A few things that bugged me about KOTOR

[Judge Hades]

Yet, Torment is one of the greatest games on the PC ever.

No, it is not.

[EnderAndrew]

Someday child, you may see the light.

[Judge Hades]

When they make a game that has the story aspects of PS:T but allows me to play my character instead the developer's then that will be a kickarse games.

[EnderAndrew]

Hey, I'm not knocking Fallout. And 9 times out of 10, I prefer a game that allows me freedom to play different character types for replayability. I like having alot of control over character creation. I like the SPECIAL rules-system despite a few flaws.

 

I think Planescape Torment over-came all that was great despite being limited.

[nightcleaver]

~shrugs~

 

I'll do what I always do. Keep my computer the way it is until I hit a game I can't play and then I'll upgrade per the recommendations. It odd though, I had smooth performance and fast loading times even though my system isn't as good as that other fellows.

The thing I left out is that my 5200 is a PCI card, and my power supply shouldn't technically be able to support it. I *do* run on high textures, (runs just as fast or slow as low textures... same wierdness I have with NWN, incidentally) that's one advantage, but I really care about gameplay. It's nice for taking screenshots, but it has a lot of hiccups, and I haven't seen an in-engine cinematic play smoothly since I turned on per-pixel lighting effects the first time.

Also, it's a Dell, so that pretty much destroys the option of upgrading. If it weren't a Dell, and if I had saved for maybe an Ibuypower, I wouldn't have this problem at all.

I hate myself.

 

The fact that you apparently run it better is odd, to say the least. Fragmented harddisk? I don't think so, but possibly. I like to think I maintain it well.

 

And the loading times are fast, if you didn't catch that. Much faster than X-box, it's just the playing and the in-engine cinematics that drag and hiccup.

[EnderAndrew]

You can take your system, and put it in a new case.

 

You can keep most of your components, and move to a new motherboard, allowing you to upgrade.

 

Egad, PCI video card? What is the world coming to?

[Opus131]

Yet, Torment is one of the greatest games on the PC ever.

No, it is not.

Yes it is...

[JohnDoe]

Yet, Torment is one of the greatest games on the PC ever.

No, it is not.

Ah, thats the problem with most people on this forum. You're too arrogant to differentiate between a quality game and a game that you, personally, like.

[Judge Hades]

No, it is not.

Yes it is...

No, it is not.

[Judge Hades]

Ah, thats the problem with most people on this forum. You're too arrogant to differentiate between a quality game and a game that you, personally, like.

I am not going to play a game I don't like. I have played PS:T twice and its a good game for what it is, but lets not overlook its weaknesses. Or worse yet, mistake its weaknesses as strengths.

[JohnDoe]

Ah, thats the problem with most people on this forum. You're too arrogant to differentiate between a quality game and a game that you, personally, like.

I am not going to play a game I don't like. I have played PS:T twice and its a good game for what it is, but lets not overlook its weaknesses. Or worse yet, mistake its weaknesses as strengths.

Poor combat is a weakness.

 

Not being able to play a character with its own history is not a weakness. Its a design decision, which strengthens parts of the game, and only reduces the fun for people who believe the game should be able to include the ability their half-gnome/half-ogre paladin/mage who had his right arm chopped off by Helm himself after their adventures in the Underdark.

[Judge Hades]

I rather just play a halfling rogue.

[nightcleaver]

You can take your system, and put it in a new case.

 

You can keep most of your components, and move to a new motherboard, allowing you to upgrade.

 

Egad, PCI video card?

[alanschu]

The weaknesses of KotOR are:

 

Lack of full character creation in comparison to the Star Wars d20 PnP.

Poor implementation of the PnP rules.

The linear nature of the story.

The lack of the ability to just explore a planet or region of space.

The complete and total non-challenge of a game.

Linearity is probably always going to be a difficult hurdle, especially if you just consider the story.

 

 

The last game I remember where I could complete plot points in a non-linear fashion was the Fallout series (and before that Ultima VII).

 

Even games championed for being "non-linear" like the Baldur's Gate series and Morrowind are actually completely linear stories. However, people see the ability to do random side quests as being "non-linear."

