A few things that bugged me about KOTOR

[alanschu]

But you're still playing a developer's character in Fallout, even if the means of the game are different.

 

You could generally do things the bad way, or the good way. Now you could do the bad things through violence, manipulation, or perhaps persuasion....and the same goes for the good things. It was similar in KOTOR.

 

They only difference is that you can say that one character is good at one weapon type...whereas a different character specializes in a different skill (which you could still do to a different extent with feats in KOTOR).

 

 

And I still ran into similar problems with Fallout. Why were there times I couldn't talk my way through stuff, even though I had 10 charisma, 10 luck, and excellent speech skills? I should have been able to convince the evil dude in Junktown to just leave town, but I couldn't even try.

 

 

As for metagaming, why don't you do it? It just sounds like a convenient excuse to still complain even though you don't have play the game like a Jedi.

[GhostofAnakin]

As for metagaming, why don't you do it? It just sounds like a convenient excuse to still complain even though you don't have play the game like a Jedi.

He's using the obese person's excuse for why it's McDonald's fault they're fat.

 

They don't have the willpower to control themselves, so they need to blame someone else for making their indulgence so easy.

 

He doesn't HAVE to play as a Jedi. He can just as easily stock up on skills and feats suited for a soldier/bounty hunter, not use his lightsaber and use blasters instead, never click on the Force power options, etc. But apparently he can't control himself since BioWare made the options possible to choose.

[Judge Hades]

The primary difference in character development in Fallout and KotOR is that you have full control over your character's development (as you want the character to be in the full range of the rules system used) when in KotOR you were forced into the role of a Jedi.

 

A Metagamer is just as bad if not worse than a Powergamer.

 

Even in real life one cannot talk there way out of violence. Take a look at the Iraqi Information Minister during the war. He talked and talked and talked and still people got killed. All that talking did squat. There are somethings in life you can't talk yourself out of and that bullet will taste your gray matter.

[Child of Flame]

Let me see...

I have a Pentium 4 with 1.50 GHz

256MB of RAM

ATI Radeon 9000 series

 

What's that?

Baaaaaaaaad. <shudders>

[Child of Flame]

~shrugs~

 

I'll do what I always do. Keep my computer the way it is until I hit a game I can't play and then I'll upgrade per the recommendations. It odd though, I had smooth performance and fast loading times even though my system isn't as good as that other fellows.

The thing I left out is that my 5200 is a PCI card, and my power supply shouldn't technically be able to support it. I *do* run on high textures, (runs just as fast or slow as low textures... same wierdness I have with NWN, incidentally) that's one advantage, but I really care about gameplay. It's nice for taking screenshots, but it has a lot of hiccups, and I haven't seen an in-engine cinematic play smoothly since I turned on per-pixel lighting effects the first time.

Also, it's a Dell, so that pretty much destroys the option of upgrading. If it weren't a Dell, and if I had saved for maybe an Ibuypower, I wouldn't have this problem at all.

I hate myself.

 

The fact that you apparently run it better is odd, to say the least. Fragmented harddisk? I don't think so, but possibly. I like to think I maintain it well.

 

And the loading times are fast, if you didn't catch that. Much faster than X-box, it's just the playing and the in-engine cinematics that drag and hiccup.

GAH! Don't buy iBuypower whatever you DO! I had the worst experience with them!!! I got a defective machine three times in a row, and the guy on the other end of the tech support had such a thick Mexican accent (not Indian, Mexican) that I could barely understand him, and he knew less about computers than I did even though that was back when I had just got into modern ones. Save up for longer and get an Alienware, they're comparable in terms of price to a high end Dell system, or better yet, Voodoo. B)

[nightcleaver]

The primary difference in character development in Fallout and KotOR is that you have full control over your character's development (as you want the character to be in the full range of the rules system used) when in KotOR you were forced into the role of a Jedi.

 

A Metagamer is just as bad if not worse than a Powergamer.

