether this mix can form a coherent SW universe is another subject... "Jedi poodoo!" - some displeased Dug S.L.J. said he has already filmed his death scene and was visibly happy that he
Nur Ab Sal Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 GL almost never advices writers and creators of EU. Writers like Zahn or others deal with Lucas Licensing clerks like Sue Rostoni. Lucas probably doesn't know about 90% of things that comprises EU. the example of TOTJ is exceptional becouse Lucas was involved in it by himself. Even Thrawn Trilogy was checked by Lucas Licensing not by Lucas! To me fact that EU must be coherent is obvious. If Star Wars as a whole (movies+EU) presents one vision of some fictional universe than all elements like books and games must not contradict each other. Otherwise Star Wars will convert into nonsense instead being convincing vision of some far galaxy. Besides vulgar copy of master Yoda is clear evidence of devs' lack of originality. the ancient era was time of low-tech and there weren't any "cybernetic implants" 4000 years ago. Not to mention that there was no jedi council 4000 years ago - instead great convocations were deciding about order's most important things. One master could train more than one apprentice. Jedi could marry and love. And title 'darth" appeared 3000 years later. And so on... HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
Stargate: 2000 Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 GL accepted entire content of TOTJ you fool. Do you understand or are a moron? Besides the most basic rule of EU is that material that is created later cannot contradict material that was created earlier. KOTOR contradicts rest of EU in many things becouse of the fact that Lucas Licensing wasn't interested in any form of control over Bioware. Either discussion with you is pointless. Only total idiot would say that EU products like Shatterpoint or Traitor or Zahn novels "are very poorly written". Only 30% of sw novels is real sh.. not to mention wonderful dark horse comics. Besides we aren't discussing how good EU products are or not. We are discussing if TOTJ is a direct vision of GL or not. And I have arguments that yes although GL didn't create TOTJ directly, he had big participation in it and was more involved in it than in any other EU product. Therefore your argumentation is pointless. To me what KOTOR presents is a poor man's copy of GL movies and nothing original. But have it your way. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> maybe someone else who knows more about star wars than I should be asking this question, but since no one is then I will ask it. I read someplace a while ago that everything that is star wars must pass approval by GL before it goes into production. Or in other words GL gets a copy of the story boards, manuscript, character design etc. So if GL does have to approve everything that carries the title of star wars, then if KOTOR is such a travestity to the star wars universe then why would he give it the go ahead? I mean if KOTOR just chews up the EU then spits it back out I can't see him saying OK to it, even if it was lining his pocket book. I would have thought that he would have said "well there are a few things that need to be changed before it goes to production". As I have said earlier I know little more about star wars than what is covered in the movies and what I have found on the internet (mainly because where I live I can't get any starwars books) so forgive me if I have some details wrong. Also I am not trying to upset anyone I just wanted to find out if anyone knew the answer to this. "The only difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits!" - Albert Einstein. "It's better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!" "You can try to kill me, you'd fail!, but you can try!" - Revan. "When you have exhausted all other possibilities whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes (a.k.a. Sir Arthur Conan Dole) "A lack of planning on your part, does not constitute an emergency on my part"
Nur Ab Sal Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 GL accepts these things only in theory. In fact clerks of Lucas Licensing oversee everything. He is too busy I guess. And some parts of his empire are completely or half-independent. Since Sue Rostoni and other Lucas licensing clerks are very busy in overseeing those 12-30 novels that Lucasbooks publish a year they have simply no time in controlling Lucasarts and these guys do whatever they want. And for KOTOR's tragedy even Lucasarts wasn't involved in the project heavily. All content, storyline, technology, dialogs, concept art were made by bioware and even LA that always treated EU frivously didn't oversee Bioware! If at least one of Lucas Licensing redactors would be involved, then we wouldn't have all those EU errors and contradictions. Besides to me Bioware devs are just lazy. First they copied storyline and some NPCs almost DIRECTLY from Neverwinter Nights. Second they didn't evev read those few sources about ancient era. "Tales of the Jedi Companion" has 176 pages. Was is sooo difficult to read it and adapt KOTOR so it could be correct? HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
