Trying to make a ravager build work

[Tomucci]

So I made a forbidden fist/berserker, was going pretty good until I got to level 10 or so, and realised the con bonus from wheel doesn't stack with the con bonus from frenzy.

I had maxed dex, per, res and kept everything else around 10, the stats I maxed are obvious, might was kept low because of the raw self dmg from both classes, int low for forbidden fist, con low because I figured I was getting it to 25 anyway.

If iron wheel and frenzy overlap then I have to go with the other one that boosts int, but that's sketchy now because I have relatively low con and I'll be doing a lot more self harm.

So my idea is to instead max con, per, res and leave the other stats at 10. Con is raised to compensate for the fact that the increased int will cause more self harm, but I kinda feel like there might be a synergy there with how barbs get bonuses when they're lower health, and the larger health pool will also help me control it.

I realise nalpazca is probably the better subclass here but I'm not interested in it. I also think helwalker would have the same problem with stats overlapping, and high might increasing self dmg from frenzy and also increasing my damage taken sounds way too squishy. So the only other subclass I'd really want to consider is shattered pillar but I feel like forbidden fist is better.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

[thelee]

since you ruled out some other monk subclasses, my suggestion is maybe the con overlap isn't a big deal.

iron wheel should still give you an AR bonus, regardless of con stacking, which is extremely handy. 

you can think of the con overlap this way:

• at low wounds, frenzy gives you a baseline con bonus
• at high wounds, you still get a net gain over frenzy via iron wheel (up to +5)
• in situations where there are CON afflictions going around, iron wheel keeps granting you con bonuses, even though frenzy will keep losing its CON inspiration

so while it doesn't sound synergistic, it's also not really an anti-synergy either.

 

that being said:

1 hour ago, Tomucci said:

I also think helwalker would have the same problem with stats overlapping

the might bonus from the helwalker subclass is passive, so will stack with frenzy. you can easily max out might to 35 with helwalker + barb.

the duality modal is weird because it really feels like a passive ability, but it's on the left side of the ability tree, so it doesn't stack with similar bonuses. same thing happens with paladin auras and fighter stances.

Edited January 27, 2022 by thelee

[NotDumbEnough]

I don't think FF was a good subclass choice in the first place -- Barbarians want high intellect as constantly recasting Frenzy feels bad and blows through your resources quite quickly.

On the other hand Monk/Barbarian multiclass isn't that good either, since there are lots of overlapping self-buffs, as both Monks and Barbarians have inbuilt +action speed, might inspiration, +constitution, etc.

If you really just want to punch stuff with a barbarian I'd recommend you multiclass with a Devoted instead and take Monastic Unarmed Training.

Edited January 27, 2022 by NotDumbEnough

[Not So Clever Hound]

1 hour ago, NotDumbEnough said:

If you really just want to punch stuff with a barbarian I'd recommend you multiclass with a Devoted instead and take Monastic Unarmed Training.

Devoted/Barb Fist-fighter can be extremely durable and consistently cobble together easily +3PL to get post-Mythic fists. +1 Tactical Barrage, +1 Nature Godlike, +1 Food.

[Boeroer]

2 hours ago, thelee said:

iron wheel should still give you an AR bonus, regardless of con stacking, which is extremely handy. 

I actually never played FF/Berserker - but I would assume that the bonus AR of Berserker Frenzy (Hardy) won't stack with Iron Wheel's. Both are active.

FF/Berserker  is an odd choice because of the two sources of self damage and because Berserker's self damage doesn't even generate you wounds (like it would with vanilla, Nalpasca or Helwalker).

1 hour ago, NotDumbEnough said:

On the other hand Monk/Barbarian multiclass isn't that good either, since there are lots of overlapping self-buffs, as both Monks and Barbarians have inbuilt +action speed, might inspiration, +constitution, etc.

Monk/Berserker can be a great combo because you gain lots of wounds from Frenzy, the crit conversion of the Berserker (+Bloody Slaughter) leads to more frequent Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming procs which in turn procs Blood Thirst more often. A little overlapping speed bonus doesn't really hurt (at least you get the +5 DEX on top of Frenzy which leads to more speed, too) and you don't need to pick Thunderous Blows (which is one ability point spared). Once you get Instruments of Pain you can even use Enduring Dance of Death and stay out of the fray which is helpful for not dying all the time. I played a Helwalker/Berserker and of course he died frequently if I didn't pay close attention - but he also had a tremendous damage output. Also Rooting Pain is pretty great with such an abundance of wound generation, combined with Interrupting Blows.

