NHL Lockout

[Oerwinde]

After doing a little looking at whats actually happening, I've changed my stance on the whole thing. The players were asked why they are dead set against a salary cap and their reason was roster stability. NHL rosters tend to be pretty stable year after year allowing fans to really get attached to the teams who generally have the same players for years. A salary cap would cause teams to juggle the players to meet the cap, trading expensive players for cheap ones and such. This is not a good thing.

 

The players actually did propose a starting point for the negotiations, despite Gary Betteman saying otherwise. They proposed a 5% salary rollback, changes to the entry level system, a luxury tax on team salaries over 50 million, etc, all things that would save teams millions of dollars. This proposal was rejected flat out because it didn't include a salary cap.

 

The way I'm seeing it, this is more the owners fault than the players. Sure you can say that the players are greedy for not just accepting the cap and taking the 50% pay cut or whatever, but come on, if the owners hadn't been paying them 8 million a year in the first place, it wouldn't have happened. Both sides need to compromise, and only one side is doing so.

 

Your thoughts?

[GhostofAnakin]

IMO, the players are still at fault. Here's why the argument about "it's the owners who paid them the rediculous amounts of money in the first place" doesn't hold water. One word: Collusion (sp?). If teams DID get together and agreed not to outbit each other, the players and players' union would be crying collusion right away. Players know they can get teams to bid on them and bump up their salaries because they know that the owners can't get together and say "you know, lets all agree not to give this guy more than $3 million" because then the player and his union rep would be crying collusion.

 

I'm sorry, but salary caps work in basketball and football, so until someone can actually explain why hockey players should be any different, I'm going to look at them as greedy bastards.

 

On a sidenote, Bob Goodenough is nothing but a self-serving egomaniac who has been giving the players bad advise. He doesn't care about the players or the state of hockey, all he cares about is his reputation and keeping his "unbeaten" streak in terms of never giving in. If the players agreed to a salary cap, then in essence, Goodenough "lost" and he'll never allow that.

[Oerwinde]

IMO, the players are still at fault.  Here's why the argument about "it's the owners who paid them the rediculous amounts of money in the first place" doesn't hold water.  One word: Collusion (sp?).  If teams DID get together and agreed not to outbit each other, the players and players' union would be crying collusion right away.  Players know they can get teams to bid on them and bump up their salaries because they know that the owners can't get together and say "you know, lets all agree not to give this guy more than $3 million" because then the player and his union rep would be crying collusion.

 

I'm sorry, but salary caps work in basketball and football, so until someone can actually explain why hockey players should be any different, I'm going to look at them as greedy bastards.

 

On a sidenote, Bob Goodenough is nothing but a self-serving egomaniac who has been giving the players bad advise.  He doesn't care about the players or the state of hockey, all he cares about is his reputation and keeping his "unbeaten" streak in terms of never giving in.  If the players agreed to a salary cap, then in essence, Goodenough "lost" and he'll never allow that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

There is a difference here though. Football and Basketball have soft caps that change depending on league revenues. Gary Betteman wanted a hard cap of 31 million dollars per team. Thats lower than the payroll of the Pittsburg Penguins. Which has the lowest payroll of all NHL teams. I'm not disputing that the players are paid too much. I'm just saying that negotiations are supposed to be compromises. The league is refusing to compromise. There are other options besides a hard cap, but they refuse to look at any of them.

 

Also with the collusion point, its not like they're cheating the guy out of money. The owners set the market price for players, and if they all agree someone isn't worth more than 3 million, theres nothing wrong with that.

[Weiser_Cain]

The only thing I can add to this conversation is that I don't really care about hockey...

[Volourn]

This is 100% the owners' fault. These guys are (mostly) billionairs and they're whining about money losses. These guys were intelligent enough businessmen to make that kind of money yet somehow mismanage their money for their hockey teams. Sorry, it is their fault.

 

I don't blame the players for accepting what money they can get. EVERYONE whining about the players would accept the money too no questions asked.

 

100% the owners fault.

 

Only idiots think otherwise.

 

On top of this, the owners have not negotiated at all with the players. It's their way or the highway. I'm glad the players told them to screw off. At least try to negotiate.

 

Period.

[kumquatq3]

Eh good riddence. It is a sport that needs a serious shake up, and the owners are smart to not accept anything less.

[Volourn]

"the owners are smart to not accept anything less."

 

Smart? They and their stupidity caused this.

[DB Cooper]

^The owners don't wish to lose a season. They lose money for every game not played.