Stargate: 2000 Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 GL almost never advices writers and creators of EU. Writers like Zahn or othersdeal with Lucas Licensing clerks like Sue Rostoni. Lucas probably doesn't know about 90% of things that comprises EU. the example of TOTJ is exceptional becouse Lucas was involved in it by himself. Even Thrawn Trilogy was checked by Lucas Licensing not by Lucas! To me fact that EU must be coherent is obvious. If Star Wars as a whole (movies+EU) presents one vision of some fictional universe than all elements like books and games must not contradict each other. Otherwise Star Wars will convert into nonsense instead being convincing vision of some far galaxy. Besides vulgar copy of master Yoda is clear evidence of devs' lack of originality. the ancient era was time of low-tech and there weren't any "cybernetic implants" 4000 years ago. Not to mention that there was no jedi council 4000 years ago - instead great convocations were deciding about order's most important things. One master could train more than one apprentice. Jedi could marry and love. And title 'darth" appeared 3000 years later. And so on... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> but its not one vision because everyone would have their own vision of the star wars universe, now if GL did all the work then yes it would be one vision but when multiple people are in the mix then it becomes a colective idea with changes being made with every new addition of material (not trying to argue here just helping correct this sentence and set the stange for a slightly different aguement ). Also has GL ever said when the title of darth came into use? jsut currious, I mean isn't it possible that it could have been used prior to. Also who first wrote the title of "Darth" into comics? I don't know how to explain this but if your going to say "well if it wasn't before [insert name of comic] then its incorrect" then I have to say what about egypt (going kinda abstract to sorta prove a point her so stay with me for just a little while longer) prior to the early 1900's we knew next to nothing about egypt and with every new discovery the history books had to be changed. Prior to the acctual discovery of a tomb the arciologist(sp?) would have been thought wrong or just plain nuts but after the discovery he would have been called a visionary and given honors for his contribution to history. SO why couldn't the same thing sorta be applied to KOTOR/EU I mean if no one used the titles of darth prior to [instert name of comic] then why couldn't it have been lost or forgotten about or whatever other means you would like to apply to this topic? "The only difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits!" - Albert Einstein. "It's better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!" "You can try to kill me, you'd fail!, but you can try!" - Revan. "When you have exhausted all other possibilities whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes (a.k.a. Sir Arthur Conan Dole) "A lack of planning on your part, does not constitute an emergency on my part"
Stargate: 2000 Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 GL accepts these things only in theory. In fact clerks of Lucas Licensing overseeeverything. He is too busy I guess. And some parts of his empire are completely or half-independent. Since Sue Rostoni and other Lucas licensing clerks are very busy in overseeing those 12-30 novels that Lucasbooks publish a year they have simply no time in controlling Lucasarts and these guys do whatever they want. And for KOTOR's tragedy even Lucasarts wasn't involved in the project heavily. All content, storyline, technology, dialogs, concept art were made by bioware and even LA that always treated EU frivously didn't oversee Bioware! If at least one of Lucas Licensing redactors would be involved, then we wouldn't have all those EU errors and contradictions. Besides to me Bioware devs are just lazy. First they copied storyline and some NPCs almost DIRECTLY from Neverwinter Nights. Second they didn't evev read those few sources about ancient era. "Tales of the Jedi Companion" has 176 pages. Was is sooo difficult to read it and adapt KOTOR so it could be correct? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ok thanks for explaing that, I honestly didn't know so thanks agian "The only difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits!" - Albert Einstein. "It's better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!" "You can try to kill me, you'd fail!, but you can try!" - Revan. "When you have exhausted all other possibilities whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes (a.k.a. Sir Arthur Conan Dole) "A lack of planning on your part, does not constitute an emergency on my part"
Nur Ab Sal Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 Also has GL ever said when the title of darth came into use? jsut currious, I mean isn't it possible that it could have been used prior to. Also who first wrote the title of "Darth" into comics? I don't know how to explain this but if your going to say "well if it wasn't before [insert name of comic] then its incorrect" then I have to say what about egypt (going kinda abstract to sorta prove a point her so stay with me for just a little while longer) prior to the early 1900's we knew next to nothing about egypt and with every new discovery the history books had to be changed. Prior to the acctual discovery of a tomb the arciologist(sp?) would have been thought wrong or just plain nuts but after the discovery he would have been called a visionary and given honors for his contribution to history. SO why couldn't the same thing sorta be applied to KOTOR/EU I mean if no one used the titles of darth prior to [instert name of comic] then why couldn't it have been lost or forgotten about or whatever other means you would like to apply to this topic? "Bane of the Sith" explains how title "darth" appeared. It is bioware's laziness that they didn't make any effort to read this 6-page long shortstory and adapt KOTOR to EU. Why are you trying to excuse their slackness? Yes it could be explained the way you say, but it STILL SUCKS - if we have to invent such things like you make, only becouse morons that were responsible for the storyline were just too lazy to read stuff related to KOTOR times. And you know how long they were doing the storyline? 3 damn years. Enough time to explore this part of star wars and avoid any mistakes I guess. HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
justabloke Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 Nur, given that you obviously dislike KotOR so much, why are you here? As to the EU
