Anime and Manga - ゴゴゴゴ

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

8 hours ago, Lexx said:

So you're saying I should actually watch Ergo Proxy?

Tried first episode once, but it felt so ehh.

I really liked it. It starts out as sort of cyberpunk/post-apoc but gets more surreal as it goes on.

6 hours ago, Gorth said:

I can't really separate events out into their episodes, but the story as I get it so far has two protagonists... Vincent the immigrant and Re-I, the granddaughter of the "administrator". They live in a city, which later turns out to be a dome existing in a wasteland, sustaining a kind of utopia/dystopia kind of society, complete with constant messages bombarding the "model citizens" with how they should behave and act like good little consumers. AI "people" are everywhere and serves many purposes. It immediately made me think of Bladerunner. A virus, called "cogito", is spreading amongst the AI's (called "autoreives") and causes havoc. On top of that, the bureau of security as well as Re-I's grandfather have gotten their hands dirty with some unsavoury research just referred to as "Proxy". The results of which escapes a lab/holding facility and goes on a killing spree. Vincent manages to escape from the city using a vent, that cogito infected AI's has been using to escape the city and ends up with a small group of people living outside the dome. One of them wants to be more than a "dome parasite" some day (being people who lives off the sewage and waste of the dome). That's where I got to. Leaving out a fair number of details and characters.

 

Edit: Looks like I got the name of the female lead wrong... the last letter is not an 'I' but a lower case 'L', i.e. 'l' (Re-l).

This is a minor spoiler, but her name is pronounced "Real" and is stylized that way based off removing the diagonal lines in an uppercase A.

[majestic]

Lady Asuka 16: Court intrigues and a pair of scammers. Looks like high society has not changed in 250 years. Know what else has not? This is still riveting beyond ken.  

[majestic]

  

Now for the promised reply to other the Escaflowne post. Still feel like a stirred up hornet's nest is in my head, but at least it is no longer on the verge of exploding.

On 4/8/2022 at 9:53 AM, Bartimaeus said:

"Okay, we need to have the two sisters, who have only ever had each other to rely upon their entire lives, have a sad conversation about how no-one else will ever love the either of them because of what they are, while also intercutting with flashbacks to when their parents were horrifically murdered when they were small children. We don't have enough time to animate all it from scratch, so let's just cleverly and not jarringly at all re-use some of the animation we made of them from the incestuous ecchi scene they were going to have back when this was a shonen and before we decided they were going to be actual characters. Sound good to everyone? Great!"

The realities of limited ressources. Could have just off-screened some dialogue in and retooled the scene and left the episode with 10 seconds less runtime, but hey, how knows how the production pipeline looked like. The scene itself was fairly harmless anyway - at least in comparison to some others I've seen not so long ago *cough* - it just felt a lot worse because it's probably the most jarring and immersion breaking moment in the anime.

Eleventh Hour weapons of mass destructions aisde, of course.

On 4/8/2022 at 9:53 AM, Bartimaeus said:

What's funny is that I still think there are certain things about it that should annoy or dissatisfy me, that definitely would with other shows...but for some reason, they don't here.

Like flying fortresses, a shounen deuteragonist, the show steadily but ever increasingly losing touch with being grounded near the end? Yeah, there's a number of things that would bother me in a different anime, and some silliness that I'd make overy long complain-posts out of for other series. I caught an episode of Voyager on TV the other day, and while I used to think that Voyager is the least consistend and worst of the old Star Trek shows (prior to Enterprise, at least - not counting all the nuTrek), the episode was about some technobabble and Voyager punching a hole into a quantum singularity's event horizon.

A hole. In an event horizon. I facepalmed and ignored it. If this happened in Discovery, I'd be here writing an essay about missing science advisors. However, the mainstay of the episode was character development for B'elanna, Chakotay and Janeway and some fun Robert Picardo stuff, so while it was annoying, it wasn't killing my interest in the episode, nor was it egregious enough to warrant massive complaints.

