Romance

[Maria Caliban]

Raven,

I think you're mistaking the premise with the conclusion.

 

Raven:

P1: Having hack and slash games feature sappy romances is absurd.

P2, P3

[Raven]

Raven,

I think you're mistaking the premise with the conclusion.

 

Raven:

P1: Having hack and slash games feature sappy romances is absurd.

P2, P3

[Maria Caliban]

At the moment, I'm talking about the fact that we don't have the same conclusion.

[Guest ikaru12345]

Everyone who has been attacking romances in video games and especially in KOTOR, don't take it personally. I didn't mean that a video game isn't as good if it doesn't have romance. Like I said in my first posting, any other game genre works out just fine. Maybe I am a more sentimental guy than others here and maybe That is why I would like to see more romance in video games. I assume that people that posted against much romance in video games don't go for that kind of stuff. If thats the case, then I respect your opinion. And NO, im not talking about a romance that will add 10 hours to a game!!!! that wouldn't be a game, that would be a sope opera. And yes, I also agree that there was more room for improvement in the romance division in KOTOR.

[GhostofAnakin]

video games are used for stuff which is pretty hard , illegal, or impossible to do in the real world:

 

kill people

use a lightsaber + force

fly in a space ship

participate as an NFL player

and so on.

Maybe if you're a 15 year old nerd with no social skills.

 

Most intelligent gamers (is there such a thing?) want more to their games than the ability to chop someone's head off, or to run around aimlessly attacking things just 'cause they can.

[Victus]

The people who bought the GTA games don't care. I guess they're all stupid.

 

[alanschu]

video games are used for stuff which is pretty hard , illegal, or impossible to do in the real world:

 

kill people

use a lightsaber + force

fly in a space ship

participate as an NFL player

and so on.

 

Which explains why The Sims is pretty much the best selling computer game?

 

Having real life elements makes it easier to relate to the game, since we actually know what that element is like.

[Raven]

video games are used for stuff which is pretty hard , illegal, or impossible to do in the real world:

 

kill people

use a lightsaber + force

fly in a space ship

participate as an NFL player

and so on.

Maybe if you're a 15 year old nerd with no social skills.

 

Most intelligent gamers (is there such a thing?) want more to their games than the ability to chop someone's head off, or to run around aimlessly attacking things just 'cause they can.

15 year old nerd with no social skills? i said for stuff you CANT do in the real world or is hard, or is impossible. it seems you use them for life, cause well pretty much, you dont have one. wait a sec, a title for you so you feel special

 

GhostofAnakin

[GhostofAnakin]

Calm down, chief. I never called YOU a 15 year old with no life. I was merely saying that typically it's these 15 year old dorks who care nothing about storyline or dialogue, but would rather be put in a room and beat things up or smash things to death. The type of guys who, when playing games like GTA, don't even bother to complete the missions. They find it "awesome" to run around shooting the old lady on the street multiple times.

 

So for the guy who mentioned GTA, yes it has those aspects, but it also has a STORY to it. I was referring to those people who never bothered with the story and just got an e-rection from killing padestrians on the street with their shotgun.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

They find it "awesome" to run around shooting the old lady on the street multiple times.

Ah, the memories. I personally prefer to lead-fill the prostitutes, but hey, you gotta start somewhere; might as well be with the elderly.

[nightcleaver]

If you still can't see what I'm saying

 

Nice try at being condescending, but i understood what you meant from the beginning.

 

I don't really understand what your problem with romances is.

 

Well, if none of the above was clear enough, then suffice to say that i don't think romances should be included at all in RPGs. Most of the time, the game's premise doesn't even lend itself to their existebce, as you're supposed to develop feelings for characters who have only been traveling with you for a very short time (and which you can barely relate to), and have to pay attention to their calls and needs while simultaneously defending yourself from attacks coming from all sides. If they have to be included for some reason - like pandering to loveless teens who want some virtual nookie - then they shouldn't be taken lightly, and should be mature elements.

Obviously, you can't see what I'm saying. The fact that you said, "nice try at being condescending" proves this.

