Malcador Posted November 14, 2023 Share Posted November 14, 2023 That video was an awkward production, the IDF guy looked unaccustomed to being in his kit (and wielding a rifle still for some reason). Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted November 14, 2023 Share Posted November 14, 2023 I was amazed by how staged the whole thing appeared. OK, so it's obviously going to be staged in some respects, but the idea is not to make everything look staged since that is counter productive and ends up making it look fake. (Daniel Hagari is a rear admiral so a senior sailor, not a soldier. Very likely hasn't seen an actual boat either in a while either, any way a certain amount of discomfort is to be expected. But even in the more controlled briefing setting he's got more than a little bit of Bethesda NPC / the AI newsreader from the new Deus Exs about him and I always semi expect him to start talking about how Rucker Hamas has weaponised mudcrabs) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted November 14, 2023 Share Posted November 14, 2023 (edited) Oh ok, I thought he was some press officer or rear echelon guy, just thought they could have easily tapped some NCO and have him do it, even if he'll sound unpolished that'd add authenticity to the presentation. For what it's worth - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/14/world/hamas-hospitals-gaza-israel.html "Mr. Kirby declined to provide details about the U.S. intelligence, but he made clear that it goes beyond the information collected by the Israeli intelligence service. “It comes from a variety of intelligence methods — of our own, of our own,” he said, adding that the classification of the intelligence had been downgraded so that it could be shared publicly." Hm.. Edited November 14, 2023 by Malcador Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted November 14, 2023 Share Posted November 14, 2023 Hagari supposedly runs a lot of social media manipulation type stuff as his normal day job which would make him essentially both a press officer and rear echelon guy. He's definitely an odd choice to front the camera and some of his (if they are his and not from higher up; he's pretty senior though) decisions have been decidedly sloppy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted November 15, 2023 Author Share Posted November 15, 2023 7 hours ago, Malcador said: Oh ok, I thought he was some press officer or rear echelon guy, just thought they could have easily tapped some NCO and have him do it, even if he'll sound unpolished that'd add authenticity to the presentation. For what it's worth - https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/14/world/hamas-hospitals-gaza-israel.html "Mr. Kirby declined to provide details about the U.S. intelligence, but he made clear that it goes beyond the information collected by the Israeli intelligence service. “It comes from a variety of intelligence methods — of our own, of our own,” he said, adding that the classification of the intelligence had been downgraded so that it could be shared publicly." Hm.. Hamas does use hospitals and other civilian structures as operating bases. And this is denied or ignored by many people so thats the purpose of this type of article Israel will generally always lose the PR war or at least the war of Internet "outrage " But they will win the main war and Hamas will no longer be able to operate in Gaza The real questions are going to be " who will manage Gaza once Hamas is gone " and " who is going rebuild Gaza " "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 1 minute ago, BruceVC said: Hamas does use hospitals and other civilian structures as operating bases. And this is denied or ignored by many people so thats the purpose of this type of article Israel will generally always lose the PR war or at least the war of Internet "outrage " But they will win the main war and Hamas will no longer be able to operate in Gaza The real questions are going to be " who will manage Gaza once Hamas is gone " and " who is going rebuild Gaza " Another question is who will be living there as well. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted November 15, 2023 Author Share Posted November 15, 2023 1 minute ago, Malcador said: Another question is who will be living there as well. Well its assumed that Palestinians will return to northern Gaza once the war is over but not until its rebuilt. There are several things that the Israelis haven't thought about or didnt care about . I mentioned this before but they should have used a bombing campaign only in the beginning and then used ground troops only. This would have vastly reduced civilian deaths and damage to infrastructure. I realize they want to avoid unnecessary IDF deaths but in this type of urban warfare you need to consider the consequence of targeting Hamas when they embedded within civilians Because even though the global PR outcomes dont necessarily change military decisions in wars, look at Russia in Ukraine, it does matter in this war because you seeing both anti-semitic and Islamophobia on the increase in many countries. And most of us dont want to be dragged into that because of a war in the ME where leadership on both sides are intransigent and refuse to compromise "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xzar_monty Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 5 hours ago, BruceVC said: But they will win the main war and Hamas will no longer be able to operate in Gaza The real questions are going to be " who will manage Gaza once Hamas is gone " and " who is going rebuild Gaza " Israel's attempt to wipe out Hamas will more than likely just breed and create room for more radicalization, so I'm not sure at all where your rather naive-looking certainty is coming from. The