In the end, it really is like Jay said when they watched Skyfall - when you're entertained enough and the other parts are good enough then you just won't be as bothered by plot holes, inconsistencies and stupid things. I disagree with them on Skyfall because that film was so bad I haven't even bothered with the newer ones, but I can agree with the point. Guess what I mean is, when you're a good show, you've earned the right to occassional annoyances or dissatisfying results.

On 4/8/2022 at 9:53 AM, Bartimaeus said:

When you're a special exception, you just are, even if the reasons aren't perfectly understood, . Though I can definitely see the show not being for everyone, and I think that's okay - focusing too much on characters and their thoughts and feelings instead of the "epic" world-building and plot and action and really just all the stuff that I normally don't care that much about unless I already like the characters... Honestly, it makes perfect sense that if we really like it, a lot of other people wouldn't - isn't that usually the case?

I've thought about this. I think that's the same reason why the first two seasons of Nanoha were so well received vs. StrikerS, while I would consider StrikerS to be the apex of the series - the complaints by watchers about it mirror those of The Vision of Escaflowne, like trying to cram a storyline barely enough for 13 episodes into a 26 episode anime, and it hence feeling slow. I don't entirely get it, because neither The Vision of Escaflowne nor StrikerS ever felt slow for me, but then again, neither did Sailor Moon (outside of SuperS), and oh boy do people complain about the filler and the storyline not advancing.

These people probably have never seen a truly slow show in their life - like the first season of the reimagined Battlestar Galactica where, in terms of plot, literally nothing happened for almost the entire first season and we're not seeing anything but character driven events unfold with people coming to terms what it means to be refugees on a (space) convoy with nothing left. When plot elements begin to happen they ironically lay the groundwork for the failure that the series' last one and a half seasons ended up being.

Yeah, well, of course, I can see someone being bored withe The Vision of Escaflowne if they want to keep things moving without much character interactions or don't really care for motivations and moving pieces into place before paying them off, even though there are some instances where I felt the payoff came too quickly, like with Marlene having secretly studied medecine, revealed just in time for her to save Allen. However, with the pacing of the show as it is, I'd almost be inclined to diagnose someone who thinks it is too slow paced with shounen attention deficit syndrome (SADS).

On 4/8/2022 at 9:53 AM, Bartimaeus said:

I'll also forgive a few things not being set up quite as well as they should've been - poor Allen and his family kind of got the short end of the stick all throughout the show in that regard, but ultimately, it was in favor of Hitomi, Van, and Folken, all of who were simply more important, so I can't really fault them too badly given that they lost 13 episodes' worth of runtime.

Allen's part, particularily that flashback episode with an entirely new character that just happened to fly by is something that should have annoyed me, but didn't. Between reading of the troubled production and the rest of the show being as good as it is, well, there's plenty that can be more readily forgiven than with other shows. Allens arc also feels somewhat unfinished. It isn't, not really, because he resolves his issues, but there still could be something, like, more. He feels a little like Makoto in Sailor Stars.

On 4/8/2022 at 9:53 AM, Bartimaeus said:

It is funny that the show being tediously slow seems to be a common complaint - if your main point of interest is the plot, I can see that being an issue, because the plot generally does move pretty slowly outside of a few occasions, but it is certainly not what I care most about. The reason why something like this or Evangelion works at all for me is because there was such a heavy and meaningful focus on the characters that makes the plot and world worth caring about - without the former, I won't stick around for the latter. It seems like a lot of other people are wired to be the other way around, .

Has anyone ever complained about Evangelion being tediously slow? Because I feel like that has roughly the same pace, except it has a little more* action maybe. To be honest, I think these people just notice that the plot is a little slower because they don't have animated fanservice to keep them entertained. NGE might not be the fastest paced show either, and it doesn't even get a semi-rushed conclusion in the same way The Vision of Escaflowne did, but there's enough of Misato's and Asuka's assets to gawk at, I guess. I think SADS might be held off by copious amounts of masturbatory material.

On 4/8/2022 at 9:53 AM, Bartimaeus said:

I can only assume that this comment I read about it was written by HoonDing. I'm gonna have to try an episode of this Twelve Kingdoms just so I can predictably hate it.

