Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous, Part 6

[Gromnir]

@Gorth

am failing at the dreaded double-post, so apologies.

...

is kinda munchkiny, but as were were discussing the ez overlooked, am feeling is worth mentioning a post release change owlcat made to angels and liches: they screwed spontaneous casters.

the combined spellbook for the lich and angel works different for prepared v. spontaneous casters. a lich wizard has their spell selection caster level set as wizard level + mythic level. so a level ten lich wizard with three mythic levels is choosing spells as if they is level thirteen. ok, but what does that mean? a level ten wheezard may choose to learn arcane spells up to level five but a level ten lich wizard may learn and cast level seven spells.

as you has no doubt noticed, a lich sorcerer also has their effective caster level increased, but they do not learn their ordinary arcane spells at an accelerated rank. at level ten your sorc may choose to learn spells up to level five. as a sorc you do receive mythic spells at an accelerated rate compared to a monk or cavalier, but unlike gorth's sorc, a wizard lich is likely gonna be casting their level nine spells 'bout the same time they reach level four mythic midway through act iii. 

just an fyi in case this change were overlooked or unknown. you are gonna be plenty powerful as a sorc lich and there is no need to respec, but it kinda sucks if you weren't aware o' the difference 'tween lich spontaneous v. prepared caster levels.  heck, our anticipated lich (eventual redeemed as a gold dragon) is planned as a sorc, so is not as if am thinking going sorc lich is terribad.

aside: the promancers has successful changed our mind. for our next wotr run am gonna indulge a romance. in spite o' all o' our complaints 'bout crpg romances and owlcat writing, am gonna take the promancer plunge. huzzah!

even more improbable, am gonna romance camellia who is arguable our least favorite wotr companion, though is a close race to the bottom 'tween wenduag and camellia. 

'course am going with the lich route, so....

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorth]

2 hours ago, Gromnir said:

@Gorth

am failing at the dreaded double-post, so apologies.

...

is kinda munchkiny, but as were were discussing the ez overlooked, am feeling is worth mentioning a post release change owlcat made to angels and liches: they screwed spontaneous casters.

the combined spellbook for the lich and angel works different for prepared v. spontaneous casters. a lich wizard has their spell selection caster level set as wizard level + mythic level. so a level ten lich wizard with three mythic levels is choosing spells as if they is level thirteen. ok, but what does that mean? a level ten wheezard may choose to learn arcane spells up to level five but a level ten lich wizard may learn and cast level seven spells.

as you has no doubt noticed, a lich sorcerer also has their effective caster level increased, but they do not learn their ordinary arcane spells at an accelerated rank. at level ten your sorc may choose to learn spells up to level five. as a sorc you do receive mythic spells at an accelerated rate compared to a monk or cavalier, but unlike gorth's sorc, a wizard lich is likely gonna be casting their level nine spells 'bout the same time they reach level four mythic midway through act iii. 

just an fyi in case this change were overlooked or unknown. you are gonna be plenty powerful as a sorc lich and there is no need to respec, but it kinda sucks if you weren't aware o' the difference 'tween lich spontaneous v. prepared caster levels.  heck, our anticipated lich (eventual redeemed as a gold dragon) is planned as a sorc, so is not as if am thinking going sorc lich is terribad.

aside: the promancers has successful changed our mind. for our next wotr run am gonna indulge a romance. in spite o' all o' our complaints 'bout crpg romances and owlcat writing, am gonna take the promancer plunge. huzzah!

even more improbable, am gonna romance camellia who is arguable our least favorite wotr companion, though is a close race to the bottom 'tween wenduag and camellia. 

'course am going with the lich route, so....

HA! Good Fun!

