Gaza - War does not determine who is right - only who is left

[Elerond]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Absolutely, both sides  are  very butthurt  about getting issued  with expected ICC warrants

Its not  like anyone's going to get arrested because they  will avoid going to ICC  countries  but its  symbolic  and none of the 5 people can travel  to many countries that include the EU 

 

State of Palestine is member of ICC. Them failing to arrest Hamas leaders in question could cause issues when they try to get international recognition.

[Zoraptor]

Despite their obvious problems in a multitude of areas (no territorial control, bad rule of law, no elections etc) Palestine would have been internationally recognised this year if not for yet another US veto at the UNSC (/15670: 12-1). Also 143-9 at the UNGA a month later though they of course need the UNSC recommendation for it to be binding, so it was just kicking the ball to the Security Council for another inevitable US veto.

The indictments/ arrest warrants if issued are unlikely to change anything in that respect as Haniyeh is in non signatory Qatar and the other two are in Gaza where the PA holds no sway. Indeed, a lack of capacity to act is specifically one of the reasons for the ICC being able to act in this case. --> the currently much abused term "complementarity"; ie is the state in question able (Palestine, no disputation Israel is able to) or can the state be relied upon/ is willing to prosecute (both Israel and Palestine).

 

[Gorth]

Rather predictably... the US is going to do their worst to ensure the ICC can't function as an independent court.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp66e6ppzd0o

The Illegitimate Court Counteraction Act would target ICC officials involved with the case by blocking their entry to the US, revoking any current US visas they hold, and prohibiting them from any property transactions within the country - unless the court ceases its cases against "protected persons of the United States and its allies".

Tl;dr; the US will go after the individual members of the ICC and punish them for their "transgressions" against "special friends of the US"

[BruceVC]

4 hours ago, Gorth said:

Rather predictably... the US is going to do their worst to ensure the ICC can't function as an independent court.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp66e6ppzd0o

The Illegitimate Court Counteraction Act would target ICC officials involved with the case by blocking their entry to the US, revoking any current US visas they hold, and prohibiting them from any property transactions within the country - unless the court ceases its cases against "protected persons of the United States and its allies".

Tl;dr; the US will go after the individual members of the ICC and punish them for their "transgressions" against "special friends of the US"

Gorthfuscious dont read too much into this, this is the second  time the US has done this with specific sanctions against ICC prosecutors and it didnt work last time 

Biden has to agree to it but its not going to change or influence the ICC decision to issue the warrants. The US doesn't fund the ICC and its not a member 

 The main reality will continue, these 5 people  cant  travel to any country that is an ICC member. Does this matter? I think it does matter but its  more symbolic  but the ICC must continue to do the  work it does and countries like the US should stay out of its prosecutorial decisions 

[Malcador]

10 hours ago, Gorth said:

Rather predictably... the US is going to do their worst to ensure the ICC can't function as an independent court.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp66e6ppzd0o

The Illegitimate Court Counteraction Act would target ICC officials involved with the case by blocking their entry to the US, revoking any current US visas they hold, and prohibiting them from any property transactions within the country - unless the court ceases its cases against "protected persons of the United States and its allies".

Tl;dr; the US will go after the individual members of the ICC and punish them for their "transgressions" against "special friends of the US"

The Rules Based Order at work

[HoonDing]

Biden's goose is cooked, and he knows it.

[Zoraptor]

ICJ rules against Israel and orders a stop to its Rafah operation. As always, a certain amount of grim humour to be had watching Hasbara scramble for a coherent response in real time. I particularly liked that apparently ICJ judges don't know or understand international law- unlike the random redditor/ twitter/ facebook user saying it, with their lifetime's worth of relevant experience.

(All block 13-2 votes, with the Israeli and Ugandan judges dissenting. Perhaps most interesting there is the Ugandan judge's reasoning, since this time there is a formal dissenting opinion of her "firm belief that the provisional measures previously indicated and reaffirmed by the Court adequately address the current situation in the Gaza Strip, including Rafah". For anyone who has forgotten- which would be pretty shocking as it's surely a critical event in most peoples' lives- she actually voted against those measures almost entirely...)

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, Zoraptor said:

ICJ rules against Israel and orders a stop to its Rafah operation. As always, a certain amount of grim humour to be had watching Hasbara scramble for a coherent response in real time. I particularly liked that apparently ICJ judges don't know or understand international law- unlike the random redditor/ twitter/ facebook user saying it, with their lifetime's worth of relevant experience.

(All block 13-2 votes, with the Israeli and Ugandan judges dissenting. Perhaps most interesting there is the Ugandan judge's reasoning, since this time there is a formal dissenting opinion of her "firm belief that the provisional measures previously indicated and reaffirmed by the Court adequately address the current situation in the Gaza Strip, including Rafah". For anyone who has forgotten- which would be pretty shocking as it's surely a critical event in most peoples' lives- she actually voted against those measures almost entirely...)

My issue is more how she gets criticized, in South Africa the normal  "anti-colonialism\anti-Capitalism "  crowd were  outraged  because "  she is black, HOW can a black person not agree with opinion X "

So they assume all black people must have a certain opinion on specific   political or geopolitical events.  She is not allowed to have a different opinion because its  assumed  her race  defines  her judgements 

Its incredibly condescending and patronizing 

 

[Zoraptor]

Her stand is rather weird on the face of it. She actually dissented against more of the original provisions than the Israeli judge did. While she is of course entitled to her views she has been in a minority- sometimes the lone dissenter- on nearly everything about the case.