Edited January 27, 2022 by Boeroer

[thelee]

22 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

I actually never played FF/Berserker - but I would assume that the bonus AR of Berserker Frenzy (Hardy) won't stack with Iron Wheel's. Both are active.

yeah i completely forgot that OP was a berserker.

 

in that case, you're mostly just getting baseline CON from frenzy with possibility of upside.

[NotDumbEnough]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Monk/Berserker can be a great combo because you gain lots of wounds from Frenzy, the crit conversion of the Berserker (+Bloody Slaughter) leads to more frequent Swift Flurry/Heartbeat Drumming procs which in turn procs Blood Thirst more often. A little overlapping speed bonus doesn't really hurt (at least you get the +5 DEX on top of Frenzy which leads to more speed, too) and you don't need to pick Thunderous Blows (which is one ability point spared). Once you get Instruments of Pain you can even use Enduring Dance of Death and stay out of the fray which is helpful for not dying all the time. I played a Helwalker/Berserker and of course he died frequently if I didn't pay close attention - but he also had a tremendous damage output. Also Rooting Pain is pretty great with such an abundance of wound generation, combined with Interrupting Blows.

The main question is why you wouldn't just go Monk/Devoted instead. You then get +2 pen that stacks with food/Tenacious, you get hit to crit as well, and high intellect from Turning Wheel + Unbending is degenerate. What a Berserker has to offer just overlaps with the Monk's kit too much. The main difference is the lack of self damage, but I don't count that as a huge downside for going Devoted.

[Tomucci]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

I played a Helwalker/Berserker and of course he died frequently if I didn't pay close attention - but he also had a tremendous damage output. Also Rooting Pain is pretty great with such an abundance of wound generation, combined with Interrupting Blows

Did you play this with high con or just micro positioning a lot? Would helwalker be your suggested ravager monk subclass?

5 hours ago, thelee said:

the might bonus from the helwalker subclass is passive, so will stack with frenzy. you can easily max out might to 35 with helwalker + barb.

Sounds interesting, might check it out, but I'm still worried the build will be too squishy taking all that extra dmg

 

5 hours ago, thelee said:

iron wheel should still give you an AR bonus, regardless of con stacking, which is extremely handy. 

you can think of the con overlap this way:

• at low wounds, frenzy gives you a baseline con bonus
• at high wounds, you still get a net gain over frenzy via iron wheel (up to +5)
• in situations where there are CON afflictions going around, iron wheel keeps granting you con bonuses, even though frenzy will keep losing its CON inspiration

I guess so but I think it bugs me not only because of the overlap but also because I'd banked on being able to have high con to mitigate all the self harm, might try rerolling with 15 con. Will the int bonus from the other modal hurt the forbidden fist that much that I shouldn't consider it? Or maybe switching between the two might be viable so I can use the int bonus to extend flurry and frenzy durations then default back to iron wheel?

What I've been doing is activating flurry and frenzy, using forbidden fist once then using clarity of agony which has a neutral cost while I have one stack of forbidden fist and confusion then using a combination of forbidden fist and auto attacks to steadily increase wounds until frenzy runs out then rinse/repeat.

4 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

On the other hand Monk/Barbarian multiclass isn't that good , since there are lots of overlapping self-buffs, as both Monks and Barbarians have inbuilt +action speed, might inspiration, +constitution, etc.

I've been liking it so far, the hit to crit from frenzy with monk free attacks on crit, variety of bonuses between frenzy and monk buffs, using clarity of agony to clear confusion, the sheer dmg between barb actives/passives and monk fists, debuffs from barb being extended by FF enfeeblement

4 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

I don't think FF was a good subclass choice in the first place -- Barbarians want high intellect as constantly recasting Frenzy feels bad and blows through your resources quite quickly.

I've had my dex up around 25 so the cast times haven't felt too bad tbh, and I've been liking the forbidden fist enfeeblement for extending the barb effects like staggered ect

 

4 hours ago, NotDumbEnough said:

If you really just want to punch stuff with a barbarian I'd recommend you multiclass with a Devoted instead and take Monastic Unarmed Training.

