Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Part 6

[HoonDing]

I toyed around a bit with character creation. What deity should a chaotic stupid fighter type pick, Gorum?

Edited July 4, 2023 by HoonDing

[kanisatha]

21 hours ago, InsaneCommander said:

Who recruited a squadron of Babaus and left it in Drezen? No wonder the place was invaded! Are they deserters*?

 

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And why is it so difficult to go to the Hellknights outpost? Even with teleport? First I find Sul, who needs an escort to Drezen. Then it’s Ember’s fan club. Wonder who will turn up next time. My bet is on Early Sunset.

Well, at least time will pass and my generals will return to lead the armies. I’m supposed to conquer all regions in the Worldwound and get to all these “time sensitive” quests. I hope at least Iz is not really a timed event.

*Ok, after doing Ember's quest I have an idea where those Babaus came from.

I assumed they were the demon slaves I freed when I killed the slave traders in the slave market area of the demon city.

[Gromnir]

9 hours ago, HoonDing said:

I toyed around a bit with character creation. What deity should a chaotic stupid fighter type pick, Gorum?

depends on your chosen stimulant/depressant:

alcohol: cayden cailean

psychedelics: desna

coke: gorum

meth: lamashtu

weed: gozreh

caffeine-- to stay awake in anticipation o' fighting undead during the hour of the wolf: pharasma

all of the above: rovagug

HA! Good Fun!

ps elf + coke and psychedelics: calistria

Edited July 4, 2023 by Gromnir

[InsaneCommander]

That Hellknight quest was fun. And it will be even funnier when I play as Trickster. Regill compared the commander and some of her companions to demons. Sure, he didn't take any part in that.

I know he was lying on the ground and couldn’t do much more than that, but keeping an expressionless face and avoiding making any sounds is quite a feat for someone under the effect of the Hideous Laughter spell.

 

Spoiler

 

1 hour ago, kanisatha said:

I assumed they were the demon slaves I freed when I killed the slave traders in the slave market area of the demon city.

That must be the case. But they are also in Ember's fan club now for sure.

12 hours ago, roguefrog said:

The penultimate boss fight was also hilariously easy. I used the waterfall Azata spell which is great and has a chance to knock down an enemy. Sure enough he got knocked down. The rest of the fight was my melee completely hacking the guy on the floor to pieces.

Azata spells can be really useful. Every time Ember complains about resting I cast the rejuvenating spell and just keep going on. Strangely, Nenio never complains, despite being more encumbered.

[InsaneCommander]

Between the Mythic Dretch runners and Svendack’s swarms, the Ineluctable Prison proved itself much more of a challenge than what I had seen before in this part of the game. The first time I killed her everyone got bubonic plague and CON damage. I tried again and managed to restrict it to Seelah and her horse. But then Svendack bugged and didn't drop anything. So I decided to reload and heal the CON damage by resting, “cheating” with the option in the difficulty settings. F*** swarms. And their mother Svendack too, she actually seemed to be giving birth during the fight since their numbers increased.

Oh, and now there are more demons in my army. Well done, Ember.

[HoonDing]

Is the shaman chick enough to take care of all the rogue stuff in the game? Was going to play rogue myself but went with something else in the end. Too many enticing flavor options.

Edited July 6, 2023 by HoonDing

[Gromnir]

3 hours ago, HoonDing said:

Is the shaman chick enough to take care of all the rogue stuff in the game? Was going to play rogue myself but went with something else in the end. Too many enticing flavor options.

crazycakes is 99% good enough to disarm traps and open locks. few wotr traps is genuine lethal regardless. is also maybe a couple chests where your main character will be solo, thus the 99%. if you are genuine concerned, put one point in traps and with skill and dex boosts you should be able to overcome those exceeding rare obstacles. however, spotting traps and hidden stuff is the other aspect o' the thief skills. perception is also a useful dialogue skill. ideally your main character should have high perception, but most perception checks is gonna be overcome by your party. wotr offers multiple party npcs who may achieve high perception, but if you got them positioned at the rear o' your party, they may be poor situated to spot traps before your vanguard stumbles across 'em. 

regardless, we would say if you are willing to suffer camellia for the entire game, she should be satisfactory at handling "rogue stuff."

HA! Good Fun!

[InsaneCommander]

4 hours ago, Gromnir said:

if you are willing to suffer camellia for the entire game, she should be helpful at handling "rogue stuff."

Fixed that for you.

