Ukraine Conflict

[Lexx]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

But why dont you create your  own thread on Kosovo, Iraq, Syria, Libya and the Palestinian vs Israeli conflict? There is no reason you cant. Then you guys can lament and rage on the hypocrisy of the West in a dedicated thread?

Im sure it will be well supported?

Yup, that's what I meant in the past. There is no reason to throw all that stuff into the ukraine thread, thus attempting to devalue its issues. It can pretty well be its own thread, or the general politic thread if it's recent events. I'm sure nobody around here, from the evil west, would protest or cry about it. Hell, we'd probably chime in with how terrible event x is or was.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Lexx

[xzar_monty]

Disease has probably been a scourge of all armies throughout history, but Russia does things its own way in this, too.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1596819562443726848.html

or

 

[BruceVC]

2 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

Disease has probably been a scourge of all armies throughout history, but Russia does things its own way in this, too.

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1596819562443726848.html

or

 

Geez, imagine being a new conscripted recruit. What an honor fighting for the " glory of the Motherland "

[Mamoulian War]

@xzar_monty another spontaneous combustion in Siberia

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/11/27/7378172/

[xzar_monty]

Wow! Astonishing.

 @Mamoulian War and here's some intelligent discussion from Russia. This is not shocking anymore, even if it perhaps should be.

 

[BruceVC]

3 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

Wow! Astonishing.

 @Mamoulian War and here's some intelligent discussion from Russia. This is not shocking anymore, even if it perhaps should be.

 

And this is the  official Russian media  that some people claim " is the same as the Western media " around spin and propaganda 

[xzar_monty]

It's interesting and not pleasant at all to see(*) new (for me) evidence of Putin's sustained efforts to create a fantasy Russian empire that is in denial of everything that it doesn't enjoy about itself. For instance, already back in 2014, Putin signed a law that criminalizes "spreading false information about the activity of the USSR during the years of World War Two". This is ominous in itself, but it becomes much more ominous once you realize what constitutes false information. For instance, Russia officially denies the mass rapes conducted by the Red Army, which means that any historians who are interested in even studying the subject face really serious trouble. [And yes, I know about Japan. I know about the Allied in Kanagawa in 1945. Etc.]

 

(*) Has to do with the documentation concerning my current work project.

Edited November 29, 2022 by xzar_monty

[BruceVC]

20 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

It's interesting and not pleasant at all to see(*) new (for me) evidence of Putin's sustained efforts to create a fantasy Russian empire that is in denial of everything that it doesn't enjoy about itself. For instance, already back in 2014, Putin signed a law that criminalizes "spreading false information about the activity of the USSR during the years of World War Two". This is ominous in itself, but it becomes much more ominous once you realize what constitutes false information. For instance, Russia officially denies the mass rapes conducted by the Red Army, which means that any historians who are interested in even studying the subject face really serious trouble. [And yes, I know about Japan. I know about the Allies in Kanagawa in 1945. Etc.]

 

(*) Has to do with the documentation concerning my current work project.

Thats interesting, what is your current work project? So this 2014  Putin law probably bans information about the Katyn killings of Polish citizens?

https://www.historiamag.com/cover-up-of-katyn-massacre/

 

[xzar_monty]

Has to do with the life's work of the Congolese doctor and Nobel laureate Denis Mukwege and his efforts against sexual violence. Putin's Russia gets a mention as a place that has recently got much worse in this regard.

[Malcador]

1 hour ago, xzar_monty said:

Wow! Astonishing.

 @Mamoulian War and here's some intelligent discussion from Russia. This is not shocking anymore, even if it perhaps should be.

 

Think people read too much into these shows. Good propaganda at least

[Malcador]

5 hours ago, Lexx said:

Yup, that's what I meant in the past. There is no reason to throw all that stuff into the ukraine thread, thus attempting to devalue its issues. It can pretty well be its own thread, or the general politic thread if it's recent events. I'm sure nobody around here, from the evil west, would protest or cry about it. Hell, we'd probably chime in with how terrible event x is or was.

Haha, really, devaluing the issues here? It's not as if Zora's comments are out of nowhere. 

[BruceVC]

3 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Haha, really, devaluing the issues here? It's not as if Zora's comments are out of nowhere. 

Thats why you guys should create your own thread, you can discuss lots of issues outside of Ukraine that clearly are important to you? Its a win win for everyone 

[Lexx]

56 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Haha, really, devaluing the issues here? It's not as if Zora's comments are out of nowhere. 

Yes, if you start your response with a "what about..."-post you make the Ukraine thing weight less. That's why whataboutism is bad. I know, I know, "whataboutism has a different definition, it's not what I have done" bla bla [insert other excuses about semantics and stuff].

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Lexx

[Malcador]

29 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Yes, if you start your response with a "what about..."-post you make the Ukraine thing weight less. That's why whataboutism is bad. I know, I know, "whataboutism has a different definition, it's not what I have done" bla bla [insert other excuses about semantics and stuff].

 

Perhaps on a proportionate stage to a war, but this place is irrelevant and not sure why we need slavish obedience to threads being on-topic.  Are random fires in Russia relatad to Ukraine's issues ?

[Lexx]

I don't know, maybe?

Since it (probably?) affects russias economy and military, it might affect the war in ukraine, I guess. Not sure how this is related to the what-about arguments, though.

My remarks were not about threads being off-topic, by the way. I really don't care about that at all. On every second issue, Z countered with something bad the west has done, that's all that was driving me, nothing else.

