Looking for Guidance on Pure Wizard Spells / Talents

[Rbera]

Decided on a pure wizard and writing down a pre build on microsoft notepad.

As a side note before you reply please keep the discussion based on a pure wizard only, and no connection to in game equipment, so i dont have to navigate obsolete information.

Your on the character creation screen, you have access to all the spells / talent points of a max pure wizard, what are the spells / talents that are mandatory to creating the strongest wizard with the resources that are available.

Thanks

 

 

 

 

[thelee]

What’s your tolerance for micromanagement?

because these days I basically don’t pick up any spells with a wizard, with basically the only exception being Deleterious Alacrity of Motion and (maybe) one or two others (this time I also picked up Miasma).

that’s because if you have a high willingness to juggle grimoires you basically don’t need to pick up any spells. I just pick one or so spells that I think are important enough to guarantee having no matter what (Deleterious is a very very good buff). That leaves you with plenty of ability points to load up on passives, almost all of them.

[Rbera]

I dont mind micromanagement as long as it isnt ridiculous.

I just want to keep it simple for one play through on PotD.

From your comment i have added Deleterious Alacrity of Motion to my pre build on note pad, so thats a start haha.

 

[Elric Galad]

I almost always pick Thrust of Tattered Veil as mandatory Tier 1 spell pick.

There will always be a day when an instant automatic interrupt is going to be useful.

[Chaospread]

1 - Chill Fog
2 - Arms Bearer
3 - Two-handed style and Weapon and Shield style
4 - Combusting Wounds (or Arcain Veil)
5 - Combat Focus and Deleterious Alacrity of Motion
6 - Arcane Dampener
7 - Spell Shaping and Pull of Eora
8 - Essential Phantom
9 - Rapid Casting and Farcasting
10 - Citzal's Spirit Lance
11 - Improved Critical and Martial Caster
12 - Arcane Reflection
13 - Penetrating Empower and Wall of Draining
14 - Citzal's Martial Power
15 - Accurate Empower
16 - Kalakoth's Freezing Rake and Minoletta's Piercing Sigil
17 - Secrets of Rime
18 - Caedebald's Blackbow
19 - Prestige and Meteor Shower
20 - Arcane Cleanse

[yorname]

The biggest reason to pick a spell instead of relying on grimoires, is that you don't lose the hotkey. If you haven't learn a spell, and asign a hotkey to it in the grimoire, then switch and switch back, you can't use that hotkey. So just for your sanity I think spells you'll frequently use deserve a pick. Like a series of self-buffs you'll use at the start of literally every encounter. Also Aloth can get a passive that reduces grimoire switch cooldown by 1s. In comparison switching grimoire with the main character feels even more painful.

 

Effects that other classes don't get, or are expensive for them:

Chill Fog and Slicken: much cheaper than similar abilities from other classes.

Combusting Wounds is exploitable with the right party.

Miasma of Dull-Mindedness/Arkemyr's Wonderous Torment: -40 Will and -20 Reflex that goes through affliction immunity. Cipher can almost do it on one enemy at the cost of their own action economy

Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage: Repeatable Terrify. Other classes can't get (Furyshaper's totem only has 87 accuracy, useless at higher levels)

Essential Phantom: worth it if you want to use some weapon shenanigans

Wall of Draining.

 

Pull of Eora is quite unique, but PoE + AoE spells is too unfriendly to melee characters. Chill Fog can already force enemies to get closer.

Arcane Dampener and/or Arcane Cleanse are very powerful but not so frequently used to pick, so using a grimoire is fine.

Edited October 2 by yorname

[thelee]

1 hour ago, yorname said:

Miasma of Dull-Mindedness/Arkemyr's Wonderous Torment: -40 Will and -20 Reflex that goes through affliction immunity. Cipher can almost do it on one enemy at the cost of their own action economy

just to further add, the huge hit to those spell defenses are nice, but i think it also might be slept on how these also hit enemy accuracy by 10 and enemy deflection by 10, in a way that stacks with direct accuracy and deflection penalties. these are really strong debuff spells.

[Chaospread]

19 hours ago, yorname said:

The biggest reason to pick a spell instead of relying on grimoires, is that you don't lose the hotkey

And, If you play SOLO, being able to cast a set of spells without grimoire switch can be game changing in some encounters.