 

 

Ok, this argument I can work with. (which is all I was saying when I was trying to get you to give examples: 'Something, anything you like about the plot' etc.)

 

I never felt like I was supposed to have feelings for a computer character while I was playing either BGII OR KotOR OR even Ps:T. (I know you aren't even talking about the last one... and to give you an idea how you haven't been understanding me, I feel at this point I need to leave that little reminder in because of how you've been interpreting everything I've said)

What I'm saying is that the Romance is largely dependent on plot. Basically, yes, the romance doesn't fit as well as it could and they push it a bit. Still, I think the romance could and should be salvaged, despite the plot. (the several star maps and Malak were kind of contrived) I also think the CORE of the romance was just fine. Jolee asks you about truly loving, not just an infatuation, and the only response available is, "well...", so we can surmise that your character isn't in love with any of the other character's at that point, and thus it's not expecting you to be. The Carth romance is pretty much just flirtatious... and though I'll take note of the semi-marriage proposal as out of place, it really doesn't push anything on you. It does, however, add character, and most girls seem to like the Carth character just fine for this.

 

Then there's the Bastila romance. There really isn't any "romance" until the end, before which you can treat her basically any way you want as long as you're nice to her in order for this to reach it's summation. She declares her feelings for you, but you have the absolute right to reject her.

The kiss, I think, is just the main character's fooling around. That, just like friendships (which can easily be considered out of place in a game) and family relationships (which can be way out of place) can add to the plot. They have feelings for eachother, apparently; I don't quite see (with how little time is spent on it) how it eats up the plot inappropriately. It's a little melodramatic, but it's star wars. Besides, when people are "infatuated" with eachother, they often say those things whether they know the person really well or not. Obviously, if you don't want your character to go that far, you don't have to.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Obviously, you can't see what I'm saying. The fact that you said, "nice try at being condescending" proves this.

 

You assumed i didn't understood what you meant, when in fact, the next quote:

 

What I'm saying is that the Romance is largely dependent on plot.

 

...is precisely what i had infered from what you wrote back there.

 

And my point was that romances should not be dependant on the plot, or related to it; they should be side events, unrelated. In my opinion, they shouldn't be forced into the main plot of the game. I guess we could go off on what is considered to be a plot, and what plot we're talking about (the main plot, or a would-be specific character plot). For reference i have been talking about the main plot.

 

The Carth romance is pretty much just flirtatious... and though I'll take note of the semi-marriage proposal as out of place, it really doesn't push anything on you. It does, however, add character, and most girls seem to like the Carth character just fine for this.

 

While not exactly good, it's apparently much more tolerable than Annoy-men.

 

Obviously, if you don't want your character to go that far, you don't have to.

 

I know. That's why i mentioned my preference over the Torment romances (which weren't perfect, mind you; they just had the bonus of letting me decide when to move the romance forward, which, although not the perfect solution, was less irritating).

I know that these romances don't force the player to follow them trough, but they use oftentimes annoying gimmicks. There isn't much criticism that can be pointed at KoTOR's romances (except, perhaps, their writing, or the "It seems character X wants to tell you something" dialogues), but Baldur's Gate 2 had annoying timed events with dialogues, which ruined the experience. I'm in a dark cave, half my party is near death, with few spells ready, and i'm about to confront a dragon; i don't need to listen to that wench whine about her freakin' wings for the 734th time. Even if i tell her to shut up, she keeps coming back. Again, i don't have to follow them trough, but i have to put up with inconvenient interruptions until she finally gets the message.

 

And then some developers find it funny to have my character's love interest to be placed in dangerous situations, trying to make me develop more feelings for the character, an example being Bastila's rescue from the hands of Brejik. Its not romance related, but situations with a love interest are being forced on me.

[nightcleaver]

Actually, I was pretty much just talking about the condescending part. That statement had NOTHING to do with being condescending. I AM a little more mature than that, whether or not you suspect otherwise. I'm not going to even try to say you were getting angry with me, but that's not important; repeatedly, you misunderstood the things I said in ways I didn't intend them. THAT'S what you didn't understand.

 

I'd try to get a little more on topic, but there's not much left to say. What a waste.

