Berserk self damage scaling

[Porkchopsandwiches247]

So trying to be a smart guy, I was thinking of making a Berserker/Skald Howler, and saw that the self damage from Berserk is 2 every 3 seconds…annoying, but this is the same amount healed by the Chanter phrase Soft Winds of Death. So perfect, thats some synergy right there.

A few levels later however, I see…8.2 raw damage every 3 seconds, while Soft Winds is only healing 3.1 per 3 seconds with my same stats…what is this math!?

I know it also scales with Barbarian Power Level, I just had no idea it was this much. Am I correct in assuming that each Barbarian power level equals 1 extra flat damage before any modifiers? This is what the math seems to indicate…(2+4=6, 6*1.36=8.16)

Is this a unique calculation just for this ability? Its way worse than I had anticipated, and I dont recall any other ability scaling in such a way off the top of my head.

[dgray62]

Berserker self-damage scales with PL (+5% for each PL I believe), including not only the natural PLs you gain from leveling up but also additional PLs gained from items, food or intellect inspirations. It is also boosted +3% for each point of STR above 10. It can become quite substantial later in the game. You can mitigate it with items that give you general damage reduction (like the Death's Maw helm) or raw damage reduction (the ring Voidward), and also by boosting your healing over time with items or spells. Weapons that drain health are great too, as is, for a howler, the Old Siec chant and the Savage Defiance ability. The latter can really help a lot, and can be sustained indefinitely with a source of brilliant, such as a cipher companion. You can also make yourself brilliant if you wear the Least Unstable Coil belt and wield Sasha's Singing Scimitar, upgraded to allow you allow you to empower one ability per encounter. If you empower the Her Revenge or Her Tears invocations and hit a group of foes you should get all six tier 3 inspirations, including brilliant and robust. You can extend them by having a priest companion cast Salvation of Time on you.

Edited February 2, 2022 by dgray62
Typo correction

[thelee]

8 minutes ago, dgray62 said:

Berserker self-damage scales with PL (+5% for each PL I believe),

i think OP's point is that most everything that we could say about berserker self-damage scaling would also influence soft, soft winds chant equivalently. the fact that the self-damage is way more than soft,soft winds is a big tell.

 

55 minutes ago, Porkchopsandwiches247 said:

I know it also scales with Barbarian Power Level, I just had no idea it was this much. Am I correct in assuming that each Barbarian power level equals 1 extra flat damage before any modifiers? This is what the math seems to indicate…(2+4=6, 6*1.36=8.16)

i've never played a berserker but i've been told that the self-damage can become substantial (a few people msged me on my gamefaqs guide to tell me that self-damage was a bigger deal than the confusion). it's possible it has custom scaling rules, and would explain why i've been told that. would love someone to confirm (am unable to test right now).

some examples of other non-standard power-level scaling: forbidden fist self-damage, psion focus generation, barbarian carnage, etc. the first two definitely use whole numbers per PL (as opposed to percentage) so it's not unprecedented. edit: oops, forbidden fist self-damage scales by ability tier, which is even more nonstandard. sighh...

Edited February 2, 2022 by thelee

[Boeroer]

Berserker self dmg numbers don't scale like normal damaging or healing abilities do (+5% base per PL). Instead it gains +2 raw base dmg per Power Level iirc.

Frenzy starts at PL1 - so at PL7 (for example a multiclass Berserker/Skald at lvl 20) it gained 6 Power Levels: 2*(7-1) = 12 extra damage. It starts with 2, so 12+2 = 14 base damage. A single class Barb would even go up to PL9 and thus receive even more raw dmg.

This base dmg is used to calculate the final damage - which includes universal dmg bonuses like those from Might (3% per point over 10), Infamous Captain (5%), Harley pet (10% - it is supposed to only work for ranged attacks but actually works for all sources of dmg), Baubles of the Fin (3%) and so on.

Because of that the dmg can scale a lot higher than that of healing abilites that start with the same base but only get +5% per PL.   

Edited February 2, 2022 by Boeroer

[dgray62]

I think you both are right; it must scale differently that +5% per PL. It really becomes very substantial later in the game. I don't know offhand how high it can get, but I seem to recall it can easily reach 30 or so per 3 seconds later in the game. But it can be mitigated. One of the most successful mitigation strategies that I have tried is Boeroer's brute (berserker/devoted) build wielding Amra. Here you heal with one of the healing pets, which procs constantly due to all of the skeletons you destroy.

[Elric Galad]

11 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Berserker self dmg numbers don't scale like normal damaging or healing abilities do (+5% base per PL). Instead it gains +2 raw base dmg per Power Level iirc.

Frenzy starts at PL1 - so at PL7 (for example a multiclass Berserker/Skald at lvl 20) it gained 6 Power Levels: 2*(7-1) = 12 extra damage. It starts with 2, so 12+2 = 14 base damage. A single class Barb would even go up to PL9 and thus receive even more raw dmg.

This base dmg is used to calculate the final damage - which includes universal dmg bonuses like those from Might (3% per point over 10), Infamous Captain (5%), Harley pet (10% - it is supposed to only work for ranged attacks but actually works for all sources of dmg), Baubles of the Fin (3%) and so on.

Because of that the dmg can scale a lot higher than that of healing abilites that start with the same base but only get +5% per PL.   

I haven't re-checked in game, but it could be both.

(2 + 2/PL) and 5% multiplicative scaling.