Thanks for the heads up. I seem to remember from my first game, that spontaneous casters had a narrower choice per spell level than prepared casters (by keeping an eye on what Nenio could choose compared to Ember). I wasn't taking proper notes so to speak, playing low magic, all hack, slash and head butt character at the time. The combined spell book is a first time experience. I'll stick to sorcerer as the "base" class for now. Playing "normal" difficulty, so with a bit of thinking, persevering and luck, most obstacles should be possible to overcome

 

Doesn't mean I won't experiment a bit in say 5 levels time, give or take a few. Did the same thing with my barbarian where I respecced a number of times at points in the game, just to try out alternative barbarian and fighter specializations, ending up returning to my original class again (or something close to) and continue the story (and the ending up with an obscene level 20+20 character)

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

2 hours ago, Gorth said:

Thanks for the heads up. I seem to remember from my first game, that spontaneous casters had a narrower choice per spell level than prepared casters (by keeping an eye on what Nenio could choose compared to Ember). I wasn't taking proper notes so to speak, playing low magic, all hack, slash and head butt character at the time. The combined spell book is a first time experience. I'll stick to sorcerer as the "base" class for now. Playing "normal" difficulty, so with a bit of thinking, persevering and luck, most obstacles should be possible to overcome

 

Doesn't mean I won't experiment a bit in say 5 levels time, give or take a few. Did the same thing with my barbarian where I respecced a number of times at points in the game, just to try out alternative barbarian and fighter specializations, ending up returning to my original class again (or something close to) and continue the story (and the ending up with an obscene level 20+20 character)

If you're doing merged spellbooks with a Sorcerer chances are the unique Lich spells will be close to best in slot anyways, so the slower learning isn't as bad as it may seem. Of course I use a mod that bypasses that, because spontaneous casters are already a level behind for spells so Owlcat's fix seemed unnecessary. It's not like a merged caster won't melt half the game anyways.

Off hand I'd say that you want to maximize caster level to get 10th level spells, so if you want to go outside Sorcerer a prc that gives caster level would be best. I think there is an argument for Loremaster, but just play around and see what works.

[Sarex]

I was just forced to play TB mode. What a horrid experience.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

11 minutes ago, Sarex said:

I was just forced to play TB mode. What a horrid experience.

It plays better in TB. Stop being naughty

[Sarex]

18 minutes ago, Fire Walk with KP said:

It plays better in TB. Stop being naughty

I could maybe see how it would make it easier for a boss fight, but even then... Makes everything so slow, I was actually mashing my space bar and was skipping turns...

Made me remember why I disliked divinity.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Sarex

[Gromnir]

19 minutes ago, Sarex said:

I could maybe see how it would make it easier for a boss fight, but even then... Makes everything so slow, I was actually mashing my space bar and was skipping turns...

Made me remember why I disliked divinity.

is at least a couple ways to speed up tb. is a slider for increasing animation speed. also, if you hit space while non party combatants is engaged in their action, they move at a yakety sax pace.

btw, this encounter is best done as early as possible in act v 'cause assuming you did a dialogue correct in act i and you complete the act v encounter "right," it provides a crusade decree capable o' adding an additional master of maneuver level to all your generals.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[majestic]

3 hours ago, Fire Walk with KP said:

Off hand I'd say that you want to maximize caster level to get 10th level spells, so if you want to go outside Sorcerer a prc that gives caster level would be best. I think there is an argument for Loremaster, but just play around and see what works.

Loremaster is making a really strong case. The extra feats and access to other classes' spellbooks pretty much outweigh not having access to capstone blood line abilities. Nothing else really qualifies either, I mean you could take Hellknight Signifier levels, but why would anyone do that?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

39 minutes ago, majestic said:

Loremaster is making a really strong case. The extra feats and access to other classes' spellbooks pretty much outweigh not having access to capstone blood line abilities. Nothing else really qualifies either, I mean you could take Hellknight Signifier levels, but why would anyone do that?

There's a handful of combos where the capstone is worth it, such as the (mod fixed) Arcane bloodline that let's you use metamagic without increasing the casting time but in general.....a lot of that stuff isn't as good as the Loremaster's ability to expand your spellbook. Probably the best prc for a pure caster that doesn't sacrifice caster level.

Unless you're looking to roleplay a fascist wizard, the Signifier isn't a very good choice. I guess that's a reason, someone has to play as an Aeon > Devil.