An arguably unfinished anime based on an unfinished manga - hard pass, unless you try it and think it's the best thing ever. Otherwise that's a minefield I'm not deliberately stepping into.

*Maybe not more, but longer action sequences, at least. The fights in The Vision of Escaflowne have a certain weighty feel to them and have no lack of tension (in spite of always kind a knowing that everyone of the main characters will pull through by the end), but they're generally pretty short and to the point, unless there's a reason for them to not be.

Edited April 10, 2022 by majestic

[majestic]

Triple post time, because... well, enough time has passed in between.

Lady Asuka, episode 17: Lady Asuka survives an assassination attempt. A couple of episodes ago she picked up a common wench who attacked her mother because she mistook her for the murderer of her mother, the incident with the carriage I mentioned. Ever since Lady Asuka has passed her off as a noble born, distant cousin while they were looking for the perpetrator. That just so happens to be Marie Antoinette's most favored court sycophant. That sounds more interesting than it really was.

Lady Asuka, episode 18:

Okay, so this one is a little difficult to gauge. The first episode after the change of directors focused a whole lot more on character relationships than boring court intrigue and pointless swordfighting scenes. Marie Antoinette's supposed affair, von Fersen, returns to France. The episode also made much better use of music, the scenes were not necessarily framed any better than before but they felt a little less stiff. Not that it should make any difference for the dub, but the voice direction in this episode also felt like it had a little more heart poured into it.

It might also just have been an episode that was simply slightly better than the ones before. Too early to tell, and certainly no reason to get excited or be optimistic, but for the first time watching this I'm not dreading turning on the next episode. If that's all it does going foward, it'll still be a win.

Edited April 10, 2022 by majestic

[Sarex]

5 minutes ago, majestic said:

Triple post time, because... well, enough time has passed in between.

Those are rookie numbers.

Oh and let me give this recommendation again. Give Redline a go for anyone who hasn't watched it. Making a gif for majestic reminded me of it and now I want to rewatch it but it's too late.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Sarex

[Gorth]

Finished episode 10 of Ergo Proxy...

 

Vincent runs into other humans and autoreives (androids) in the wasteland. These are fighting each other, but Vincent gets shelter and some much needed food from the troopers (he had consigned himself to death by starvation before running into them).

He's ostensibly looking for the place of his birth, a dome named Mosk, but runs into two other domes who appears to be in perpetual war (the human troops and autoreives fighting it out). Being incarcerated and then helped to escape, things happens fast and surreal for a while, turns out there are multiple "Proxy's", whatever they are. Seemingly also having some kind of aspect linked to them. Proxy of the Moon, Proxy of this and proxy of that. Turns out Vincent is not who he thought he was. When confronted by some questioning, he can't remember further back than he originates from Mosk, but can't remember what he actually did there. Accused of deliberately erasing his own memory, he eventually realizes he himself is a Proxy. Ergo Proxy, the Proxy of Death. Re-l catches up with him (she seems obsessed with finding out the truth about what's going on, which I suppose make her a good detective) and that's about where I'm at...

Edit: Also a bit more background on one of the antagonists back in the original dome where the story start (the dome's name Romdeau btw). This guy, Raul is a very ambitious man, managing the bureau of security and doing the administrations every bidding while serving his own ambitions along the way. The Proxy that escaped in the first episode was apparently part of a project he was supervising and it originated from another dome, where Romdeau units had seized it forcefully and brought back to their own place for research. Of special interest being not their monstrous shapes or fighting capabilities, but their cells, Amrita cells, which have unique regenerative abilities (like the Mexican Axolotl)

 

 

[ShadySands]

I'm glad you like it so far

[Malcador]

5 hours ago, Sarex said:

Those are rookie numbers.

Oh and let me give this recommendation again. Give Redline a go for anyone who hasn't watched it. Making a gif for majestic reminded me of it and now I want to rewatch it but it's too late.

Second this suggestion. Good mindless fun.

[Bartimaeus]

13 hours ago, Sarex said:

Those are rookie numbers.