Nur Ab Sal Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 I dislike KOTOR's errors but I like the game. I love ancient era so I'll always bash lazy devs who cannot show that they respect EU. Reborn emperor is another thing similar to KOTOR that destroys EU coherency. HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
Stargate: 2000 Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 Also has GL ever said when the title of darth came into use? jsut currious, I mean isn't it possible that it could have been used prior to. Also who first wrote the title of "Darth" into comics? I don't know how to explain this but if your going to say "well if it wasn't before [insert name of comic] then its incorrect" then I have to say what about egypt? (going kinda abstract to sorta prove a point here so stay with me for just a little while longer) prior to the early 1900's we knew next to nothing about egypt and with every new discovery the history books had to be changed. Prior to the acctual discovery of a tomb the arciologist(sp?) would have been thought wrong or just plain nuts but after the discovery he would have been called a visionary and given honors for his contribution to history. SO why couldn't the same thing sorta be applied to KOTOR/EU I mean if no one used the titles of darth prior to [instert name of comic] then why couldn't it have been lost or forgotten about or whatever other means you would like to apply to this topic? "Bane of the Sith" explains how title "darth" appeared. It is bioware's laziness that they didn't make any effort to read this 6-page long shortstory and adapt KOTOR to EU. Why are you trying to excuse their slackness? Yes it could be explained the way you say, but it STILL SUCKS - if we have to invent such things like you make, only becouse morons that were responsible for the storyline were just too lazy to read stuff related to KOTOR times. And you know how long they were doing the storyline? 3 damn years. Enough time to explore this part of star wars and avoid any mistakes I guess. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> thanks for the info I didn't know, also I am not trying to explain their laziness I was just asking if it could be explained away that way thats all. Also I didn't know they worked on the script for three years. "The only difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits!" - Albert Einstein. "It's better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt!" "You can try to kill me, you'd fail!, but you can try!" - Revan. "When you have exhausted all other possibilities whatever remains, however improbable must be the truth." - Sherlock Holmes (a.k.a. Sir Arthur Conan Dole) "A lack of planning on your part, does not constitute an emergency on my part"
Nur Ab Sal Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 Bioware got the project from Lucasarts in July 2000. KOTOR gone gold July 2003. And your explanation of origins of title darth is good but "Bane of the Sith" did it in more exciting way. That's why I'm pissed of that it was ignored (like plenty of other things) HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
Azure79 Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 I have to agree with Nur Ab Sal on the visual universe Bioware created. I prefered the visuals portrayed in the comics(Tales of the Jedi) as more fitting in depicting the galaxy 4000 years before the movies. While KotOR is a great game with cool characters and a great storyline,(sorry Nur Ab Sal, I enjoyed the storyline and Reven immensely ) the graphics show a extremely modern looking world, with weapons, ships and clothing flashier and more streamlined than those in the movies. The comics on the other hand show us a world with archaic but powerful looking ships with ridges and spires protruding from them. The characters are also dressed in flowing robes and the many of the jedi don gauntlet like gloves and thick shoulder pads and partial armor for their torsos and legs. Their lightsabers possess a more archaic look as well. Overall the comics give us a world that makes us believe these really are ancient times compared to the SW movies. I was hoping for visuals akin to the comics in KotOR, but I still enjoyed the graphics in the game as well. I suppose they would seem anachronistic to those who enjoyed the visuals of the comics. I guess Bioware was aiming for mass appeal and wanted gamers not familiar with EU to feel that they were in the SW world they are familiar with.
justabloke Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 Nur, we are going to have to agree to disagree. What you see as errors I see as valid extrapolations. What you see as laziness I see as an attempt not to get mired in the BS of the EU and create something that feels like SW, which, IMNSHO, KotOR did. Sure it borrowed from the movies. But why not, I think we can agree that they are good stories, can
Nur Ab Sal Posted September 26, 2004 Posted September 26, 2004 True KOTOR at least is able to show most basic ideals of SW. But still don't forget that GL really participated in creating TOTJ and so it is also his vision of ancient star wars that had been ignored by bioware. While I can tolerate story of Revan I can't tolerate obvious copying of movies (sith fighters ehhhh...) and ignoring TOTJ. To me all lore of ancient jedi is in how they differ from Mace Windu and Yoda and yet how they are similar. I liked the vision of ancient jedi as independent wanderers similar to medieval samurai and KOTOR portraited them the same as prequels (strong unified order that controls jedi strictly). Despite I like prequel vision of jedi too. TOTJ at least gives me feel that jedi who lived 4000 years ago were different. HERMOCRATES: Nur Ab Sal was one such king. He it was, say the wise men of Egypt, who first put men in the colossus, making many freaks of nature at times when the celestial spheres were well aligned. SOCRATES: This I doubt. We are hearing a child's tale.
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