[Boeroer]

By the way: other self dmg like Sacred Immolation (Paladin) and Deletrious Alacrity of Motion (Wizard) scale normally with +5% per PL.

I guess they altered the Berserker's Frenzy later because it was either too punishing in the early game with a higher starting base - or too weak in the late game with the starting base of 2 - with the normal PL scaling.

[Boeroer]

3 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I haven't re-checked in game, but it could be both.

(2 + 2/PL) and 5% multiplicative scaling.

I checked just now in the game and it's a flat +2 per PL, no percentages involved. Prestige also adds +2 base dmg as expected. So do other PL bonuses like the +1 from Stone of Power.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Boeroer

[Porkchopsandwiches247]

28 minutes ago, thelee said:

i think OP's point is that most everything that we could say about berserker self-damage scaling would also influence soft, soft winds chant equivalently. the fact that the self-damage is way more than soft,soft winds is a big tell.

 

i've never played a berserker but i've been told that the self-damage can become substantial (a few people msged me on my gamefaqs guide to tell me that self-damage was a bigger deal than the confusion). it's possible it has custom scaling rules, and would explain why i've been told that. would love someone to confirm (am unable to test right now).

some examples of other non-standard power-level scaling: forbidden fist self-damage, psion focus generation, barbarian carnage, etc. the first two definitely use whole numbers per PL (as opposed to percentage) so it's not unprecedented. edit: oops, forbidden fist self-damage scales by ability tier, which is even more nonstandard. sighh...

Yes that is the case, thank you for interpreting me correctly.

Its true that its not exclusive in terms of unique scaling, but its pretty rate, definitely wasn’t expecting it.

11 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Berserker self dmg numbers don't scale like normal damaging or healing abilities do (+5% base per PL). Instead it gains +2 raw base dmg per Power Level iirc.

Frenzy starts at PL1 - so at PL7 (for example a multiclass Berserker/Skald at lvl 20) it gained 6 Power Levels: 2*(7-1) = 12 extra damage. It starts with 2, so 12+2 = 14 base damage. A single class Barb would even go up to PL9 and thus receive even more raw dmg.

This base dmg is used to calculate the final damage - which includes universal dmg bonuses like those from Might (3% per point over 10), Infamous Captain (5%), Harley pet (10% - it is supposed to only work for ranged attacks but actually works for all sources of dmg), Baubles of the Fin (3%) and so on.

Because of that the dmg can scale a lot higher than that of healing abilites that start with the same base but only get +5% per PL.   

From what I’m seeing that seems to be the case. My Howler was at +2 Barbarian PL, and the tooltip was telling me Barbarian level was adding 4 total damage. Math was checking out.

Even running the healing chant alongside Soft Winds wasnt enough to mitigate it, and its only going to get way worse as your level goes up.

I know there are some builds and equipment that can work around it, but its a much more costly downside than I was anticipating lol

[Porkchopsandwiches247]

11 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

I haven't re-checked in game, but it could be both.

(2 + 2/PL) and 5% multiplicative scaling.

Unless the tooltip wasnt showing it (very possible), I dont think there was any multiplicative scaling based on PL

[Helz]

On the bright side, you can't see your hitpoints anyway, so its like they're not draining away. This helps explain why my berserker brute was KO'd ~50 times and left with severe CTE.

[NotDumbEnough]

I believe the Forbidden Fist degen scales in a similar fashion, but I can't remember anything else.

[thelee]

*slaps forehead* a really obvious non-standard scaler is rogue sneak attack damage. numerically it's the same (+5%) but it's an additive increase, not a multiplicative increase, and is definitely different from how most other abilities scale.

 

IMO for any hypothetical pillars 3, they need to make sure "how this ability benefits from PL scaling" is also included in the auto-generated tooltip.

[Elric Galad]

7 hours ago, thelee said:

*slaps forehead* a really obvious non-standard scaler is rogue sneak attack damage. numerically it's the same (+5%) but it's an additive increase, not a multiplicative increase, and is definitely different from how most other abilities scale.

 

IMO for any hypothetical pillars 3, they need to make sure "how this ability benefits from PL scaling" is also included in the auto-generated tooltip.

Don't get me started on weird scaling rules 

*cries in non-scaling passive from items, double scaling active abilities from weapon, "oh I forgot about PEN" Arcane Archers, "my summons don't scale PEN unless they're phantom or dancing swords"...

 

Obsidian approach can be summarized this way :

- Let's make super clean scaling rules so every ability can keep up, not like of these old imbalanced games

- Now let's implement them in a non-systematic way, youhou !

- And lets' add exceptions ! (at least these are sometimes justified)

Edited February 3, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Every ability should just say how it scales.

I mean it would be great if everything scaled the same way - but I can see how there might be abilites and situations where that's not a good fit and limits the design of abilities too much.
So why not just include stuff like that in descriptions/tooltips etc.? 

Same as: why is there no entry regarding Power Level on the character sheet?

[Elric Galad]

7 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

Every ability should just say how it scales.

I mean it would be great if everything scaled the same way - but I can see how there might be abilites and situations where that's not a good fit and limits the design of abilities too much.
So why not just include stuff like that in descriptions/tooltips etc.? 

Same as: why is there no entry regarding Power Level on the character sheet?

And there's also "untyped" power level used for a couple of things, including all active abilities from items  

[crdvis16]

Maybe a good mod could implement all this?  Sounds like a lot of work though.