 

 

Of course some aspects of linearity are required since a story tends to progress, and situations will only occur if past actions have occurred, but non-linearity I feel is actually quite the myth.

 

Having said that, I do not think that a linear game is necessarily a bad one. Games such as Half-Life and Planescape: Torment are two of the best games ever made as far as I'm concerned.

[alanschu]

When they make a game that has the story aspects of PS:T but allows me to play my character instead the developer's then that will be a kickarse games.

Since that game doesn't exist, PST must be high ranking! :D

[alanschu]

lets not overlook its weaknesses.  Or worse yet, mistake its weaknesses as strengths.

The strengths of PS:T are a result of the "weakness" that is playing as TNO.

 

The story would not have been possible if you created your own character.

 

 

Playing as a random Halfling Rogue would not have allowed you to take part in TNO's quest, since only TNO could take part in it.

[alanschu]

On a side note Hades, it must really frustrate you to know that every game forces you to play a developer's character.

 

Fallout: Vault 13 member that has to get waterchip

Fallout2: Vault 13 hero's decendant

PST: The Nameless One

Baldur's Gate: A Bhaalspawn

Morrowind: The native people's decendant (can't remember their name)

 

I seriously cannot think of any quality game that has you NOT play a character that isn't entirely your own.

[carnifex]

x what!?

[Judge Hades]

On a side note Hades, it must really frustrate you to know that every game forces you to play a developer's character.

 

Fallout: Vault 13 member that has to get waterchip

Fallout2: Vault 13 hero's decendant

PST: The Nameless One

Baldur's Gate: A Bhaalspawn

Morrowind: The native people's decendant (can't remember their name)

 

I seriously cannot think of any quality game that has you NOT play a character that isn't entirely your own.

The only one it that list that forces you to play the developper's character is PS:T with TNO. All the rest has basic background history and then lets me to create any type of character I want.

[Fardragon]

On a side note Hades, it must really frustrate you to know that every game forces you to play a developer's character.

 

Fallout: Vault 13 member that has to get waterchip

Fallout2: Vault 13 hero's decendant

PST: The Nameless One

Baldur's Gate:  A Bhaalspawn

Morrowind: The native people's decendant (can't remember their name)

 

I seriously cannot think of any quality game that has you NOT play a character that isn't entirely your own.

The only one it that list that forces you to play the developper's character is PS:T with TNO. All the rest has basic background history and then lets me to create any type of character I want.

But I don't recall being able to play as a Jedi in Baldur's Gate!

[Topaz Quasar]

On a side note Hades, it must really frustrate you to know that every game forces you to play a developer's character.

 

Fallout: Vault 13 member that has to get waterchip

Fallout2: Vault 13 hero's decendant

PST: The Nameless One

Baldur's Gate: A Bhaalspawn

Morrowind: The native people's decendant (can't remember their name)

 

I seriously cannot think of any quality game that has you NOT play a character that isn't entirely your own.

Only MMORPG's actually make your character "entirely your own."

 

And about Morrowind: You were a reincarnation of an ancient leader as per a certain prophecy.

[alanschu]

On a side note Hades, it must really frustrate you to know that every game forces you to play a developer's character.

 

Fallout: Vault 13 member that has to get waterchip

Fallout2: Vault 13 hero's decendant

PST: The Nameless One

Baldur's Gate:  A Bhaalspawn

Morrowind: The native people's decendant (can't remember their name)

 

I seriously cannot think of any quality game that has you NOT play a character that isn't entirely your own.

The only one it that list that forces you to play the developper's character is PS:T with TNO. All the rest has basic background history and then lets me to create any type of character I want.

So you are saying you wanted to be a Bhaalspawn, Vault 13 decendant, or whatever?

 

Fact is that any cRPG forces you to play a developer's character.....since a developer has to create the possibility have playing that character. If you didn't like PS:T because it forced you to play The Nameless One, then you clearly did not understand the premise of the game.

 

At least Fallout provided some sort of non-linearity, and all Baldur's Gate did was let you choose a different class....but you were still the same character, and in Baldur's Gate 1 in particular, it was the same game regardless of what class you were, at least Baldur's Gate 2 had some class specific stuff as sidequests, but since you already stated that you absolutely do not like sidequests, we know where you stand on that one.