problem itself doesn't go away if Hamas is done for and simply replaced by Hamas II or even The Revenge of the Empire of the Son of Hamas Strikes Back Again. As for the questions you pose, the first looks hopelessly premature and the second is, indeed, quite real, but not really pertinent at this point. We can almost rest assured that Israel will have no interest in any kind of rebuilding project concerning people they regard as expendable and worth murdering just like that. We are, again, at the process of reaping the results of problems that were created at the same time that Israel itself was created. Israel's recent policy has been utterly hopeless and downright terrible, from any kind of humanist viewpoint, and it's such a shame for all concerned that Israel is a) quite effective and b) blatantly murderous at the same time, unlike, say, Russia. (Russia obviously has other flaws that Israel doesn't, but that's another question altogether.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uuuhhii Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 5 minutes ago, xzar_monty said: where your rather naive-looking certainty is coming from. pretty sure it is all sugarcoated dribble but since this is the Internet there is always a chance people actually believe what they are saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted November 15, 2023 Author Share Posted November 15, 2023 6 minutes ago, xzar_monty said: Israel's attempt to wipe out Hamas will more than likely just breed and create room for more radicalization, so I'm not sure at all where your rather naive-looking certainty is coming from. The problem itself doesn't go away if Hamas is done for and simply replaced by Hamas II or even The Revenge of the Empire of the Son of Hamas Strikes Back Again. No its not naive if you understand what the Israeli military objective is and we have discussed this many times before We all know you cant kill an ideology, I know that, you know that and the Israelis know that. But you can absolutely remove all Hamas bases in Gaza and destroy there tunnel infrastructure especially in the north of Gaza. Then you ensure that Hamas doesnt govern Gaza anymore so they cant plan another 7 October. They will still exist in other countries and the ideology will exist but they wont be on the border of Israel with resources . But it adds a real geographical obstacle to future 7 October attacks Its an effective and obvious strategy that can work and its no different to other examples where Islamic extremist groups like ISIS operating bases were destroyed and that vastly reduces there operating capability. So there is precedent for it as well But I dont agree with the heavy handed approach the Israelis are following and using missiles strikes that kill Hamas and civilians. Thats why I have mentioned they should be using ground troops only at this stage of the offensive "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted November 15, 2023 Author Share Posted November 15, 2023 13 minutes ago, uuuhhii said: pretty sure it is all sugarcoated dribble but since this is the Internet there is always a chance people actually believe what they are saying Rather ask me to explain my view than making assumptions about what you think I mean "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoonDing Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 "Targeted operation" inside hospital = shoot everything that moves and everything that doesn't move, then plant evidence in the basement The ending of the words is ALMSIVI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xzar_monty Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 19 minutes ago, BruceVC said: No its not naive if you understand what the Israeli military objective is and we have discussed this many times before Actually, we have not discussed this even once before. You do recognize that your "I dont agree" and "they should be using" sound just a tiny bit callous, don't you? The Israel army is bombing civilians, murdering children and creating wanton wholesale destruction at an astonishing rate while you're going "I don't agree with that in the workplace!" like a proper David Brent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uuuhhii Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 if something smell like civility politics throw it away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted November 15, 2023 Author Share Posted November 15, 2023 35 minutes ago, xzar_monty said: Actually, we have not discussed this even once before. You do recognize that your "I dont agree" and "they should be using" sound just a tiny bit callous, don't you? The Israel army is bombing civilians, murdering children and creating wanton wholesale destruction at an astonishing rate while you're going "I don't agree with that in the workplace!" like a proper David Brent. "We " was used as general term because I have made several posts about what the stated Israeli military objective is and they have publicly mentioned it on many occasions. They want to wipe out Hamas in Gaza and destroy there operating bases. I also assumed you have been following this conflict and the Israelis have never said they want to end the Hamas ideology because you can't kill an ideology "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 1 hour ago, HoonDing said: "Targeted operation" inside hospital = shoot everything that moves and everything that doesn't move, then plant evidence in the basement Well they didn't do that in Al Shifa at least. Although they brought incubators even though the hospital has been stating they need fuel for a while. Here's hoping the IDF walkthrough video is better this time Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xzar_monty Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 