Revolver Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 Doing a complete NWN module and then posting it to get feedback will probably be more of a learning experience of what a designer has to do everyday than anything else I can suggest. Hey Chris, have you or any of the other developers at Obsidian done a NWN module that we could perhaps download? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 we has met many good writers and most of them not know how to write. sound odd? most folks who write do so intuitively... they not know how they made their characters come to life. your average english class is no help neither 'cause such classes teach writing from wrong end. professors explain what an author did, but they rarely explain how an author accomplished the feat. teaching a class in dickens is dull. reason is 'cause it is easy to see what dickens was doing. takes a couple days to teach students to read dickens. teach students how to write like dickens is not same thing at all. could spend a lifetime teaching students how to write like dickens. look at it a different way... just 'cause you can understand what is going on in a matisse painting or a rodin sculpture not mean that you is gonna be able to paint like matisse or sculpt like rodin, does it? so why does folks seem to believe that 'cause they understand homer or joyce or proust that they is suddenly gonna be more able to write? oddly 'nuff you will find lots of classes at good universities that teach you How to paint or sculpt or compose, but rarely does you find a class that teaches you how to write. why is writing different? why is writers at harvard and yale and stanford and berkeley expected to teach themselves through a process of osmosis. maybe your university has a couple creative writing classes where a coven of freaky folks with funny clothes and bad hygiene tell each other that they like each others stuff but rarely is the process of writing deconstructed and taught. what a joke. don "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiliqua Posted February 15, 2004 Share Posted February 15, 2004 A writer can produce the goods if they have a competent editor work with them until they get it right, aka Geoffrey Archer. Of course this will only work if the writer has some basic talent. In the gaming industry I doubt that writers will get a job, if they need an editor to hold their hand through the creative process. Maybe that's why we don't play games because of their dialogue. "The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing that is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." John Stuart Mill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoBirds Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 In the gaming industry I doubt that writers will get a job, if they need an editor to hold their hand through the creative process. Maybe that's why we don't play games because of their dialogue. We don't? I bought King of Dragon Pass (a-sharp.com/kodp) and Teudogar and the Alliance with Rome (teudogar.com) for the dialog. And look at the interactive fiction (text games, Infocom style) community: they're going strong, and have four or five major authoring languages. Of course, those are 'indie' titles / freeware and the majority of shelf games involve little to no actual dialog. But that doesn't mean world-building and story-crafting are any less relevant. Some games I've loved just because they told the story well without cluttering it up with words. So I do agree that 'game writer' is a rather silly and non-relevant title. I'm saying that game designers wear a huge number of hats, and one of the hats is a writing hat, and is often neglected. Gromnir, I agree that looking at paintings doesn't make you able to paint, but all great painters (barring bizarre exceptions) have looked at paintings. And the craft of writing is most certainly taught in schools. Isn't this what being an English major is all about? The how-to-write section and the literary criticism section of my local Borders (combined) are bigger than the philosophy section, and nearly as big as the history section. I'll check out the books you've posted about. A bigger library is always a good thing. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 "so why does folks seem to believe that 'cause they understand homer or joyce or proust that they is suddenly gonna be more able to write?" all those books of literary criticism does not teach you how to write. we has admitted already that knowing what an author was doing is a good thing... but that not teach you how to write. and no, english classes does not teach you how to write literature. looks at a text that teaches folks how to draw. is filled with practical exercises on improving technique. you is given step-by-step instructions 'bout how to work in perspective and create texture and form and how to use light and hundreds of other things both mundane and arcane. sit in on a class where folks is learning how to make paintings as 'posed to one where folks is learning 'bout paintings. we bet you can tell the difference 'tween the two in 'bout half a second. so why is it so hard sometimes to tell difference 'tween class that is teaching you how to write as 'posed to a class teaching you 'bout writing? books of literary criticism does not teach the process of writing, does it? HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarjahurmaaja. Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 You don't learn to draw by watching pretty pictures. You learn to draw by trying to create something similar to those pretty pictures. I believe the same thing applies to writing, too. PS: Gromnir, that text doesn't teach you how to draw. It tells you what you have to do in order to learn how to draw. 9/30 -- NEVER FORGET! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 "PS: Gromnir, that text doesn't teach you how to draw. It tells you what you have to do in order to learn how to draw. " accepting the above as true for the moment, does books of literary criticism tell you what to do in order to learn how to write? HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarjahurmaaja. Posted February 16, 2004 Share Posted February 16, 2004 No, I don't think so. Never said so, either. 