 

 

Simply because KotOR does not let you play the class you want to play, you decide to moan about it. Oddly enough though, you spend a whole heck of a lot of time on these forums. You're like someone that hates some person so much that you cannot help but spend all your time watching their every move so you can feel satisified when you see them do something wrong. Furthermore, you absolutely will play KOTOR 2 since you hate the game so much. You'll play through it just to notice how bad it is so that you can complain some more. It's just the type of person you are.

 

 

On a final note, there is nothing stopping you from playing KOTOR 2 not as a Jedi. It is only you that can choose to use a force power or use a lightsaber. The "Jedi" title can be merely ceremonial if you so preferred...but you would rather complain.

[nightcleaver]

I don't disagree that Torment had limited character creation. It was unbalanced, too.

 

...but I prefer playing the dev's character than no character at all. Fallout had awesome character creation, but that really didn't attach to the story at all. I felt like I was playing a strange entity, an extension of my will. It didn't feel like I was playing the main character, which PS: T did amazingly well. Someone argued elsewhere that character creation meant nothing if it couldn't be reflected in the game. Well, I agree, and I say character creation means nothing for character and story if it isn't reflected in the story. Honestly, I can't remember a single moment playing TNO felt meaningless, like I was just playing a game, but I felt that all the time in Fallout - and fallout was always FUN in combat and game, it always felt like something real was happening, but it just felt like I was playing a game, fiddling around and messing with game mechanics. The Trait's system, while it added character, was a nifty game mechanic, and had no effect on dialogue or story. If traits made your CHARACTER different, it wouldn't be "just a game mechanic". When you're watching a movie, you don't want to feel like you're watching a movie, and it's the same for games. You may feel that games are going to feel like games no matter what, but I (and I suspect most here) would totally disagree. You might cite that playing someone else's character ruins suspension of disbelief, but evidently tons of people manage just fine with "someone else's character", and there really isn't any way to totally expunge disbelief when you decide not to just let yourself ignore it when you're not playing yourself in the game.

 

Unless you're a developer, you can't put your own character in a game. At. All.

 

However, you can always "make your own character" and pretend there's enough there to define it as you, but you don't have to play an RPG to do that. Go play Star Wars: Galaxies or something. It has lots of character creation options, and it DOESN'T have Jedi.

 

Just to make sure: I'm not with the above poster, at all. Unlike him, I think I actually understand vaguely what your problem is.

[GhostofAnakin]

The funny thing is, I can use Hades One's own arguement against him.

 

I played Fallout 2, and the very thing that I didn't like about it, is the thing he complains about KOTOR: character selection.

 

I didn't like the characters that were available to me in Fallout 2. I didn't like the storyline, and never really felt immersed in the game play because I was always playing "someone else's character".

 

I think Hades One is suffering from a God complex, in that he thinks that just because KOTOR doesn't allow you to play a character HE wants to play (hell, the kind of character he wants to play doesn't even exist in the SW universe), then that means it's limiting.

[Judge Hades]

alanschu, have you even read the PnP material that KotOR is based on? Jedi is not a title. Also artificially limiting yourself in the character's abilities is metagaming and sorry, I just don't metagame.

 

Also I never said I don't like sidequests. I don't like pointless sidequests like stupid fed ex quests and the such. I also disagree with your assessment of Fallout. I went through the game more than a hundred times each with a different variance of character types. I am able to play the character as I wished and what makes sense. I dictate how my character is played and how he is developed.

 

In KotOR1 you can only choose three classes and by the time you get off the first planet that choice becomes irrelevant because now you are forced to play a Jedi. It doesn't matter which Jedi class we pick because each one basically plays the same.

 

Now in KotOR2 we have to be a Jedi at the beginning and since it doesn't matter which Jedi class we choose, since they all play the same, every character we play in the game will be the same. Talking about killing replay value, sheesh, Obsidian did a number on that one.

 

Quick question here: How can you not feel like you are watching a movie when you are watching a movie. I always feel like I am watching a movie when I am watching a movie. As the scenes play out I do a quick analysis of each one and store that in my memory so I could play it back in my mind later. You are just strange in that regard.