"Russia shelled a hospital" - "oh, but the west"

"Russia shelled a kindergarden" - "oh, but THE WEST"

"Russia is shelling the energy grid" - "OH, BUT THE WEST!"

Get what I mean? Yes, the west can suck, we know about that. There is no reason to post that after every ukraine war story. If you want to talk about the west so much, put it in another thread or whatever, nobody will be mad, as repeatedly said multiple times now.

That said, I'm not going to comment on this again. It's been too annoying already. Do what you must.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Lexx

[Malcador]

20 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Since it (probably?) affects russias economy and military, it might affect the war in ukraine, I guess. Not sure how this is related to the what-about arguments, though.

Well, you and Bruce were going on out about needing to put things in another thread.  Bruce also posting about Griner was also okay here, although I guess something for him to whine about BLM for.  

As for people being snarky about things like the "rule based international order", no need to get all that bothered about it, doesn't change anything - Ukraine will keep getting its free weapons, support regardless.

[BruceVC]

1 minute ago, Malcador said:

Well, you and Bruce were going on out about needing to put things in another thread.  Bruce also posting about Griner was also okay here, although I guess something for him to whine about BLM for.  

As for people being snarky about things like the "rule based international order", no need to get all that bothered about it, doesn't change anything - Ukraine will keep getting its free weapons, support regardless.

Yes, if its related to Russia, Putin's war  and  the reason for the invasion then its relevant. Griner was arrested in Russia and the sentence was severe due to her being American. As I explained its political and about the support that the US is giving Ukraine. Which is why I didnt post it in the political thread which I normally would have 

[Lexx]

9 minutes ago, Malcador said:

As for people being snarky about things like the "rule based international order", no need to get all that bothered about it, doesn't change anything - Ukraine will keep getting its free weapons, support regardless.

Don't think those weapons are free, though. America / Europe is pretty much chaining Ukraine to them now with debt. It will take a long time (or never) to get away from that at this point I guess. Personally I still think this is primarily about the natural resources in the south, which is why Crimea and co. is so important to the Ukraine. If they can't get that, and the west can't get access to the gas and oil... it's all going to come to an end at some point, and nobody will really care about russia (at least america won't).

Edited November 28, 2022 by Lexx

[BruceVC]

24 minutes ago, Malcador said:

Well, you and Bruce were going on out about needing to put things in another thread.  Bruce also posting about Griner was also okay here, although I guess something for him to whine about BLM for.  

As for people being snarky about things like the "rule based international order", no need to get all that bothered about it, doesn't change anything - Ukraine will keep getting its free weapons, support regardless.

Whats international law got to do with aid for Ukraine from Western countries? Thats the first time I have heard that one 

[Malcador]

22 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Don't think those weapons are free, though. America / Europe is pretty much chaining Ukraine to them now with debt. It will take a long time (or never) to get away from that at this point I guess. Personally I still think this is primarily about the natural resources in the south, which is why Crimea and co. is so important to the Ukraine. If they can't get that, and the west can't get access to the gas and oil... it's all going to come to an end at some point, and nobody will really care about russia (at least america won't).

Well "free" as in sale, at least.

24 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Yes, if its related to Russia, Putin's war  and  the reason for the invasion then its relevant. Griner was arrested in Russia and the sentence was severe due to her being American. As I explained its political and about the support that the US is giving Ukraine. Which is why I didnt post it in the political thread which I normally would have 

Griner's arrest is related to the war and reason for invasion ? Tangentially to the former, not even sure how for the latter. 

4 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Whats international law got to do with aid for Ukraine from Western countries? Thats the first time I have heard that one 

Not solely restricted to aid, but the comments on the war in general, just chose that as one off example of people snarking at the West. The best comment still is by the UK UN Ambassador, if I recall, saying how dare a P5 nation attack and invade a smaller one with a totally straight face.

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Malcador

[Malcador]

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/100-mile-strike-weapon-weighed-ukraine-arms-makers-wrestle-with-demand-sources-2022-11-28/

"The Boeing plan requires a price discovery waiver, exempting the contractor from an in-depth review that ensures the Pentagon is getting the best deal possible. "

In crisis, there is opportunity

[BruceVC]

13 minutes ago, Malcador said:

 

Griner's arrest is related to the war and reason for invasion ? Tangentially to the former, not even sure how for the latter. 

 

 

Her arrest is obviously not related to the invasion of Ukraine but its directly related to her being an American citizen and  sports celebrity  and Putins rage towards the West and particularly the US for the support of Ukraine. She would never have got that sentence if she was not a US citizen. This has been extensively discussed on CNN 

[Mamoulian War]

A little bit more detail on what the hell that new Boeing/Saab gadget is.

 

[Mamoulian War]

Interesting story. According to Russian investigation, A man responsible for mobilization commits suicide at his supervisor office shooting himself with 4 different weapons not aiming at vital parts of his body. And his wife writes to Putin, that he should investigate his dead, as he surely wanted to show the shortcommings of mobilization by performing self-execution… Not a single thought had been made, that this maybe could have been something different, than a successful suicide attempt

 

https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/11/28/7378346/

[majestic]

Definitions taken from Merriam-Webster. Yes, this post does indeed pertain to the discussion at hand. In which way I'll leave to the reader to figure out.

This one is for @BruceVC, but it is problematic because it only defines the less revelant section (1) of the above definition.