[InsaneCommander]

Early Sunset (Azata spoilers)

 

Spoiler

WTF is the deal with this battle? I tried it a few times in RtwP and every single time my party was wiped out in seconds. Life-Bond Friendship apparently doesn’t work. Tried to Dispel his buffs before the battle, but there is no chance. Goggles of Pure Sight are not enough, be it for Seelah’s Radiance, Nenio or Ember. Tried to split my party, but it makes no difference, he fills everything with lava in two or three rounds and wipes most characters out with his Fire Storms.

I was considering creating a merc just to Dispel his buffs and/or trying to Dismiss him, but I changed to TB mode instead and it made the fight absurdly easier. Once. Aure used Midnight bolts, my mc Instrument of Freedom, Sosiel used Stormbolts, Nenio and Ember chain lightning, (I forgot about the bracers that turn all spells into lightining) and Seelah simply attacked him. It was actually pretty easy.

Then I tried again twice because I thought it wasn’t necessary to spend the Midnight bolts. On the first retry he wiped almost everyone in his first round. Seelah survived because she has Last Stand, and Arue and my mc were in different locations, because I thought he would focus on the Commander and Arue is far away because she can attack from a long distance. Without the chain lightning and Sosiel's healing I tried again and it simply took him an extra turn to do the same. Decided not to bother with it anymore.

I guess initiative defines everything? Perhaps if I was lucky, RtwP was doable?

If I abandoned the Azata path, would he still show up?

Btw, I never felt so proud of cannon fodder summons. They really believed they could Dispel that guy’s buffs. The air elementals and angels even managed to hurt him sometimes too. Same for Seelah's horse. Forget about Mythic powers, this guy can probably kill all the Demon Lords, the gods and Rovagug all at the same time.

 

Anyway, lost my Aasimar wings (and the AC bonus!), reached Mythic 9 and since I had a green version of my character’s portrait (of worse quality, truth be told), I used it as the Azata's new appearance.

 

Spoiler

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by InsaneCommander

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

29 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

Early Sunset (Azata spoilers)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

WTF is the deal with this battle? I tried it a few times in RtwP and every single time my party was wiped out in seconds. Life-Bond Friendship apparently doesn’t work. Tried to Dispel his buffs before the battle, but there is no chance. Goggles of Pure Sight are not enough, be it for Seelah’s Radiance, Nenio or Ember. Tried to split my party, but it makes no difference, he fills everything with lava in two or three rounds and wipes most characters out with his Fire Storms.

I was considering creating a merc just to Dispel his buffs and/or trying to Dismiss him, but I changed to TB mode instead and it made the fight absurdly easier. Once. Aure used Midnight bolts, my mc Instrument of Freedom, Sosiel used Stormbolts, Nenio and Ember chain lightning, (I forgot about the bracers that turn all spells into lightining) and Seelah simply attacked him. It was actually pretty easy.

Then I tried again twice because I thought it wasn’t necessary to spend the Midnight bolts. On the first retry he wiped almost everyone in his first round. Seelah survived because she has Last Stand, and Arue and my mc were in different locations, because I thought he would focus on the Commander and Arue is far away because she can attack from a long distance. Without the chain lightning and Sosiel's healing I tried again and it simply took him an extra turn to do the same. Decided not to bother with it anymore.

I guess initiative defines everything? Perhaps if I was lucky, RtwP was doable?

If I abandoned the Azata path, would he still show up?

Btw, I never felt so proud of cannon fodder summons. They really believed they could Dispel that guy’s buffs. The air elementals and angels even managed to hurt him sometimes too. Same for Seelah's horse. Forget about Mythic powers, this guy can probably kill all the Demon Lords, the gods and Rovagug all at the same time.

 

Anyway, lost my Aasimar wings (and the AC bonus!), reached Mythic 9 and since I had a green version of my character’s portrait (of worse quality, truth be told), I used it as the Azata's new appearance.

 

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Spoiler

If you abandon the Azata path for Legend, Mephistopheles shows up to help you out along with several other characters from other mythic paths like Aivu and Zac the Bone Dad. Presumably he's there as the representative for the Aeon, because a mirror that hates you doesn't want to help with the Worldwound unless you're an insufferable cosmic bureaucrat.

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by PK htiw klaw eriF

[Zoraptor]

That fight seems to rely entirely on luck. Probably the most annoying of my entire playthrough. Most of the time even if you lost you got some useful feedback, with that one the feedback was that nothing worked.