 

Even in real life one cannot talk there way out of violence. Take a look at the Iraqi Information Minister during the war. He talked and talked and talked and still people got killed. All that talking did squat. There are somethings in life you can't talk yourself out of and that bullet will taste your gray matter.

You totally failed to understand what I said. We are NOT talking about the same thing here.

 

 

Have you ever read a book? What's a favorite?

[Carth Vader]

Go play Star Wars: Galaxies. It has lots of character creation options, and it DOESN'T have Jedi.

It does now, but not many.

[EnderAndrew]

Hades has said time and time again that he doesn't way to play Galaxies. He wants to play a Star Wars CRPG with Fallout style character creation that doesn't force him to play a Jedi.

 

Too bad that game doesn't exist. He could make that game with Fallout toolsets, he could play something else, or he could sit here and bitch.

 

Which one did you think he chose?

[Child of Flame]

Hades has said time and time again that he doesn't way to play Galaxies. He wants to play a Star Wars CRPG with Fallout style character creation that doesn't force him to play a Jedi.

 

Too bad that game doesn't exist. He could make that game with Fallout toolsets, he could play something else, or he could sit here and bitch.

 

Which one did you think he chose?

:( :lol:

[nightcleaver]

I think you guys are being a LITTLE hard on him, but he really should go do something more productive. As fun as it might be to show us things aren't as perfect as we think, it really doesn't do anything.

 

Sw: G does have Jedi, yes, but I was being sarcastic. As someone said another forum, if you want to play third republic soldier on the left, that's your game. And it seems that's what Hades wants to do, with his obsession over character creation. I find it mildly insulting that he thinks RPG's should be about character creation and fooling around rather than playing something with actual character development. From what I can tell, he'd be ultimately pleased if you just let him write his character on paper with an endless list of skills and some totally non-sequitar picture and roll a dice, pretending he was fighting something.

[EnderAndrew]

Look, I believe in giving a person the benefit of the doubt.

 

And I am all about free speech. Let Hades express his opinion. He's done it plenty of times. And personally, I have nothing against him. I even agree with him from time to time.

 

However, several people have expressed to him repeatedly that we understand his view points and have asked him to keep posting the same damn statement over and over again.

 

It's annoying.

[nightcleaver]

He's pretty harmless. Laugh it off; he won't be banned, and he's just a jerk.

 

Mind you, I was mostly talking to others about being too harsh, and I don't even think it's that big a deal... but it is adding to the number of posts that are off-topic and non-constructive argument oriented.

[Judge Hades]

As much as I b*tch and annoy people I expect a lil' annoyance back.

 

My favorite book? My favorite story of all time is John Milton's Paradise Lost.

[nightcleaver]

I don't think you understand; They don't want to fight, they want you to stop. It's not a matter of them standing up for themselves, it's a matter of them getting sick of you.

[alanschu]

A Metagamer is just as bad if not worse than a Powergamer.

 

Even in real life one cannot talk there way out of violence. Take a look at the Iraqi Information Minister during the war. He talked and talked and talked and still people got killed. All that talking did squat. There are somethings in life you can't talk yourself out of and that bullet will taste your gray matter.

How is a "metagamer" worse than a powergamer? It seems like a logical way for you to at least attempt to play the game you want to play with it, given the obvious limitations of the KOTOR game that you enjoy pointing out over and over.

 

And I know that it is not possible to talk your way out of violence at all, but as I said there wasn't even an option. Computer games cannot be as open ended as a pen and paper game. With my mad charming skills, my character wanted to try. Even if that meant trying unsuccessfully.

 

 

As for "complete" control over your character. Looking at it from the "developing your character" stance, the only difference is that you essentially get the title of Jedi. I will give you that with respect to "forcing" some stuff upon you. But aside from saying "Hey you're a Jedi now," you could still choose how to develop your character in terms of skills and feats and attribute points, as well as LS vs DS.

 

Was it implemented as well as Fallout....hell no.

 

 

BTW, Fallout 1 and 2 are my two favourite RPGs of all-time, and easily two of the most enjoyable games I have ever played, much more so than KOTOR....so it's not that I have a thing against Fallout.