1 hour ago, BruceVC said: They want to wipe out Hamas in Gaza and destroy there operating bases. I would contend that that's fair after the Hamas strike. However, what they are doing is much more than that. When he was directing the NKVD, Nikolai Yezhov famously said that "When you chop wood, chips fly" (though the saying was not his invention), which was intended as a justification. But you would have to be a particularly cold-hearted person to accept that. Yezhov, of course, fairly soon became one of the chips himself, which I'd again contend was fair -- but the millions of others were not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmp10 Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 8 hours ago, BruceVC said: Well its assumed that Palestinians will return to northern Gaza once the war is over but not until its rebuilt. That's far from given. Israeli officials are testing the waters on unloading refugees to other countries. Their record on allowing Palestinians to move back is not that great. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted November 15, 2023 Author Share Posted November 15, 2023 https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/bbc-apologizes-over-israel-hamas-120525521.html Here is an example of the misreporting going around in this conflict but this apology was towards Israel "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted November 15, 2023 Author Share Posted November 15, 2023 Just now, pmp10 said: That's far from given. Israeli officials are testing the waters on unloading refugees to other countries. Their record on allowing Palestinians to move back is not that great. Yes and that's a ridiculous and unhelpful suggestion from far-right Israeli politicians and no one's going to take it seriously. You notice they suggest "the West "must take them in Israel definitely cant expect anyone to absorb 2 million Palestinians, who is going to take that economic and social burden? The only realistic solution to sustained peace is a 2 state solution But leadership on both sides isnt prepared to compromise and there is a lack of political will. I predict the Palestinians will stay in Gaza but it needs to be rebuilt "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcador Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 Was expecting some sort of vast underground complex. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 They didn't actually expect to find much given the number of troops they sent in. Certainly no 'beating heart'. Never know though, maybe Good Guy Israel siphoned that 300L of fuel they offered out of one of the Merkava tanks. It'd be about 3% of the fuel they drove in, in their tanks alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pmp10 Posted November 15, 2023 Share Posted November 15, 2023 7 hours ago, BruceVC said: Yes and that's a ridiculous and unhelpful suggestion from far-right Israeli politicians and no one's going to take it seriously. You notice they suggest "the West "must take them in Israel definitely cant expect anyone to absorb 2 million Palestinians, who is going to take that economic and social burden? The only realistic solution to sustained peace is a 2 state solution But leadership on both sides isnt prepared to compromise and there is a lack of political will. I predict the Palestinians will stay in Gaza but it needs to be rebuilt One of these politicians is actually on the Israeli left. There is no telling what consensus emerges in Israel after the fighting is done. But rumors are already flying that southern Gaza is next and may end up as little more than 50km² 'safe zone'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted November 16, 2023 Share Posted November 16, 2023 They just don't do genocide like they used to in the old days... Europeans used to be good at that. No rebellions or uprisings when there is nobody left to rebel or rise up. The world has grown soft... Just kidding of course, but they are still all discussing fighting the symptoms of a problem instead of addressing the cause. Edit: which would be something along the lines of too many people kicked out of their homes with nowhere to go but refugee camps and walled in ghettos and no discernible future. Refugee camps with people that have no home and no future will always be a breeding ground for violent agitators 1 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted November 16, 2023 Author Share Posted November 16, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Gorth said: They just don't do genocide like they used to in the old days... Europeans used to be good at that. No rebellions or uprisings when there is nobody left to rebel or rise up. The world has grown soft... Just kidding of course, but they are still all discussing fighting the symptoms of a problem instead of addressing the cause. Edit: which would be something along the lines of too many people kicked out of their homes with nowhere to go but refugee camps and walled in ghettos and no discernible future. Refugee camps with people that have no home and no future will always be a breeding ground for violent agitators Gorthfuscious what's your view on a sustainable solution to this decades long conflict? I am not sure if you have noticed but generally most people only get involved or have an opinion when there is an active conflict like what happened on 7 October and then the views are just about the responses that both sides make because we are dealing with symptoms But what should leadership on both sides agree to in the interests of peace? Lets say you were in charge of negotiations, what reasonable demands would you raise? Edited November 16, 2023 by BruceVC "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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