Elerond Posted May 21 Share Posted May 21 2 hours ago, BruceVC said: Absolutely, both sides are very butthurt about getting issued with expected ICC warrants Its not like anyone's going to get arrested because they will avoid going to ICC countries but its symbolic and none of the 5 people can travel to many countries that include the EU State of Palestine is member of ICC. Them failing to arrest Hamas leaders in question could cause issues when they try to get international recognition. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted May 22 Author Share Posted May 22 Despite their obvious problems in a multitude of areas (no territorial control, bad rule of law, no elections etc) Palestine would have been internationally recognised this year if not for yet another US veto at the UNSC (/15670: 12-1). Also 143-9 at the UNGA a month later though they of course need the UNSC recommendation for it to be binding, so it was just kicking the ball to the Security Council for another inevitable US veto. The indictments/ arrest warrants if issued are unlikely to change anything in that respect as Haniyeh is in non signatory Qatar and the other two are in Gaza where the PA holds no sway. Indeed, a lack of capacity to act is specifically one of the reasons for the ICC being able to act in this case. --> the currently much abused term "complementarity"; ie is the state in question able (Palestine, no disputation Israel is able to) or can the state be relied upon/ is willing to prosecute (both Israel and Palestine). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 Rather predictably... the US is going to do their worst to ensure the ICC can't function as an independent court. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp66e6ppzd0o The Illegitimate Court Counteraction Act would target ICC officials involved with the case by blocking their entry to the US, revoking any current US visas they hold, and prohibiting them from any property transactions within the country - unless the court ceases its cases against "protected persons of the United States and its allies". Tl;dr; the US will go after the individual members of the ICC and punish them for their "transgressions" against "special friends of the US" 1 1 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 4 hours ago, Gorth said: Rather predictably... the US is going to do their worst to ensure the ICC can't function as an independent court. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp66e6ppzd0o The Illegitimate Court Counteraction Act would target ICC officials involved with the case by blocking their entry to the US, revoking any current US visas they hold, and prohibiting them from any property transactions within the country - unless the court ceases its cases against "protected persons of the United States and its allies". Tl;dr; the US will go after the individual members of the ICC and punish them for their "transgressions" against "special friends of the US" Gorthfuscious dont read too much into this, this is the second time the US has done this with specific sanctions against ICC prosecutors and it didnt work last time Biden has to agree to it but its not going to change or influence the ICC decision to issue the warrants. The US doesn't fund the ICC and its not a member The main reality will continue, these 5 people cant travel to any country that is an ICC member. Does this matter? I think it does matter but its more symbolic but the ICC must continue to do the work it does and countries like the US should stay out of its prosecutorial decisions "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 10 hours ago, Gorth said: Rather predictably... the US is going to do their worst to ensure the ICC can't function as an independent court. https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cp66e6ppzd0o The Illegitimate Court Counteraction Act would target ICC officials involved with the case by blocking their entry to the US, revoking any current US visas they hold, and prohibiting them from any property transactions within the country - unless the court ceases its cases against "protected persons of the United States and its allies". Tl;dr; the US will go after the individual members of the ICC and punish them for their "transgressions" against "special friends of the US" The Rules Based Order at work 2 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoonDing Posted May 22 Share Posted May 22 Biden's goose is cooked, and he knows it. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted May 25 Author Share Posted May 25 ICJ rules against Israel and orders a stop to its Rafah operation. As always, a certain amount of grim humour to be had watching Hasbara scramble for a coherent response in real time. I particularly liked that apparently ICJ judges don't know or understand international law- unlike the random redditor/ twitter/ facebook user saying it, with their lifetime's worth of relevant experience. (All block 13-2 votes, with the Israeli and Ugandan judges dissenting. Perhaps most interesting there is the Ugandan judge's reasoning, since this time there is a formal dissenting opinion of her "firm belief that the provisional measures previously indicated and reaffirmed by the Court adequately address the current situation in the Gaza Strip, including Rafah". For anyone who has forgotten- which would be pretty shocking as it's surely a critical event in most peoples' lives- she actually voted against those measures almost entirely...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 1 hour ago, Zoraptor said: ICJ rules against Israel and orders a stop to its Rafah operation. As always, a certain amount of grim humour to be had watching Hasbara scramble for a coherent response in real time. I particularly liked that apparently ICJ judges don't know or understand international law- unlike the random redditor/ twitter/ facebook user saying it, with their lifetime's worth of relevant experience. (All block 13-2 votes, with the Israeli and Ugandan judges dissenting. Perhaps most interesting there is the Ugandan judge's reasoning, since this time there is a formal dissenting opinion of her "firm belief that the provisional measures previously indicated and reaffirmed by the Court adequately address the current situation in the Gaza Strip, including Rafah". For anyone who has forgotten- which would be pretty shocking as it's surely a critical event in most peoples' lives- she actually voted against those measures almost entirely...) My issue is more how she gets criticized, in South Africa the normal "anti-colonialism\anti-Capitalism " crowd were outraged because " she is black, HOW can a black person not agree with opinion X " So they assume all black people must have a certain opinion on specific political or geopolitical events. She is not allowed to have a different opinion because its assumed her race defines her judgements Its incredibly condescending and