20 hours ago, yorname said:

Chill Fog

Watershaper version is better.

20 hours ago, yorname said:

Arkemyr's Wonderous Torment
Ryngrim's Repulsive Visage

Trickster can do both and if he wants, potentially more times than wizard (a part Blood Mage, obviously).
Priest of Wael can cast Arkemyr's Wonderous Torment.

20 hours ago, yorname said:

Pull of Eora

Arcan Archer can cast it and usually with more accuracy than a wizard.

For some of them there are also scrolls and items, but ok, scroll version usually are worst... but with high arcana...

[Boeroer]

59 minutes ago, Chaospread said:

Watershaper version is better.

Depends. Has lower PL scaling - but has no friendly fire.

I slept on Miasma of Dull-Mindedness long enough. Imo one of the best spells in the whole game. Also because there are so many good other spells that target the Will defense.
I usually also don't pick many spells but rely on grimoires - but Miasma is one of those I almost always pick.  

Edited October 3 by Boeroer

[thelee]

i agree. i don't think i seriously used miasma until relatively recently, and only because the run before those i had used arkemyr's wondrous torment to incredible effect against dorudugan (i even wrote a build up relying on it here somewhere in the forum history).

those spells don't exactly scream "i'm incredible!" but frankly they are. debuffing resolve by 10 in particular is a really subtly effect, not just making enemies easier to hit but making all your DoTs and debuffs much more powerful. the inversion math means that against enemies with above-average resolve, it's comparable to +10 intellect for your party and if we saw that on a buff we'd all agree that's a stupidly powerful buff for everyone. (against dorudugan in particular, they go from 35 resolve to 25 resolve... that's +260% worth of debuff duration increase thanks to inversions, essentially +52 intellect to everyone trying to land an effect... including refreshes of miasma/arkemyr) 

Edited October 3 by thelee

[yorname]

1 hour ago, Chaospread said:

Watershaper version is better.

If only we can get it with anyone other than Tekehu... With 10 PER and no head slot , that's more than 20 accuracy difference compared to the MC

I haven't used him offensively since forever ago, maybe worth it if I run a party with full fortitude debuffs

25 minutes ago, thelee said:

i agree. i don't think i seriously used miasma until relatively recently, and only because the run before those i had used arkemyr's wondrous torment to incredible effect against dorudugan (i even wrote a build up relying on it here somewhere in the forum history).

those spells don't exactly scream "i'm incredible!" but frankly they are. debuffing resolve by 10 in particular is a really subtly effect, not just making enemies easier to hit but making all your DoTs and debuffs much more powerful. the inversion math means that against enemies with above-average resolve, it's comparable to +10 intellect for your party and if we saw that on a buff we'd all agree that's a stupidly powerful buff for everyone. (against dorudugan in particular, they go from 35 resolve to 25 resolve... that's +260% worth of debuff duration increase thanks to inversions, essentially +52 intellect to everyone trying to land an effect... including refreshes of miasma/arkemyr) 

I was going to ask if we're sure duration also uses inversion, but I decided a quick test and found AWT has an advantage over miasma: it seems to apply its full duration on graze (at least main target), while miasma's graze has the normal -50% duration penalty.

And I think duration might not be using inversion: my character with PL7, 17 INT hits Doru with AWT for the first time, if it's inversion, it should be

30*1.1*1/(1-(0.35+1-1/(1-0.75))) = 9.04s

however the effect was actually 11.2s, seems to be just

30*1.1*1.35*(1-0.75) = 11.1375s 

with some rounding problems.

[thelee]

58 minutes ago, yorname said:

And I think duration might not be using inversion: my character with PL7, 17 INT hits Doru with AWT for the first time, if it's inversion, it should be

30*1.1*1/(1-(0.35+1-1/(1-0.75))) = 9.04s

however the effect was actually 11.2s, seems to be just

30*1.1*1.35*(1-0.75) = 11.1375s 

with some rounding problems.

very interesting finding! i think this bears further testing (edit: also in part because typically when I do math I get answers that match the game down to the tenths, so I want to be certain nothing's being missed), because my memory tells me that I did some math/testing and was pretty sure that below-average resolve added additively to durations, it would be weird if it functioned additively in one direction and then in a different system (non-inversion) in another. i'm happy to be corrected, but it would be a pretty big deal if below-average resolve adds duration multiplicatively instead.