(IIRC when I did win after, uh, one or two party wipes, no one had died so it was entirely an all or nothing result*. Just not a very well designed fight at all

*not sure if I posted about it here, and I'd stand to be corrected if I did)

Edited July 7, 2023 by Zoraptor

[Gromnir]

51 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

Early Sunset (Azata spoilers)

 

 

Spoiler

life bond friendship should still work, just not the way it once did. nerfed a bit. life bond friendship also interferes with the last stand mythic.

y'know, am not recalling what is "early sunset's" stats on core or hard, but on unfair you need only overcome a 69 ac, which is relative low for act v bosses and his first action is to summon support, so you effective get a free round before he begins spamming hellfire and dictum. you may prebuff for this battle and is possible to put down a guarded hearth before you initiate the dialogue which triggers battle. assuming you got seelah, she is gonna cast mark of justice immediately, at which point pretty much every melee capable character will likely be able to hit the archdevil. a cleric such as sosiel using touch o' madness is helpful but maybe overkill. touch ac for the fiend is 41. also, while mephistopheles is immune to crits and precision damage, outflank and ever ready is nevertheless gonna be triggered by your crits-- you should see the stacking attacks of opportunity from your party.

the battle is considerable tougher if you are caster focused. early sunset is indeed immune and/or highly resistant to... lots. his saves is not much better than his ac, but that don't matter if he is immune to effects. he also has loads o' hp.

curious, mephisto's ac were actual a bit less stout when we fought him during the aeon mythic-- 67. why 67 instead o' 69? dunno. we kinda went down the list o' buffs and ability scores and everything looked the same save ac... but we only kinda casual scrolled through the list. on the down side, the archdevil doesn't have many buffs active, so an aeon's sooper dispelling ability doesn't dramatically weaken the fiend. foresight, greater heroism, mage armour, true seeing and barkskin? if he had anything more we do not recall. am s'posing that is kinda good news for you as your dispelling efforts wouldn't have made a huge difference anyways.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[InsaneCommander]

14 hours ago, Zoraptor said:

That fight seems to rely entirely on luck. Probably the most annoying of my entire playthrough. Most of the time even if you lost you got some useful feedback, with that one the feedback was that nothing worked.

(IIRC when I did win after, uh, one or two party wipes, no one had died so it was entirely an all or nothing result*. Just not a very well designed fight at all

*not sure if I posted about it here, and I'd stand to be corrected if I did)

Perfect description of this battle.

14 hours ago, Gromnir said:

  Hide contents

his first action is to summon support, so you effective get a free round

HA! Good Fun!

This seems to be random too. The pictures below were taken at the beginning of the battle on my first and second TB retries. In the first one he summoned only two creatures and wiped out all of my summons and most of the party (if you count the mounts), the survivors being the ones that were in different locations and Seelah, who has the Last Stand ability. In the second, he focused on summoning and barely hurt my side.
 

Spoiler

 

[Gromnir]

12 hours ago, InsaneCommander said:

 

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but he does start with a summons. the sciroccos and other stuff technical happen after the summons and may be interrupted in rtwp.  am knowing most folks seem to think this battle is easier in tb, but is possible to utter emasculate him in rtwp. have done the battle multiple times for azata and aeon routes and thus far he always started with summons and chances are he don't get any other action if you rush him with a strong melee party.

your own summons can be problematic as well as they lead to a potential charlie fox making it less likely your melee will reach and potential interrupt your opponent. sometimes less clutter is an advantage, or at least if you have a strong melee party.  this battle is so not like playful darkness who is a melee engine o' destruction. summon a wall o' summons is less beneficial. 

you got a ranged and caster heavy party which as already noted is not ideal for this battle. the boss in question has a relative unimpressive ac and cmd. if you surround him with melee combatants who all have outflank and most of whom have ever ready, he should go down quick enough. if you are going court poet am understanding why your party is mostly casters + seelah, but there is nothing wrong with switching things up for this battle. for example, regill has high dex and with levels o' sacred huntsmaster you may stick him on a velociraptor or some other critter. 

aside, we did try and do the battle via an old azata save and we got a bug in spite o' no mods-- the boss in question has 3hp. he has 64 ac on core and with all buffs he gots a functional ac o' 72 on unfair, both o' which is zero challenge for our level 19 party, but he nevertheless has only 3hp and his caster level is presumable set at 1, so is kinda a pointless encounter in our game at the moment. will check an earlier azata save later to see if that is also bugged. weird.

edit: fixed the bug

did again on unfair and core and the battle is clear skewed in favor o' a party which is able to deal weapon damage asap. our party were lann (zenn archer/divine hunter with a velociraptor,) regill (got 12 levels o' sacred huntsmaster and a velociraptor,) ember as a fire spammer, sosiel with 1 level o' crossblood sorc to exploit ice spells (no madness domain, rides a boar) seelah with 1 level of sohei, and the main is a skald/crossblood sorc (18/1). no protective luck or fortune exploits. regill with his bane boosted gnome hook hammer and lann's velociraptor were co-mvps although the guarded hearth + mark of justice + skald bonuses were functional what were the winning formula and we would need to serious rethink our approach with a caster party.