Oh and let me give this recommendation again. Give Redline a go for anyone who hasn't watched it. Making a gif for majestic reminded me of it and now I want to rewatch it but it's too late.

 

7 hours ago, Malcador said:

Second this suggestion. Good mindless fun.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news directly in the face of others recommending something, but someone has to be the voice of reason here. It's a very strong anti-recommendation for Redline to at least @majestic due to the film being about as dumb as it looks - if you like fast-paced mindless 2000s action/racing machismo-laden seinen (IIRC, with some barf-worthy fan service to boot), I'm sure it earns high marks, but in what universe would that ever be the case for majestic? My intervention here is almost certainly unnecessary though, because taking even a glance at the film should make him run for the hills, which is what I should've done when someone already made the recommendation in one of these threads a year or two ago.

13 hours ago, majestic said:

Okay, so this one is a little difficult to gauge. The first episode after the change of directors focused a whole lot more on character relationships than boring court intrigue and pointless swordfighting scenes. Marie Antoinette's supposed affair, von Fersen, returns to France. The episode also made much better use of music, the scenes were not necessarily framed any better than before but they felt a little less stiff. Not that it should make any difference for the dub, but the voice direction in this episode also felt like it had a little more heart poured into it.

It might also just have been an episode that was simply slightly better than the ones before. Too early to tell, and certainly no reason to get excited or be optimistic, but for the first time watching this I'm not dreading turning on the next episode. If that's all it does going foward, it'll still be a win.

Classic of classics mode, activate!

I'll get back to the Escaflowne post later.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[Sarex]

34 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

which is what I should've done when someone already made the recommendation in one of these threads a year or two ago.

That was me.

[Bartimaeus]

22 minutes ago, Sarex said:

That was me.

Hey, I wasn't going to name names, . I know this sort of stuff certainly has its audience, but this is majestic we're talking about here - the guy that almost exclusively watches shoujo, hates all things toxic masculine, and pretty much never cares for mindless action? It would genuinely be pretty shocking if he enjoyed Redline or anything like it.

Edited April 11, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[majestic]

1 minute ago, Bartimaeus said:

Hey, I wasn't going to name names, . I know this sort of stuff certainly has its audience, but this is majestic we're talking about here - the guy that almost exclusively watches shoujo, hates all things toxic masculine, and pretty much never cares for mindless action? It would genuinely be pretty shocking if he enjoyed Redline or anything like it.

Doubly so since it is racing action, which is cetainly the surest way to bore me. I still haven't watched any of the Fast and Furious movies. I saw like the first five minutes of Tokyo Drift on TV at some point, after which I decided that changing channels would be preferable to dismantling the TV. Fast cars, racing stunts and blasting hip hop music with hawt racing babes on the street, yeah, very hard pass.

Mindless action can be fun, but it needs the proper setting and aesthetic* for it, and that almost never works for me in animation. Most of the instances where I enjoyed mindless action schlock it was due to something else, not the action. Skeletor's wonderful performance in Masters of the Universe, for instance, or the absolutely ludicrous commitment to stereotypes in Dark Matter. Whether or not fast paced action is to my liking is something I can explain with even less accuracy than why The Vision of Escaflowne was so good for me.

Not that I haven't seen my fair share of action stuff, but really enjoying it is something else. I'm pretty much the only one I know who has watched Avengers: Endgame and was bored through most of it. Yeah... hah, did I ever mention that my friends often drag me to the movies and then ask like: Hey that was great, what did you think? And I'm usually like "it was okay", and every now and then they ask if I even like movies at all?  

*I have a soft spot for 80ies action aesthetic. Mullets, shoulder pads and leather gear at least looks fun.

[Amentep]

Hmm, hadn't heard of Redline really.  Or at least never watched a trailer for it.

*watches trailer*

When will companies learn that "from the studio that brought you ... Ninja Scroll..." isn't the recommendation they think it is? 

There's an interesting design aesthetic going on; not sure anything I see in the trailer really makes me want to rush out and see it though.