1 hour ago, Sarex said:

I could maybe see how it would make it easier for a boss fight, but even then... Makes everything so slow, I was actually mashing my space bar and was skipping turns...

Made me remember why I disliked divinity.

Slow is good with a caster heavy party.

[Sarex]

1 hour ago, Gromnir said:

is at least a couple ways to speed up tb. is a slider for increasing animation speed. also, if you hit space while non party combatants is engaged in their action, they move at a yakety sax pace.

btw, this encounter is best done as early as possible in act v 'cause assuming you did a dialogue correct in act i and you complete the act v encounter "right," it provides a crusade decree capable o' adding an additional master of maneuver level to all your generals.

HA! Good Fun!

Accidentally did all of that. Just started to chip away at act 5.

53 minutes ago, Fire Walk with KP said:

Slow is good with a caster heavy party.

Ah, well my caster is pretty much a swarm killer/skill bot. Well when the enemy clumps up I really like to do a weird spell, that is so satisfying.

[ShadySands]

Does Loremaster also get access to Trickster feats?

PS I always go full (spontaneous) caster so I haven't tried it

Edited February 23, 2023 by ShadySands

[Sarex]

Question. My Paladin shifted to neutral good but can still cast smite and judgment. Did they remove the alignment requirement or is toy box preventing it by default?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

23 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

Does Loremaster also get access to Trickster feats?

I don't believe so.

6 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Question. My Paladin shifted to neutral good but can still cast smite and judgment. Did they remove the alignment requirement or is toy box preventing it by default?

There is an option to let you use class abilities regardless of alignment. It works with Druid spells so that may be what you're using.

[Sarex]

5 minutes ago, Fire Walk with KP said:

There is an option to let you use class abilities regardless of alignment. It works with Druid spells so that may be what you're using.

I do not think I have it on. I haven't changed anything from default. Except achievements with mods.

[majestic]

33 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

Does Loremaster also get access to Trickster feats?

PS I always go full (spontaneous) caster so I haven't tried it

It used to. It also used to not work with the spell access for other spellbooks, so you win some, you lose some. Can still get you feats you don't qualify for, which makes it more or less a required a single class dip for any ray-focused blaster for Improved Critical: Ray.

Edited February 23, 2023 by majestic

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

55 minutes ago, Sarex said:

I do not think I have it on. I haven't changed anything from default. Except achievements with mods.

Then I don't know man, maybe they changed it after people kept complaining you couldn't keep being Lawful Good unless you periodically picked the "[Lawful] You broke the law. Die!" dialogue choices.

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, Sarex said:

Question. My Paladin shifted to neutral good but can still cast smite and judgment. Did they remove the alignment requirement or is toy box preventing it by default?

what you experienced is normal, but is likely not normal in the way you experienced.

confused?

since release, IF you shift alignment because o' mythics, then you do not lose current class ability powhaz and abilities o' alignment restricted classes. however, you would not be able to level up further in those classes. long time ago we mentioned on this board how a few builds taking monk or paladin level dips before eventual becoming azata were possible. as long as you chose those paladin or monk class levels before your third mythic level, then shifting to azata would result in a forced shift to neutral good and you would keep the monk and paladin abilities already acquired, but you would no longer be able to gain additional monk or paladin levels.

however, ordinary alignment shifts not caused by a mythic path selection were s'posed punishing you as designed, with loss o' alignment restricted class abilities, but am admitting we never tested this and have seen no comment regarding the issue since late 2021.

am suspecting with all the mythic alignment  bugs and fails, something got busted along the way and chances are all alignment shifts is treated as if they were mythic shifts.

if you are not yet level 20, chances are you need atone before your final level-up if you wanna stay paladin... though is a good excuse to take a final demonslayer level as the paladin cap stone ain't worth the effort.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Gromnir

[Gorth]