raptors has been nerfed considerable but a celestial raptor nevertheless provides significant damage potential for boss battles. 

ember died each time we did the fight on unfair but survived on core.

boss ac on unfair with all buffs is actual 91 but that were not a genuine problem. 

additional late edit: 

if our game saves weren't so temporal remote, we definite would include ulbrig in a party to take on the particular boss in question. greyboar dishes out serious pain, but his precision damage is wasted in this battle and he is so slow, relative speaking. trever is not complete terrible, but he is also slow. we do not use camellia, but for most non ranged builds she is crit driven, although if you give her the metal curse her usefulness increases significant.  arueshalae is ranged but her instant enemy + hunter's bond is gonna power up your entire party so she is a good choice in our opinion. even so, am thinking ulbrig and regill is obvious choices. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited July 8, 2023 by Gromnir

[InsaneCommander]

On 7/7/2023 at 1:36 AM, Gromnir said:

on unfair you need only overcome a 69 ac, which is relative low for act v bosses

On normal his ac is 59. I just fought Deskari and his ac is 50. I think Owlcat forgot to adjust someone's stats in one level of difficulty or another.

Edit: Deskari is vulnerable to Dazzling Display, one more reason the Azata battle is much more difficult. I guess people on Golarion are lucky the invasion is from the Abyss. If it was from Hell, it would probably succeed.

Edited July 11, 2023 by InsaneCommander

[Gromnir]

3 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

On normal his ac is 59. I just fought Deskari and his ac is 50. I think Owlcat forgot to adjust someone's stats in one level of difficulty or another.

there has been a few changes with the azata mythic boss since release. original his ac were in the 40s. people understandably complained 'bout what a pushover he were in spite o' his massive levels. yeah, every round he would do a mass summons and unleash fire spells which did irresistible divine damage, but with the comical low ac the battle were kinda a joke. am pretty sure that initial ac were a bug 'cause after a few patches he were buffed a bit. 

maybe owlcat overcompensated? 

HA! Good Fun!

[HoonDing]

I don't really get the whole Worldwound shtick. Why wouldn't all gods immediately assemble and deal with it? Even the ebul gods wouldn't really like demons conquering the world, enslaving/destroying all their worshippers and have a chance at replacing them

Or does the setting have their own Ao who tells them to stay put

Edited July 12, 2023 by HoonDing

[Gromnir]

10 minutes ago, HoonDing said:

I don't really get the whole Worldwound shtick. Why wouldn't all gods immediately assemble and deal with it?

one of the gods eventual answers that exact question. so you only need wait a few dozen hours to get get your answer. 

however, keep in mind wotr ain't dostoyevsky. if you are expecting a good explanation, you will be disappointed. owlcat takes the anime approach and feeds you a plate full o' implausible exposition and then just kinda moves forward as quick as possible hopeful you won't dwell on the inadequacy o' their contrived explanation.

an observation from captain obvious: wotr is an EPIC adventure in which mortals is the driving force in a conflict between vast and enigmatic cosmic forces. the main goal is to make the players feel important and powerful and not to reveal heretofore hidden or unrealized truths about the human condition. hoonding's character is vital and the answer you seek need only confirm that necessity.

HA! Good Fun!

[xzar_monty]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

however, keep in mind wotr ain't dostoyevsky. if you are expecting a good explanation, you will be disappointed. owlcat takes the anime approach and feeds you a plate full o' implausible exposition and then just kinda moves forward as quick as possible hopeful you won't dwell on the inadequacy o' their contrived explanation.

To quote David Foster Wallace and his great essay on Terminator 2: "Plot and character implausibilities are to be handled through distraction rather than resolved through explanation."

(The essay, in a fairly uncomfortable layout, can be found at https://www.michaelfuchs.org/re/index.php?story=2010-03-01.)

[InsaneCommander]

There could be other reasons. A hundred years for a God is like a day for mortals, so perhaps they might intervene one day and think the situation is still under control? Doesn't apply to Iomedae since she is younger than the Worldwound though.

My guess is that there is some cosmic rule that makes it dangerous to interfere. Maybe coming to the material plane makes other beings weaker? Could it wake Rovagug up? Or are they afraid of characters with Dazzling Display? I fought with Horzalah and was shocked to see the first powerful demon that is immune to fear. It seems to be the exception so who knows, the gods could be vulnerable to it too?