patronizing "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted May 25 Author Share Posted May 25 Her stand is rather weird on the face of it. She actually dissented against more of the original provisions than the Israeli judge did. While she is of course entitled to her views she has been in a minority- sometimes the lone dissenter- on nearly everything about the case. (At the time of the initial preliminary release it seemed like it might be some sort of fundamental stand against provisional measures or on limiting the right of self defence. Doesn't seem to be either though from her opinion yesterday since she now seems to be supporting the original measures) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted May 25 Share Posted May 25 2 hours ago, Zoraptor said: Her stand is rather weird on the face of it. She actually dissented against more of the original provisions than the Israeli judge did. While she is of course entitled to her views she has been in a minority- sometimes the lone dissenter- on nearly everything about the case. (At the time of the initial preliminary release it seemed like it might be some sort of fundamental stand against provisional measures or on limiting the right of self defence. Doesn't seem to be either though from her opinion yesterday since she now seems to be supporting the original measures) Yes and this is normal criticism of her stance and thats fine But Im not talking about that, Im talking about how she was criticized around " how can a black person not agree with opinion x" as if all black people must have views based on an assumption of identity politics being the reason any of us should have an opinion I utterly reject that, for example I dont have an opinion on things because other white people have that same opinion. Thats often true but that has nothing to do with why I have that view "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted May 27 Share Posted May 27 https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-attack-rafah-tent-camp-draws-global-condemnation-2024-05-27/ Is amusing to see people that see nothing wrong with this, totally Hamas' fault. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melkathi Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Bruce has a point in saying it is disingenuous saying we are all equal but based on colour/gender/sexuality you are expected to have opinion XYZ. As Die Toten Hosen said in a song (before they jumped onto the warmonger train of German hysteria) "Auch lesbische, schwarze Behinderte können ätzend sein". That said, the specific judge is apparently part of a church with strong ties and funding from Israel, so not necessarily unbiased. 2 1 Unobtrusively informing you about my new ebook (which you should feel free to read and shower with praise). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/may/28/spying-hacking-intimidation-israel-war-icc-exposed Lot of money burned there. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted May 28 Author Share Posted May 28 Nothing really surprising though. Have to admit, I'd laugh if the ICC brought charges against US senators for making threats against them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 I think people would be ok with sending Lindsey to The Hague. 1 1 Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK htiw klaw eriF Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 The ICC clearly only has legitimate jurisdiction over Africa and Russia. 1 "Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic "I'm gonna hunt you down so that I can slap you square in the mouth." - Bartimaeus "Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander "Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador "You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort "thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex "Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock "Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco "we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii "I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing "feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth "Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi "Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor "I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine "Am I phrasing in the most negative light for them? Yes, but it's not untrue." - ShadySands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted May 29 Share Posted May 29 11 hours ago, Malcador said: I think people would be ok with sending Lindsey to The Hague. Under what charges? 10 hours ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said: The ICC clearly only has legitimate jurisdiction over Africa and Russia. I realize you dont understand most of this type of selective "outrage " but the ICC doesnt have jurisdiction have any country that isn't a signatory of the Rome Statute So its not about Africa or Russia because it doesn't have jurisdiction over crimes within Russia "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted May 29 Author Share Posted May 29 (edited) Article 70 (d) (e) oh, ok, if you insist. Quote (d) Impeding, intimidating or corruptly influencing an official of the Court for the purpose of forcing or persuading the official not to perform, or to perform improperly, his or her duties; (e) Retaliating against an official of the Court on account of duties performed by that or another official; Of course Mr Graham would hypothetically be fine so long as he stayed in the US and away from anywhere with ICC jurisdiction. (You can think of the rationale for him actually being charged despite the US not being a Party this way: if he fired a Tomahawk at Karim Khan and hit him in Britain he could be charged at the ICC, since Britain is a signatory: same way Netanyahu can be charged despite Israel not being a State Party. If he merely threatened to do the same thing, well, Karim Khan is still in Britain and thus the ICC is still able to charge him for the threat since it's 'received' in Britain) Edited May 29 by Zoraptor 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 More hilarious parody from Babylon Bee, I still dont understand why people on this forum dont consider them one of the funniest satire websites on the Internet "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elerond Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 They don't have similar punch like for example The Onion https://www.theonion.com/advisors-assure-biden-this-will-blow-over-once-all-gaza-1851452315 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted May 30 Share Posted May 30 2 hours ago, Elerond said: They don't have similar punch like for example The Onion https://www.theonion.com/advisors-assure-biden-this-will-blow-over-once-all-gaza-1851452315 Onion is also brilliant "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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