4 minutes ago, majestic said:

*I have a soft spot for 80ies action aesthetic. Mullets, shoulder pads and leather gear at least looks fun.

Fist of the North Star? 

[majestic]

6 minutes ago, Amentep said:

Fist of the North Star? 

Was more thinking of (Western) live action films. Haven't watched First of the North Star. For animation, pretty much all I got is MD Geist and MD Geist II, and I watched those when I was a lot younger and a lot more forgiving.  

Edit: Unless Akira counts, but it at least tried no to be mindless. Didn't like the film though.

Edited April 11, 2022 by majestic

[Amentep]

Just now, majestic said:

Was more thinking of (Western) live action films. Haven't watched First of the North Star. For animation, pretty much all I got is MD Geist and MD Geist II, and I watched those when I was a lot younger and a lot more forgiving.  

I was joking really, but FOTNS is basically using the Road Warrior / Mad Max 2 design aesthetic and putting it on burly anime manly-man martial artists.  So lots of leather, shoulder pads and mullets (and chaps and mohawks, cloaks and wild hair).

[Sarex]

12 minutes ago, majestic said:

Doubly so since it is racing action, which is cetainly the surest way to bore me. I still haven't watched any of the Fast and Furious movies. I saw like the first five minutes of Tokyo Drift on TV at some point, after which I decided that changing channels would be preferable to dismantling the TV. Fast cars, racing stunts and blasting hip hop music with hawt racing babes on the street, yeah, very hard pass.

Mindless action can be fun, but it needs the proper setting and aesthetic* for it, and that almost never works for me in animation. Most of the instances where I enjoyed mindless action schlock it was due to something else, not the action. Skeletor's wonderful performance in Masters of the Universe, for instance, or the absolutely ludicrous commitment to stereotypes in Dark Matter. Whether or not fast paced action is to my liking is something I can explain with even less accuracy than why The Vision of Escaflowne was so good for me.

Not that I haven't seen my fair share of action stuff, but really enjoying it is something else. I'm pretty much the only one I know who has watched Avengers: Endgame and was bored through most of it. Yeah... hah, did I ever mention that my friends often drag me to the movies and then ask like: Hey that was great, what did you think? And I'm usually like "it was okay", and every now and then they ask if I even like movies at all?  

*I have a soft spot for 80ies action aesthetic. Mullets, shoulder pads and leather gear at least looks fun.

It's a racing genre in the loosest sense of the word. There are "cars" and there is a race, but other than that it has almost nothing to do with the racing genre. The FF comparison is fair I guess, but Redline is so much better in it's execution.

As @Malcador said it's mindless fun, I would add that it's absurd in a great sort of way. But I would say if you don't like the animation style then skip it as it's a big part of it.

Btw, this movie tanked Takeshi Koike's career. He went so over budget and the deadline that no one is willing to trust him with a project anymore.

39 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

Hey, I wasn't going to name names, . I know this sort of stuff certainly has its audience, but this is majestic we're talking about here - the guy that almost exclusively watches shoujo, hates all things toxic masculine, and pretty much never cares for mindless action? It would genuinely be pretty shocking if he enjoyed Redline or anything like it.

One of these days I will suggest something that you guys will like.

[Gorth]

Where is Borderlands 2 the Anime???

[majestic]

7 minutes ago, Sarex said:

One of these days I will suggest something that you guys will like.

Hey, I really liked Girls' Last Tour. That was absolutely fantastic, even though I couldn't tell you why exactly.  

7 minutes ago, Sarex said:

Btw, this movie tanked Takeshi Koike's career.

His best work was as animator anyway. *cough*

Edited April 11, 2022 by majestic

[Sarex]

5 minutes ago, majestic said:

Hey, I really liked Girls' Last Tour. That was absolutely fantastic, even though I couldn't tell you why exactly.  

For me it had a very comfy vibe which was in total opposition to the setting and the story. Kind of like mixing sweet and salty.

10 minutes ago, majestic said:

His best work was as animator anyway. *cough*

And Evangelion is the best anime ever.

[Amentep]

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