9/30 -- NEVER FORGET! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubert the Beardless Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 Hi everybody ! Just found this very nice forum. (I like dark backgrounds, staring 10-12 hours to the screen you learn to appreciate little things like this one) This particular topic got my interest ... hey, who would'n be curious to know what the big-shots' opinions are ? Ain't no developer -no game developer to be exact- actually I am an architect. I know what implementing a vision means. I also played with the idea to reorient myself and get into the game development business. I've learnt a lot of tehniques in order to implement my ideas. After that I found that the real problem is not the tehnique. Once you aquired it, you will be facing a huge, terrifying wall, having "What to do ?' written on it. This is the really hard part. The NWN editor has been mentioned here. Once I learnt how to create entire tilesets, how to make custom everything, and masterd the scripting tehniques, I was lost. It is very hard to avoid clich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerfish Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 "The same goes for programmers looking to break in, you should have something to show. " To expound on this, you can show your stuff by creating or adding something new, different or helpful to a community. Several of the people hired by BioWare were fans and forum members who had skills and created things that could be used by the community as a whole. Whether it be programming or modelling, think of something new or something that is missing from an existing game and create that missing piece. Also at least learn a bit about various aspects of a game rather than just the area have skills in. (As in if you are a skillful writer or designer, learn enough about scripting and or modelling to at least have a clue.) Also do research into all the past projects of the company you are trying to get hired by. I get the impression that jobs in the industry can be pretty competitive thus every little bit extra to add to your knowledge is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankK Posted February 17, 2004 Share Posted February 17, 2004 (As in if you are a skillful writer or designer, learn enough about scripting and or modelling to at least have a clue.) This is important if you are looking to be a designer. You really need to be well-rounded in all aspects of design. Being able to write a great story is nice, but it doesn't show that you know how many kobolds belong in a room or what items should be in a shop for a 1st level character (etc). You should learn WHY some levels are popular with people and others aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gromnir Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 "Being able to write a great story is nice, but it doesn't show that you know how many kobolds belong in a room or what items should be in a shop for a 1st level character (etc). You should learn WHY some levels are popular with people and others aren't." seems like sometimes the designers not know this stuff neither. knowing scripting and modeling won't teach you what gamers likes and why, will it? maybe you has designed pnp games for years... but pnp ain't same as crpg "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Managarm Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 To throw in with what Gromnir was saying, I agree completely, though admittedly I am not collage educated so I can Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarjahurmaaja. Posted February 18, 2004 Share Posted February 18, 2004 That looks like an interesting post. It'd be nice if it had paragraphs so I could read it, too. 9/30 -- NEVER FORGET! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnPnP Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Very interesting stuff. I wonder whats neccessary to get into QA. I'm a high school student in Lubbock, and unless their hiding very carefully there are no dev or publishing company's here. I'm going to major in computer science, and I know C++ and some JAVA, so how do I find somewhere that will give me a good shot at a QA job straight outta HS or college? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mercer Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I'd like to ask if any of you guys have some advice for those of us who are already in the professional world, have a family, and are trying to break into the industry. I think I would be one of the best there is at QA (and have done quite a bit informally), but I have yet to hear of a QA job that I can afford to take, and even if I could feed my family on it, it seems like getting a job in QA is all about who you know. I already have a degree in Int Business (and I'm not going back to get another one, and besides I can't think of a degree that demands more ficticous technical writing...uh, I mean technical AND ficticous writing). I took a job in Japan to polish my Japanese and hopefully be able to break into the industry through localization. But what I'm really good at, and what I really enjoy, is QA, design and production management, so why do I want to waste my time translating right? I feel kind of like a nuisance asking you guys for advice on my specific position, but if any of you gurus can spare a couple minutes for my question I would be most grateful and maybe it can help some others in simular situations. Is localization still my best bet, or will it not get me any closer to the designer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferret Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I've worked QA at a few companies and in my experience if you like games, know the basics about computers (or consoles), and can make a good impression in an interview then you have a good shot at getting a QA gig. No real education is required and any technical skills beyond basic familiarity with computers is a big plus. The biggest trick is to find a place that is hiring. I'm sure that different companies have different expectations for QA, though, so don't take this as gospel. -Ferret Designer on the Delaware Project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarjahurmaaja. Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 You cheat, Ferret. 9/30 -- NEVER FORGET! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karzak Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 The best way to get hired is to get a private eye to fallow the CEO around, if you can't get dirt on him that way slip him the mickey and take photos of him in bed with a monkey. If that don't work marry his sister! Let's keep the T&A in FanTAsy ***Posting delayed, user on moderator review*** Why Bio Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Contreras Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I would stay far, far away from QA if you have a decent career. If you are interested in development, I'd keep the day job and work on mods, maps and writing for the rest of your waking hours. Entry level QA can be very frustrating. Your job is to find bugs - yet you are not allowed to fix what is broken. Your bug reports will invariably be mocked, disregarded or insulted by development - but you are not allowed to even communicate with the developers, let alone critcize their work subjectively. Your own bug reports should folllow a strict pattern and be very clear and precise...but developers and producers will often write up bug reports that are often wrong or incomprehensible. There are reasons for all of the negatives, of course, but the job involves a lot of humility, patience and swallowing of pride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferret Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I would stay far, far away from QA if you have a decent career. If you are interested in development, I'd keep the day job and work on mods, maps and writing for the rest of your waking hours. Entry level QA can be very frustrating. Your job is to find bugs - yet you are not allowed to fix what is broken. Your bug reports will invariably be mocked, disregarded or insulted by development - but you are not allowed to even communicate with the developers, let alone critcize their work subjectively. Your own bug reports should folllow a strict pattern and be very clear and precise...but developers and producers will often write up bug reports that are often wrong or incomprehensible. There are reasons for all of the negatives, of course, but the job involves a lot of humility, patience and swallowing of pride. Yeah, QA can definitely be a rocky road (sorry to hear about your rough experience). But I'm amazed at how many developers got their start there. And even if you landed a developer position directly and skipped entry-level, I think you're missing some valuable experience and perspective on the process of making games. If you have other marketable skills or a decent career, going to game QA is a huge sacrifice. The pay cut can be very painful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgoth Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 I would stay far, far away from QA if you have a decent career. If you are interested in development, I'd keep the day job and work on mods, maps and writing for the rest of your waking hours. Entry level QA can be very frustrating. Your job is to find bugs - yet you are not allowed to fix what is broken. Your bug reports will invariably be mocked, disregarded or insulted by development - but you are not allowed to even communicate with the developers, let alone critcize their work subjectively. Your own bug reports should folllow a strict pattern and be very clear and precise...but developers and producers will often write up bug reports that are often wrong or incomprehensible. There are reasons for all of the negatives, of course, but the job involves a lot of humility, patience and swallowing of pride. That's true. I remember an interview were Gabe Newell said the same, that there is literally a wall between the developer staff and the QA staff and people with a serious intend to break into the gaming industry should make mods, mods, and mods. But it's somehow really sadly, I mean no wonder that with such an ineffective communication and relationship between devs and QA the games are becoming more buggy and buggy... Rain makes everything better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jhusges Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I would stay far, far away from QA if you have a decent career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magena Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 I'm interested in knowing what is the best course, or courses, to officially become a game designer. Is there a specific degree? Do I have to learn skills from different sources, and if yes, where would be the best sources? Do I just need a cunning mind and sharp wit? What are the best colleges, specially in Europe? One thing that you really need is to be able to learn new technology quickly, and to have a good imagination. :D Technology changes rather quickly, and often what is "in" now won't be in a few years. - so it is best to learn a few different programs/languages/whatnot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Contreras Posted February 20, 2004 Share Posted February 20, 2004 Yeah, QA can definitely be a rocky road (sorry to hear about your rough experience). But I'm amazed at how many developers got their start there. And even if you landed a developer position directly and skipped entry-level, I think you're missing some valuable experience and perspective on the process of making games. If you have other marketable skills or a decent career, going to game QA is a huge sacrifice. The pay cut can be very painful. I suppose the picture I painted is pretty bleak, eh? Those sorts of bad experiences are the exception rather than the norm, of course. One last bit of advice - go for a QA department that is tied as closely to development as possible. Working QA for a publisher (Atari/Sierra) won't be as valuable to a would-be developer as working in the same building as the actual team making the game you are testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now