[Child of Flame]

They find it "awesome" to run around shooting the old lady on the street multiple times.

Ah, the memories. I personally prefer to lead-fill the prostitutes, but hey, you gotta start somewhere; might as well be with the elderly.

You weenie, it's all about the baseball bats and brass knuckles!

 

I personally liked the G-Spotlight and PCJ Playground missions alot better than any of the shooting...except perhaps in the Rhino.....that was fun. :D

[alanschu]

but Baldur's Gate 2 had annoying timed events with dialogues, which ruined the experience. I'm in a dark cave, half my party is near death, with few spells ready, and i'm about to confront a dragon; i don't need to listen to that wench whine about her freakin' wings for the 734th time. Even if i tell her to shut up, she keeps coming back.

 

A lot of the hype about conversations starting at inappropriate times are misleading, as there are many areas in the game where romance conversations simply could not occur (although oddly rooms with dragons in them generally were "appropriate" according to the code, which was kind of silly).

 

 

The romances were triggered based on real-time, and there were areas (such as caves and dungeons) where the triggers could not be activated. So when the time limit on the triggers was reached, if the player was in an "inappropriate" location, the romance would remain queued until the player finally did reach a better location. This is why after adventuring in one of the dungeons all 3 of the romance dialogues would pop up pretty much one after another.

 

I actually tested this by pausing the game in certain areas and coming back later. Immediately following a romance conversation I would pause it, go it dinner or something, and come back and unpause it, and the next stage of the romance would immediately occur.....after about 5 seconds of unpaused time. However, while in dark caves (including the Underdark), I was never able to initiate a romance dialogue.

 

However, there were times that there would be action happening in an area that was deemed "appropriate" (like in Athkatla or the Elf city at the end, or in "Dragon Rooms"), which was silly. I just bring this up because this shows that it was something that Bioware was trying to avoid.

 

 

On the other hand, there are times that I do prefer the NPC initiating a conversation and "forcing" it on you.....because that's what people do! In real life, anyone is capable of initiating a conversation, so why limit it to quest triggers (i.e. walking up to main boss and he talks to you before fighting) or just the PC. I feel this takes away from the suspension of disbelief. If Carth wants to say something, I think he should speak up. Instead of having "Carth looks like he wants to talk," they should have him say "Hey, can I speak with you for a moment?" or something, with an option of "Now's not a good time" if you don't want to talk. Creates a more real environment.

[alanschu]

As for romances/friendships/whatever being completely side quests....look at how little sense that makes.

 

You develop close friendships with the people in your party, maybe even some stronger feelings, but you don't want that to in any way affect the plot?

 

First off, in order to have romances with any sort of depth (and that's not saying a lot....RPG romances are weak) that was a sidequest would require much MORE development time, since it would be entirely in addition to the main plot.

 

Second, it ruins the immersion. If developing strong relationships (not even romances, but friendships) with my party members doesn't in some way affect the main plot, I would consider that to be a mistake. If I am well respected and admired in my group for being a champion of light and all that sort of stuff, if something really bad happens to me I want that person to speak up. If I'm a major jerk, I want the goody-goody person to give me crap about it (or something else perhaps). If a character "loves" me, I want them to act emotional when the villain tells me he killed my family (or some other atrocity).

 

This sort of stuff lends itself to a much more enjoyable game experience than the mere powergaming romp. It's so much more than just doing the plot and going through the motions. There's no depth to it.

 

Should they make your character's romance [essential] to the plot? No. And no game has done this. The rescuing of Bastila cannot be considered "putting your significant other at risk" because it's the first friggin' time you meet her (plus it fails to realize that Bastila is NOT the female PC's option). Baldur's Gate 2, KOTOR, or any other RPG that I can think of that has a romance, makes it entirely optional to the PC, which is just how it should be. But should the relationship be integral to the plot? Absolutely. Your romance is close to you, so however the plot affects you (unless somehow you're in a game where your PC has no bearing on the plot[???]) should also after your partner in at least SOME way.