[Judge Hades]

The character's past, such as being from a Vault or being part of the Madalorian Wars is up to the developer to decide. I have no problem with that, once I start playing the character he needs to be my character. Meaning I decide what skills he focuses on, what feats/perks he picks, what powers or lack of power he has, what class or classes he will be.

 

KotOR removes that choice by forcing you to play a Jedi. It forces you to choose a Jedi class which all played in the same way. In KotOR 2 you are forced to play a Jedi again. It removes all the previous character types you can play and introduces lame prestige classes. My favorite Star Wars class is the Scoundrel. I like playing the scoundrel class above all others and it pissed me off to no end that I couldn't finished KotOR with a maxed out scoundrel. It pisses me even more off that scoundrel isn't even a choice in its sequel.

[GhostofAnakin]

Do you not understand the basic underlining storyline? What you want would require a COMPLETE re-write of the story.

 

The fact that this should be given knowledge going in should tell you that perhaps this game isn't right for you. The fact that you got angry at having to play as a Jedi proves that you're not really good at understanding what a story is all about and connecting the dots that a)hmm you fight a Sith Lord so then b)that must mean I have Jedi powers.

[GhostofAnakin]

Oh and btw, to use your own arguement against you, I wanted to be a Jedi in Fallout, but I wasn't able to. Does that mean that game sucks because the developers wouldn't let me be the character that I wanted to play as?

 

See how rediculous your arguement is? If you still believe your arguement isn't rediculous, then explain to me how Fallout is better than KOTOR in allowing you to play as any character when it clearly did not give me the option to play as a Jedi.

[Judge Hades]

A non-force user can fight a force user and still kick his butt. Done it many a times in both versions of the Star Wars RPG.

 

If the story wasn't so narrow in the first place, which is a bad design in a CRPG, it wouldn't need a re-wrtie. It is still sad that a game released in 1997 has yet been surpassed.

[NInjaPirate]

GhostofAnakin, you are as bad as Hades_One, he complains about having to be a jedi, and you complain about how he complains about having to be a jedi. Just give it a rest we all know Hades won't stop.

[Judge Hades]

*Visceris sings to the tune of a bad 80's cartoon show them*

 

No one can stop the Hades because the Hades doesn't stop.

[NInjaPirate]

You are one strange strange child.

[GhostofAnakin]

A non-force user can fight a force user and still kick his butt. Done it many a times in both versions of the Star Wars RPG.

 

If the story wasn't so narrow in the first place, which is a bad design in a CRPG, it wouldn't need a re-wrtie. It is still sad that a game released in 1997 has yet been surpassed.

You didn't answer my question though.

 

I wanted to play a Jedi in Fallout. The game wouldn't let me. So then by your arguement the game sucks then right?

[Judge Hades]

Your basis is wrong however. Fallout is not part of the Star Wars universe therefore that option is not available due to the universe and setting rules that guides the game. Using Fallout as the basis, you would have made a better argument for them not letting you play a supermutant or a ghoul.

 

In the Star Wars RPG you have various races, classes, feats, and skills related and native to the setting. Stay within the setting and you would have a better argument.

[GhostofAnakin]

The setting means nothing to my arguement. My point is I wanted to play as a certain character type and wasn't allowed to. You complain that you can't play as a character you want to play as. We're both not allowed to play as a character we want. So therefore, by your logic, Fallout is a flawed game because it restricts you.

 

Also, the point is that in KOTOR there is NO other character that is central to the story than a Jedi. You are Revan. The story would not have worked if Revan was just a scoundrel or a smuggler. So keeping in mind that the story revolves around you being Revan, for your complaints to work, they'd have had to re-write who Revan was. Which is essentially what you're telling me I can't ask from Fallout. I want them to re-write the character so that Jedi are included in their little "universe". It's basically the same arguement.

 

Well, except the fact that I seem to grasp the fact that what I have suggested just wouldn't fit with the Fallout storyline.