Late game spoilers:

Spoiler

The excuse that it would cause an interdimensional war doesn't make sense to me. If the Demon Lords could organize and attack Heaven or Elysium, then why not do it now? Yes, I know they are chaotic, but don't they wonder about this question too and ask themselves why the gods won't act?

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

56 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

There could be other reasons. A hundred years for a God is like a day for mortals, so perhaps they might intervene one day and think the situation is still under control? Doesn't apply to Iomedae since she is younger than the Worldwound though.

My guess is that there is some cosmic rule that makes it dangerous to interfere. Maybe coming to the material plane makes other beings weaker? Could it wake Rovagug up? Or are they afraid of characters with Dazzling Display? I fought with Horzalah and was shocked to see the first powerful demon that is immune to fear. It seems to be the exception so who knows, the gods could be vulnerable to it too?

Late game spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

The excuse that it would cause an interdimensional war doesn't make sense to me. If the Demon Lords could organize and attack Heaven or Elysium, then why not do it now? Yes, I know they are chaotic, but don't they wonder about this question too and ask themselves why the gods won't act?

 

I think the idea is that Iomedae outright killing Deskarii herself would unite the Abyss by providing them with a common enemy, and that in turn would get all the other gods and planes to jump in. Honestly it's not very convincing because some of the other gods and planes are already involved on some way or another....and because Aroden already did it back when he was still around. At the end of the day it's just an excuse to have your party deal with it instead.

Anyways.....I found a mod for a Swashbuckler with the Rostland Bravo archetype. This is bad news for the Aldori Defender, who now has competition for the classic "While you were getting mythic power I studied the blade" builds.

And after several rerolls I think I got my Lich down and will finally play an evil necromancer. I kinda want to do the silly little cat romance because

There's something fitting about sacrificing her for power. Daeran is getting killed off for The Other's AC bonus.

[InsaneCommander]

1 hour ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

I think the idea is that Iomedae outright killing Deskarii herself would unite the Abyss by providing them with a common enemy

What if she is smarter than she seems and knows that she doesn't need to, since the Commander can do it?

1 hour ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

And after several rerolls I think I got my Lich down and will finally play an evil necromancer. I kinda want to do the silly little cat romance because

That will be next for me. I literally can't wait for it and I'm already planning. If BG3 is buggy enough on release, I will leave it for 2024 and start a new PWotR pt. I'll begin as a reasonably decent "the ends justify the means" necromancer who genuinely just wants to stop the demonic invasion. And then I'll go full insane with power and sacrifice anything (and everyone) for it.

I imagine I'll probably get a reaction like this when the crusaders realise I have become a Lich:

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

21 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

What if she is smarter than she seems and knows that she doesn't need to, since the Commander can do it?

Then she's not that smart because in most non-sekrit endings Deskari doesn't die and in at least three endings the Worldwound stays open (and even expands for one). Really it's just plot **** and shouldn't be read into anymore than that.

23 minutes ago, InsaneCommander said:

That will be next for me. I literally can't wait for it and I'm already planning. If BG3 is buggy enough on release, I will leave it for 2024 and start a new PWotR pt. I'll begin as a reasonably decent "the ends justify the means" necromancer who genuinely just wants to stop the demonic invasion. And then I'll go full insane with power and sacrifice anything (and everyone) for it.

I imagine I'll probably get a reaction like this when the crusaders realise I have become a Lich:

 

I'll guarantee that BG3 will be a mess for quite a long time. No horny vampire yet.

My Lich is going to be power hungry from the start, rp'd as someone who came in search of power above all. I don't like making the Lich a skelly, I much prefer the decaying or preserved but clearly undead Lich aesthetics.

It sets it apart from other undead and is more unsettling imo. I do like Arazni's more recent design but she's more of an outright goddess now so I went with classic Lich Queen art as an example.

And you know who else was an anime undead monster who raised an army of the dead?

Too bad Time Stop isn't in the game. No ZA WARUDO for my Lich.

[InsaneCommander]

Nice portraits.

53 minutes ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

Too bad Time Stop isn't in the game. No ZA WARUDO for my Lich.

Somebody needs to mod it in asap, since it fits the Overlord character as well.

53 minutes ago, PK htiw klaw eriF said:

I'll guarantee that BG3 will be a mess for quite a long time. No horny vampire yet.

No surprise if it happens. I tried to play a little more of it, and the game crashed twice. I know the available version is old, but we all have seen this before and know how it is.

[HoonDing]

Cracks me up you can have a paladin open locks and disarm traps

Where's Keldorn when you need him