(At the time of the initial preliminary release it seemed like it might be some sort of fundamental stand against provisional measures or on limiting the right of self defence. Doesn't seem to be either though from her opinion yesterday since she now seems to be supporting the original measures)

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

Her stand is rather weird on the face of it. She actually dissented against more of the original provisions than the Israeli judge did. While she is of course entitled to her views she has been in a minority- sometimes the lone dissenter- on nearly everything about the case.

(At the time of the initial preliminary release it seemed like it might be some sort of fundamental stand against provisional measures or on limiting the right of self defence. Doesn't seem to be either though from her opinion yesterday since she now seems to be supporting the original measures)

Yes and this is normal criticism of her stance and thats fine 

But Im  not talking about that,  Im  talking about how she was criticized around " how can a black person not agree with opinion x" as if all black people must have views  based on an assumption of identity politics being the reason   any of us should have an opinion

I utterly reject that,  for example I dont have an opinion on things because other white people have  that  same opinion. Thats often true but that  has nothing to do with why I  have that view   

 

[Malcador]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-attack-rafah-tent-camp-draws-global-condemnation-2024-05-27/

Is amusing to see people that see nothing wrong with this, totally Hamas' fault.

[melkathi]

Bruce has a point in saying it is disingenuous saying we are all equal but based on colour/gender/sexuality you are expected to have opinion XYZ.

As Die Toten Hosen said in a song (before they jumped onto the warmonger train of German hysteria) "Auch lesbische, schwarze Behinderte können ätzend sein".

 

That said, the specific judge is apparently part of a church with strong ties and funding from Israel, so not necessarily unbiased.

[Malcador]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/28/spying-hacking-intimidation-israel-war-icc-exposed

Lot of money burned there.

[Zoraptor]

Nothing really surprising though.

Have to admit, I'd laugh if the ICC brought charges against US senators for making threats against them.

[Malcador]

I think people would be ok with sending Lindsey to The Hague.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

The ICC clearly only has legitimate jurisdiction over Africa and Russia.

[BruceVC]

11 hours ago, Malcador said:

I think people would be ok with sending Lindsey to The Hague.

Under what charges?

 

10 hours ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

The ICC clearly only has legitimate jurisdiction over Africa and Russia.

I realize  you dont understand most  of this type  of  selective  "outrage " but the ICC doesnt have jurisdiction  have any country  that isn't a signatory of the Rome Statute

So its not about Africa  or Russia because it doesn't have jurisdiction over crimes within Russia 

 

[Zoraptor]

Article 70 (d) (e)

oh, ok, if you insist.

Quote

 

(d)     Impeding, intimidating or corruptly influencing an official of the Court for the purpose of forcing or persuading the official not to perform, or to perform improperly, his or her duties;

(e)     Retaliating against an official of the Court on account of duties performed by that or another official;

 

Of course Mr Graham would hypothetically be fine so long as he stayed in the US and away from anywhere with ICC jurisdiction.

(You can think of the rationale for him actually being charged despite the US not being a Party this way: if he fired a Tomahawk at Karim Khan and hit him in Britain he could be charged at the ICC, since Britain is a signatory: same way Netanyahu can be charged despite Israel not being a State Party. If he merely threatened to do the same thing, well, Karim Khan is still in Britain and thus the ICC is still able to charge him for the threat since it's 'received' in Britain)

Edited May 29 by Zoraptor

[BruceVC]

More hilarious parody from Babylon Bee, I still dont understand why people on this forum dont consider them one of the funniest satire websites on the Internet 

[Elerond]

They don't have similar punch like for example The Onion

https://www.theonion.com/advisors-assure-biden-this-will-blow-over-once-all-gaza-1851452315

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, Elerond said:

They don't have similar punch like for example The Onion

https://www.theonion.com/advisors-assure-biden-this-will-blow-over-once-all-gaza-1851452315

Onion is also brilliant 

[BruceVC]

https://edition.cnn.com/world/live-news/lebanon-pagers-attack-hezbollah/index.html

Very sophisticated Mossad attack on Hezbollah, James Bond type strategy that rigged pagers Hezbollah operatives are using

 

[Elerond]

It seem that Mossad may have committed terrorist crime in Europe, but they probably will not get charged as the victim aka company which provided pagers for the Hezbollah should acknowledge that it has also broken anti terrorist laws by exporting pagers to Hezbollah.

But targeting production lines of consumer goods will create bad precedent anyway.

[BruceVC]

2 minutes ago, Elerond said:

It seem that Mossad may have committed terrorist crime in Europe, but they probably will not get charged as the victim aka company which provided pagers for the Hezbollah should acknowledge that it has also broken anti terrorist laws by exporting pagers to Hezbollah.

But targeting production lines of consumer goods will create bad precedent anyway.

I was wondering about that because my initial view was " but these pagers could be used by civilians " and now you possibly hurting or killing civilians 

But it seems they were specific to Hezbollah members so the Israeli's will use that as a justification

I never thought about anti-terrorism laws and what any company can or cant do around these laws 

But I agree, overall its a bad precedent to do this type of thing 

 

[Malcador]

Now they've blown up personal radios.  Maybe things will cool down as Hezbollah's being embarrassed like this