if it is multiplicative, then in general debuffing resolve is even stronger. inversions are weird and non-linear so if you're deep in the hole it's more punishing than multiplicative, but as you get more out of the hole it becomes weaker than multiplicative, and then you're at the point that the sign flips and it's purely additive. for most cases (e.g. not dorudugan) debuffing resolve would then be pretty good support. for an enemy at 10 resolve, landing a resolve affliction to get +15% additively to debuff durations is one thing, but 1.15x on your debuff duration is a whole other (actually quite good) thing.

Edited October 3 by thelee

[yorname]

10 minutes ago, thelee said:

very interesting finding! i think this bears further testing, because my memory tells me that I did some math/testing and was pretty sure that below-average resolve added additively to durations, it would be weird if it functioned additively in one direction and then in a different system (non-inversion) in another. i'm happy to be corrected, but it would be a pretty big deal if below-average resolve adds duration multiplicatively instead.

if it is multiplicative, then in general debuffing resolve is even stronger. inversions are weird and non-linear so if you're deep in the hole it's more punishing than multiplicative, but as you get more out of the hole it becomes weaker than multiplicative, and then you're at the point that the sign flips and it's purely additive. for most cases (e.g. not dorudugan) debuffing resolve would then be pretty good support. for an enemy at 10 resolve, landing a resolve affliction to get +15% additively to debuff durations is one thing, but 1.15x on your debuff duration is a whole other (actually quite good) thing.

It gets weirder, because after I hit it for the first time, subsequent hits did use inversion. I got 22.4s on hits, which is closer to

30*1.1*1/(1-(0.35+1-1/(1-0.45))) = ~22.5s

rather than

30*1.1*1.35*(1-0.45) = ~24.5s

This does need a full test.

[yorname]

So here's all the results:

• First graze with AWT: 11.2s
• subsequent hits/grazes with AWT: almost always 22.4s, fits inversion
• miasma graze: 3.4s, only makes sense if we get 6.85s with inversion, then *0.5 from graze
• miasma graze after AWT: 8.5s, only makes sense if we get 17.0s with inversion, then *0.5 from graze

So far the conclusion I can get is, duration does use inversion, but graze is multiplicative. And AWT is super weird:

• The first hit or graze will apply -5/-10 RES first, then calculate the durations seperately, and can graze. So the 11.2s was actually 22.4s*0.5 (graze), not from non-inversion. Even if I hit a creature with 35 RES, it's calculated with 25 RES. I'm sure miasma does not behave this way.
• If the target has -5/-10 versions on it, subsequent grazes of that version count as hits and give full duration
• I can get as many as 3 or more debuffs called AWT on the target, seems due to my charater being killed and instantly revived, and they count as different spells? This might mean AWT from multiple casters can get even weirder. They don'y stack ofc, just durations can get funky.

Edited October 3 by yorname

[thelee]

I’m almost stridently confident that graze is not multiplicative.

i wonder if AWT is implemented in a weird way (sounds like it) where the debuff duration is calculated separately, like not a part of the initial effect, because if it grazes as part of a separate step instead of as the same calculation step a graze becomes indistinguishable from multiplicative penalty.

 

edit: actually I only know for certain that graze is not multiplicative when it comes to damage, it is very possible graze is multiplicative for durations, because crits ARE multiplicative for durations! This is actually a nice discovery

Edited October 4 by thelee

[yorname]

We can learn new things of this game after so many years!

Only because they decided to use inversion in the first place and nobody can be sure about basic mechanics lol

[Chaospread]

I think even nobody in Obsidian team knows at 100% how things actually work in detail

[Elric Galad]

I'm pretty confident that Boeroer + Maxquest + Thelee + Constantin Lévine (the master of the obscure cheese) + me put together beat Obsidian team.

I don't even think the 5 of us would be required. Probably "pick 2" would be enough.

I don't blame Obsidian though. It's not the same thing to do something as a job.