[Diogo Ribeiro]

The romances were triggered based on real-time, and there were areas (such as caves and dungeons) where the triggers could not be activated. So when the time limit on the triggers was reached, if the player was in an "inappropriate" location, the romance would remain queued until the player finally did reach a better location.

 

Yes, i know. This was even visible, because when the script was being activated, the character makes a small movement (implying it'll make some action; in this case, the dialogue), but it just stood there, and then remained still.

 

This is why after adventuring in one of the dungeons all 3 of the romance dialogues would pop up pretty much one after another.

 

And this is also why it created problems. Ever had the Harpers track down Jaheira delayed until after the Underdark? This happened to me once. It involved going into the Underdark before the final Harper encounter was activated. As i stepped out of the Underdark and talked to the Elves, the Harpers appear, engage in dialogue, and decide to attack me... which also made the Elves hostile.

 

Not very good, i might add.

 

However, there were times that there would be action happening in an area that was deemed "appropriate" (like in Athkatla or the Elf city at the end, or in "Dragon Rooms"), which was silly.

 

Hence why i used the dragon example, as it happened to me often.

 

On the other hand, there are times that I do prefer the NPC initiating a conversation and "forcing" it on you.....because that's what people do! In real life, anyone is capable of initiating a conversation, so why limit it to quest triggers (i.e. walking up to main boss and he talks to you before fighting) or just the PC. I feel this takes away from the suspension of disbelief. If Carth wants to say something, I think he should speak up. Instead of having "Carth looks like he wants to talk," they should have him say "Hey, can I speak with you for a moment?" or something, with an option of "Now's not a good time" if you don't want to talk. Creates a more real environment.

 

I don't think it's rightful to invoke "X feature is right because that's how it happens in real life" or it's "that's how people do it", specially in this case. In real life, if a group of people were in the above situation (ready to confront possible death by means of superior teeth count), i can't imagine someone suddenly bothering me about silly romantic notions, notions which have been discussed in the past. People usually are more discerning in such situations.

 

This isn't to say that i'm completely against Bioware's approach on timed romance dialogues. As far as i'm concerned, both the romances of Torment and BG2 had their pros and cons; and in my mind, an approach that tried to include aspects of both sides would perhaps strike a balance, and a less aggravating experience. In fact, i've stated my feelings about this somewhere, some other time.

[alanschu]

Although, I think one thing that can be mentioned about the "better things to do than have a romance" argument is that a lot of time the characters would spend together is not fully realized.

 

When I say travel to place X in Baldur's Gate 2, sometimes that would be days of travel. Or sometimes resting would be for a very long time too. I easily hit triple digits for the number of days I was on when playing the game (although it's been so long I cannot remember the number). So putting me beside Jaheira/Aerie/Viconia for the better part of a year, and that would be possible.

 

Same with KOTOR. How long does it take to travel from Dantooine to Manaan? The characters do spend a lot of time together over the course of the game if you start to factor stuff like this in.

 

As for piping up moments before a big battle, little things like that are considerations for the programming/design team to try to make sure it is implemented correctly so situations like that do not happen. BG2 had the right idea, it just wasn't implemented thoughtfully enough (which is understandable I guess...it wasn't something really done at the time and it was such a huge project). KOTOR avoided the situation after the earlier parts of the game by not having the NPCs initiate any dialogue which, as you mention, has its own benefits and downfalls.

 

 

However, because the implementations have not been perfect, I do not feel it is a good reason to remove the idea altogether.

 

 

I don't think it's rightful to invoke "X feature is right because that's how it happens in real life" or it's "that's how people do it", specially in this case.

 

I agree that conversations like this shouldn't happen when preparing to fight a dragon or some other tense situation, and I did not mean to suggest that a PC initiating a conversation should happen at one of these points. I was just stating that a PC initiating a conversation on his/her own is not a bad thing, because as the PC I can choose to listen or tell him to be quiet or wait for later....just as you or I could do to each other if we wanted. In short...having someone start a conversation would be welcome.......just not to the point of it being excessive

 

 

As for the Harper quest....that's quite the bug you found

I'm not too surprised that it would be missed since doing the Harpers that late it the game would not be the norm. Certainly would be quite the inconvenience however :D