 

My stance; it is not the fault of the owners or the players, but the fans. It's the stupidity of the fans who continue to pay the increased prices when the union negotiate these salaries, the owners concede to pay the salaries, and in turn bump up the prices to compensate.

 

It is difficult to say the owners are greedy when they can sell out an arena and get 25,000 people to pay $100 to sit near the ice, $30 for parking, and $8 for a watered down Miller-Lite. Or $8.50 for a Molson...

[kumquatq3]

"the owners are smart to not accept anything less."

 

Smart? They and their stupidity caused this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Hey, it very well could have been (but it's not like the players are clean...) but they are smart to do whatever it takes to fix the sport now.

[Volourn]

They aren't fixing it; though.

 

Let's see what they have done here.

 

1. Refuse to negotiate at all. If you think the oweners wer enegotitaing with the players in good faith you are sadly mistaken. They were playing ahrdball hoping the players would blink. They didn't.

 

2. The lockout helps NO ONE. Doesn't help the players, the fans, the owners, or NHL employees. Not to mention all the other businesses that will lose money from the NHL lockdown.

 

So, again, how are they fixing it?

 

Basically, the owners are crying because the players won't bark when they demand it.

 

The owners are 100% to blame for this. Afterall, they sign the checks and they decide how much to pay the players. And, only selfish fans would even think of blaming the palyers for accepting the million dollar checks whent hose same fans would gobble up those contracts if offered in a heartbeat no questions asked.

[Beerfish]

So how do you solve the problem now Volourn. Let's hear your grand plan.

 

Some of the owners are to blame for the predicament but not all. Alot of the players are so out of the real world it's pathetic. The owners negotiated a bad deal last time around, they want to negotiate a better one this time around no problem there in my mind.

[Dakoth]

So how do you solve the problem now Volourn.  Let's hear your grand plan.

 

Some of the owners are to blame for the predicament but not all.  Alot of the players are so out of the real world it's pathetic.  The owners negotiated a bad deal last time around, they want to negotiate a better one this time around no problem there in my mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Quite frankly there is no solution. This is something that happens in every sport and shows what profesional athletes, and club owners are all about. While I can not blame them for taking the money given them by the owners I can blame them for being so out of touch with reality as to think they deserve it. Lets look at the benefits of being a pro athlete shall we.

 

1)Fame: Most athletes can be fairly certain they will be recognized at least all over the US if not the world.

 

2)Fortune: While league minimums are way lower than what a superstar would get, most are more than the average person would get in 2 to 3 years working.

 

3)World travel: Most of these people see more of the US, or the world than even some poloticians. While some of you might not see that as a perk I do.

 

All this bickering about money between the players and the owners is getting old. Play the damn game since it was your love for the game that brought this far and not your love of the money. On the flip side loosen the damn puse strings, if you liked the game enough to buy a team realise you might not make money with the venture.

 

IMO it is nothing more than the 2 sides fighting over who is more important to the game. When in all honesty they are equally important to the game.

[GhostofAnakin]

This is 100% the owners' fault. These guys are (mostly) billionairs and they're whining about money losses. These guys were intelligent enough businessmen to make that kind of money yet somehow mismanage their money for their hockey teams. Sorry, it is their fault.

 

I don't blame the players for accepting what money they can get. EVERYONE whining about the players would accept the money too no questions asked.

 

100% the owners fault.

 

Only idiots think otherwise.

 

On top of this, the owners have not negotiated at all with the players. It's their way or the highway. I'm glad the players told them to screw off. At least try to negotiate.

 

Period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sorry, but they're not all billionaires. Not even (most) of them. There are about 5 or 6 franchises that actually generated big bucks, with the rest either breaking even or losing money.

 

I blame the 5 or 6 owners with the big pockets, but at the same time, all the players keep coming across as greedy because they can't accept a clamp on their salaries that are, by in large, way too high.

[Volourn]

"The owners negotiated a bad deal last time around, they want to negotiate a better one this time around no problem there in my mind."

 

Wrong. They do not want to negotiate with the players. the owners have made that fact very clear.

 

How would I do things?

 

For starters, if I were the woeners, i would negotiate in good faith. Don't try to bully the players and threaten them with a lockout just because they won't fall into your demands. Negotiate in good faith.

 

Secondly, if I were an owner, I would not pay a player soemthing that a) he doesn't deserve, and/or B) I can't afford.

 

Example 1: Jaromir Yagr may be worth $10 mil (debateable after his last 3 years of average play); but if you can't afford it; don't pay it. I'm looking at you Washington D.C.