Edited October 4 by Elric Galad

[Silvaren]

I'm huge fan of Wall of Many Colors and I often placed on it Pull of Eora to, well, pull back anyone who could escape this colorful line of awesomeness. Casting from stealth before combat allows to almost immediately cast second spell. Many AoE spells (like Symbol of Eothas, Ninagauth's Freezing Pillars, Storm of Holy Fire or even Delayed Fireball) and ranged attack can finish paralyzed/dominated mobs while tank can engage those, who somehow managed to escape CC effects. You can always give your tank an item to prevent forced movement effects to protect against Pull of Eora.

I also like to combine Pull of Eora with Call of Rymrgand both placed ofcourse on the line of Wall of Many Colors.

[Boeroer]

53 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I don't blame Obsidian though. It's not the same thing to do something as a job.

I also don't. If there were individual devs who new all of the mechanics and how everything worked under the hood: they would have forgotten most of it by now because they simply moved on to something new.
I cannot remember the details of my own programming once I moved on to a new project.  Just recently I was looking back at some specialized search for duplicate data entries which I wrote a few years ago: "Huh? What the heck is happening... and... why?" <insert jacky_chan_wtf.gif/>

42 minutes ago, Silvaren said:

I'm huge fan of Wall of Many Colors and I often placed on it Pull of Eora to, well, pull back anyone who could escape this colorful line of awesomeness. Casting from stealth before combat allows to almost immediately cast second spell. Many AoE spells (like Symbol of Eothas, Ninagauth's Freezing Pillars, Storm of Holy Fire or even Delayed Fireball) and ranged attack can finish paralyzed/dominated mobs while tank can engage those, who somehow managed to escape CC effects. You can always give your tank an item to prevent forced movement effects to protect against Pull of Eora.

I also like to combine Pull of Eora with Call of Rymrgand both placed ofcourse on the line of Wall of Many Colors.

I like that you can cast Wall spells while under invisibility of Arkemyr's Brilliant Departure - and the invisibility won't break even if they deal damage. I don't like that Wall spells are hazards which don't profit from a lot of character feats and gear but are more acting like stationary summons (which they are not ofc... but kind of ;)). 

 

[Chaospread]

3 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

I'm pretty confident that Boeroer + Maxquest + Thelee + Constantin Lévine (the master of the obscure cheese) + me put together beat Obsidian team.

I don't even think the 5 of us would be required. Probably "pick 2" would be enough.

I don't blame Obsidian though. It's not the same thing to do something as a job.

I totally agree with you. It wasn't meant to be an insult to the team.
I'm a programmer too and I haven't (past 20 years) met a team who know everything about a complex software (and maybe simple too ), it was only a joke
And maybe I found out a new cheese that I'm gonna show you next days

[Chaospread]

5 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I also don't. If there were individual devs who new all of the mechanics and how everything worked under the hood: they would have forgotten most of it by now because they simply moved on to something new.
I cannot remember the details of my own programming once I moved on to a new project.  Just recently I was looking back at some specialized search for duplicate data entries which I wrote a few years ago: "Huh? What the heck is happening... and... why?" <insert jacky_chan_wtf.gif/>

Lucky you! It happens to me also with code I'm developing now
But I suppose... it is part of the "italian" way of make jobs, you know...
On my defense when someone ask about things I did many years before usually I answer, but I draft deep details of my work and keep them all in zip backup folder... and ALWAYS people ask the same things

[Okkes]

Another spell that nobody talks about is the Minoletta's Precisely Piercing Burst, crazy high penetration and damage. And its vs reflex which you can reduce to nothing, lots of crits.

[yorname]

Problem is the same tier you get Freezing Pillar, which scales way better than one-hit spells. You would be stacking penetration on offensive caster anyway so the high penetration of MPPB is kind of redundant. Even if say enemies only take half damage from Freezing Pillar because of underpen, it will still deal more damage, and it comes with an affliction so potentially +10 ACC.

The most useful moment of MPPB is probably when multiple enemies dive into your formation and other damage spells all have friendly fire.

[Constentin Lévine]

Most of the transmutation spells are very impactful : Sliken, arduous delay of motion, Pull of Eora, Ninagauth's Bitter mooring (especially if you have a FF monk in the party), Arcane Dampener, Call to Slumber etc. Dimensional shift is pretty well too, but the coast of 1 ressource make the spell rarely used in my concern.

However with a wizard who have access to transmutation, illusion and conjuration, you can have a lot of possibility.