In  the category of missing obvious stuff, it was only at the beginning of my second play through I noticed the tooltips for council decisions shows the game mechanic results of the choice. Sadly only after settling in at Drezen. No idea how I ended up with convicts as my basic foot soldiers, I must have listed too much to one of the Tieflings early on

[Gromnir]

31 minutes ago, Gorth said:

In  the category of missing obvious stuff, it was only at the beginning of my second play through I noticed the tooltips for council decisions shows the game mechanic results of the choice. Sadly only after settling in at Drezen. No idea how I ended up with convicts as my basic foot soldiers, I must have listed too much to one of the Tieflings early on

wenduag is responsible for the military council convicts and bandits recommendation... witches and raiders later.  am not a fan o' the spider mutant with the inexplicable accent, so those units is rare even an option for us.

as for overlooked, gonna admit we didn't have any meaningful notion as to what were the point o' combat morale the first time we completed wotr. the combat morale scores for individual units were hidden until relative recent so boosting it effective were also a bit o' a shot in the dark. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

[Gorth]

I figured Wenduag would be the most likely to still share a bed with me if I went Fullskeletal Alchemist (anime pun)...

(I'll skip all the bad boner jokes)

And to be honest, I am curious about what she's about as a character because I went with Lann in my first game.

All you got to see of her then (when going with Lann) is

Spoiler

her groveling and begging, calling you master until you kill her

I wonder if there was more possibilities with actually having her in your party than that.

[ShadySands]

Spoilery but you can 

Spoiler

keep Wendaug if you go with Lann first by sending her away after you beat her in the cave in Neathholm. You still don't get much interaction with her and can't get a good ending for her because you can't do her quest but you can keep her and the same goes for Lann if you pick Wendaug first.

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

8 minutes ago, Gorth said:

I figured Wenduag would be the most likely to still share a bed with me if I went Fullskeletal Alchemist (anime pun)...

(I'll skip all the bad boner jokes)

And to be honest, I am curious about what she's about as a character because I went with Lann in my first game.

All you got to see of her then (when going with Lann) is

  Reveal hidden contents

her groveling and begging, calling you master until you kill her

I wonder if there was more possibilities with actually having her in your party than that.

Wenduag is the perfect romance for a Lich.

Beeg boney spoilers ahoy.

While much of reddit and a particular artist likes Wenduag’s redemption path, to me it doesn't make much sense. She's a cannibal who led you into a trap thinking it'd kill you, her becoming not evil because you hit it a couple of times while balancing being nice and a daddy dom is just not very good. I prefer the vile conniving Wenduag as someone I'd be suspicious of but accept because she's strong and brutal.

Anyways, as a Lich your bone dad wants you to kill your sex partner. Wenduag is all about doing whatever it takes for power from subjecting herself to humiliation to betraying anyone and everyone. So for her to be put in the position of sacrifice is very fitting.

And you can kill Daeran in his quest so the swarm of ghosts gives you Charisma to AC (as deflection), so no romance there.

[Humanoid]

On 2/24/2023 at 5:52 AM, Fire Walk with KP said:

It plays better in TB. Stop being naughty

It would, up until the point I found out the party AI doesn't work in turn-based mode. Massively disappointing for me since I really can't be bothered controlling a party of six manually, but nor would I ever put up with RTwP again, so I'm at an impasse now. Even four is a stretch for me, so I'm wondering how playing a small party of two, three at a push would work at lower difficulties.

[Sarex]

21 minutes ago, Humanoid said:

It would, up until the point I found out the party AI doesn't work in turn-based mode. Massively disappointing for me since I really can't be bothered controlling a party of six manually, but nor would I ever put up with RTwP again, so I'm at an impasse now. Even four is a stretch for me, so I'm wondering how playing a small party of two, three at a push would work at lower difficulties.

It will get easier as you level, on any difficulty. You can start out with more companions and remove them as you level.

[Humanoid]

11 minutes ago, Sarex said:

It will get easier as you level, on any difficulty.

That's encouraging. I remember trying to get through IWD2 some two decades ago with a party of two, but having to yield and add two more characters midway through.