 

Example 2: Bobby Holik is not worth $9 mil under *any* circumstances. Simply don't pay him it even if you can afford it. I'm looking at you, NY, NY.

 

 

Thirdly, if you want the players to be more willing to accept lower salaries (NO ONE likes a pay cut so why should they be any different; I hate hypocritical fans espicially the ones on this board) give them something in return. How about more job security. It's so easy for a team to "release" (aka FIRE) a player decides he no longer wants to play for a team they get **** on by both the league and fans (SEE: Alexnader Daige and Eric Lindros). Get rid of these lame ass "morality clauses" or the "you can't do x activity because its dangerous clauses). Seriosuly, if youe xpect someone who was being paid $5 mil a year to only accept $2 mil; really expect to make cocnessions; but the owners don't want that. They want to pay less; but demand more. Hahaha. Lameos.

 

 

"Sorry, but they're not all billionaires."

 

The point is theya re all rich. if not billionairs; theya re most assuredly millioanirs. And, theya re all successful business owners. So, why are these obviously smart people being so retarded in handling their finances?

 

 

"I blame the 5 or 6 owners with the big pockets, but at the same time,"

 

What a cop out. Blame them all. the NY Rangers may be the biggest spenders; but you forget the Rangers make money so they aren't doing nothing wrong in that sense. It's teams like Calgary whoa re stupid enough to spend money they don't have. That's retarded. Period.

 

 

"all the players keep coming across as greedy because they can't accept a clamp on their salaries that are, by in large, way too high."

 

Bull. To me, they come out looking as employees who are trying to get the best deal for themselves. That's not greed; that's intelligence. Any other employee including you would do the same. Stop lying to evryone including yourself. If someone offered you $4 mil to play hockey you would do it. It's not up to the player's to be the teams' accountants; that's up to the teams to handle. Duh.

 

 

"Lets look at the benefits of being a pro athlete shall we."

 

Now that that's out of the way; let's look at the negatives:

 

1. There are only around 1000 NHL players max. You very much are the best of the best. The best should always get paid the best. Period.

 

2. You have a 20 year max in your chosen profession. (guys like Mark Messier are the exception who, btw, looks to be screwed big time now...)

 

3. Injuries. Injuries are huge. Not only can they end your career prematurely; but that's a heck of a lot of pain you have to go through just to "play a game" or 'do your job". About 1000 players or so in the elague; about half of them suffer some sort of injury each season. That's a very high injury rate. Theyd eserve higher than normal checks for that.

 

4. Dealing with the fans' bull****. I hate fans. Fans are the most selfish, greedy, pathetic, overbearing, evil, scummy, loser group I have ever had the displeasure of knowing. I hate, hate, ahte them. They are so self egotistical that it's all about them. Bah. I hate 'em. Anyone who has to put up with that kind of crap deserves LOADS OF CASH.

 

5. As above, the stupid "morality" and 'don't do x activity" type clauses are worth lots of cash on their own.

 

6. All the traveling which either limits your chances of even having a family or keeps you from having a family in the first place is not good.

 

So, sorry, there are more negative effects to being an athlete than positives. You lose.

 

 

"Alot of the players are so out of the real world it's pathetic."

 

No. The fans are so out of the real world it's pathetic.

[Dakoth]

Volourn I don't know if that was directed towards me or not but I feel I need to point some things out.

 

1. There are only around 1000 NHL players max. You very much are the best of the best. The best should always get paid the best. Period.

 

I don't dissagree they should be paid the best. I just think it is funny they think they Deserve millions.

 

2. You have a 20 year max in your chosen profession. (guys like Mark Messier are the exception who, btw, looks to be screwed big time now...)

 

Irrelevant to any argument. As I said even the base slary for one year is more than most people will see in 2 to three. So the amount of money they make negates the need to work anymore.

 

3. Injuries. Injuries are huge. Not only can they end your career prematurely; but that's a heck of a lot of pain you have to go through just to "play a game" or 'do your job". About 1000 players or so in the elague; about half of them suffer some sort of injury each season. That's a very high injury rate. Theyd eserve higher than normal checks for that.

 

A copout used by every pro athlete. Construction workers, firefighters, police officers, and correctional officers not only can get injuries that can end their carrers prematurly but don't have the luxury of an outrageous salary to fall back on if it happens.

 

4. Dealing with the fans' bull****. I hate fans. Fans are the most selfish, greedy, pathetic, overbearing, evil, scummy, loser group I have ever had the displeasure of knowing. I hate, hate, ahte them. They are so self egotistical that it's all about them. Bah. I hate 'em. Anyone who has to put up with that kind of crap deserves LOADS OF CASH.

 

I can't really dissagree with you on that. Unfortunatley anyone who deals with the public must put up with that type of stuff. I have not seen anyone say sales clerks should be paid millions for dealing with the public.

 

5. As above, the stupid "morality" and 'don't do x activity" type clauses are worth lots of cash on their own.

 

This is a mixed bag. Should taking personal freedoms away from a player be worth lots of cash? Well ask Jay Williams what he thinks about it right now. (Before things get messy with me having the wrong name. Maybe a Chicago native that is an avid fan could confirm or deny if it was Jay that took a fall on the bike.)

 

6. All the traveling which either limits your chances of even having a family or keeps you from having a family in the first place is not good.

 

Once again some thing normal people have to do. I have a friend that travels sometimes six months out of the year all over the US. He is a claims asessment agent for State Farm. As a matter of fact he had been down in Florida asessing damage from the first hurricane to roll through. He is managing to get maried and doesn't even have the luxury of retirering at 35 if he wants.

 

So, sorry, there are more negative effects to being an athlete than positives. You lose.

 

There are negatives but with the exception of 1 they are the same for most normal jobs. As I said in my above post these strikes are more to try and prove who is more important to the game than anything else, and yes volourn I agree the owners are just as much blame as the players.

[mkreku]

The owners had 6 different suggestions for a solution up for grabs the last couple of days before the lock-out. The NHLPA rejected them all and they did not have any new suggestions of their own. From what I could see, only one side was interested in a solution, and it wasn't Bob.

 

The owners have been paying these ridiculous sums of money, that is true. But it is the same owners who are now saying enough is enough. Nothing wrong with that. You can't run a business that loses 280 million dollars a year. I'm sad to see the NHL suffer, but at least lots of players are coming over to Sweden to play this year so we'll have the best hockey in the world anyhow.

[Volourn]

"I'm sad to see the NHL suffer, but at least lots of players are coming over to Sweden to play this year so we'll have the best hockey in the world anyhow."

 

See what I mean.. selfish fans.

 

 

"The owners had 6 different suggestions for a solution up for grabs the last couple of days before the lock-out."

 

IIRC, most if not all these 'suggestions" were all about artificially limiting salaries ie. a salary cap. I hate salary caps.

 

 

Dakoth:

[Dakoth]

See what I mean.. selfish fans. 

 

 

Dakoth: 

 

 

As I said in my post you'll get no arguement from me about that.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

"I'm sad to see the NHL suffer, but at least lots of players are coming over to Sweden to play this year so we'll have the best hockey in the world anyhow."

 

Guess you were thinking too fast, missing skipping the word 'second' before 'best', eh?

[mkreku]

Guess you were thinking too fast, missing skipping the word 'second' before 'best', eh?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

6-5.

[Sarjahurmaaja.]

NOT LISTENING!

 

---

 

Seriously, WTF?

 

From 5-1 lead to 6-5 loss? W T F?

 

W T F?!?

[I don't like usernames]

The point is theya re all rich. if not billionairs; theya re most assuredly millioanirs. And, theya re all successful business owners. So, why are these obviously smart people being so retarded in handling their finances?

 

4. Dealing with the fans' bull****. I hate fans. Fans are the most selfish, greedy, pathetic, overbearing, evil, scummy, loser group I have ever had the displeasure of knowing. I hate, hate, hate them. They are so self egotistical that it's all about them. Bah. I hate 'em. Anyone who has to put up with that kind of crap deserves LOADS OF CASH.

 

"Alot of the players are so out of the real world it's pathetic."

 

No. The fans are so out of the real world it's pathetic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't really care very much about hockey (don't hate either it though) but weighing in on this topic as a European I'd dare say that hockey players aren't paid nearly as much as some soccer players (which is a sport I really, really hate).

 

If all (successful) business owners handled their financial affairs impeccably all the time I know a lot of colleagues of mine who'd be out of a job. Making mistakes now and then even really big ones is human.

 

I must say I don't agree with statement 4. There's at least two groups of people who are to the best of my knowledge much, much worse than fans: Judges and Politicians, though that is just my personal opinion.

[Volourn]

"must say I don't agree with statement 4. There's at least two groups of people who are to the best of my knowledge much, much worse than fans: Judges and Politicians, though that is just my personal opinion."

 

LOL