Didn't think you could actually get decent fist dmg outside of playing a monk, sounds cool but I'd prefer to stick with monk if I'm using fists

 

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

FF/Berserker  is an odd choice because of the two sources of self damage and because Berserker's self damage doesn't even generate you wounds (like it would with vanilla, Nalpasca or Helwalker).

This might be my problem tbh, FF is my fav monk subclass but it might not really fit here, I've been liking that I can use forbidden fist ability once then use clarity of agony to clear confusion with a neutral cost but building wounds from there is kinda slow

 

Thanks to everyone for responding, and apologies for the format here, its a bit all over the place

[Boeroer]

On 1/27/2022 at 11:00 PM, Tomucci said:

Did you play this with high con or just micro positioning a lot? Would helwalker be your suggested ravager monk subclass?

I actually had 3 CON. But I had a potent healer in the party.  And I used Amulet of Greater Health and Tough as well as a lot of regeneration gear, damage reduction and Voidward (helps with self damage).

I would say Nalpasca is the best monk subclass for this. The self damage of Berserker gets an extra boost from the Helwalker passive - and while that leads to fantastic wound generation it can be too much to handle to be fun at higher levels.
Also because you can't actually see your remaining health but have to use tricks to guess where it's roughly at. This can become a tedium and not worth the added offensive output. It might be necessary when wielding Amra though (needs 25 MIG to be good).
 
Nalpasca wounds from drugs + Berserker self dmg + Enduring Dance is incredible wound income without the need to get hit by enemies - and also being able to stay away a bit (which means less danger of catching an Arcane Dampener which will end the drug benefits, which sucks). At first you can use a reach weapon and later use Instruments of Pain with whatever melee weapon.
If you get attacked in melee a combination of 1 wound/6 sec (drugs) and 2+ wounds every 3 secs (self dmg + Enduring Dance) in tandem with Rooting Pain can be a cool "oh ****"-button if you also pick Blade Turning. 

Stalwart Defiance is also good - but I would still suggest you also bring a strong healer or a Priest with Barring Death's Door.  
 

On 1/27/2022 at 10:42 PM, NotDumbEnough said:

The main question is why you wouldn't just go Monk/Devoted instead. 

Fun I guess. Barbarian offers a lot higher dps since the attack speed is higher, there's more potential crit conversion (as Berserker I mean) and a lot higher dmg bonuses.
If you'd want a sturdier combo then of course Fighter is the better choice.
But I was mostly adressing your statement that "Monk/Barbarian multiclass isn't that good" - which is not correct imo. Just because there's a bit of overlap doesn't mean something isn't good.
Besides there is no overlap that's unavoidable. And even if you end up picking something like Swift Strikes AND Frenzy: Swift Strikes still gets the +5 DEX which stacks with Frenzy's action speed bonus so it's not entirely wasted. And you're picking it up for either Lighting Strike lashes or Swift Flurry procs anyway, not primarily for the 15% action speed in this case. 
I already mentioned self dmg + Monk has great potential synergy since you don't actually need to get hit to produce wounds anymore - and also the use of Rooting Pain in combination with that mechanic. Other good synergies are Enervating Blows + Spirit Frenzy + Brute Force (and a Morning Star perhaps) which makes crits even more likely against a lot of enemies which don't have 20 (or even 45 with a Morning Star) points fortitude over deflection. All non-Berserker Barbs do profit from Thunderous Blows even if it "only" upgrades Strong to Tenacious, and Berseker/Monks don't need to pick it. 

And the interaction between Swift Flurry/HBD, Blood Thirst, Enervating Blows, Spirit Frenzy and Brute Force with Bloody Slaughter and Barbaric Smash as finisher is just so much fun against mobs. Check out Sun & Moon in the main hand + Scordeo's Edge in the offhand with Barbaric Smash... can't do that with Devoted bc. two different weapon types *insert sad face Devoted panda*

Anyways: it may depend on what aspect you exactly mean when saying it's not that good. It's not that good at staying alive (and that can be a disadvantage of course). But it's very good at being an enjoyable damage combo. Some avoidable or insignificant redundancy in ability effects don't change that imo.    

Edited January 29, 2022 by Boeroer

[Porkchopsandwiches247]

If you roll as a Shattered Pillar, you shouldnt run into that Con stacking problem. It caps at 5 I think anyway, right? Although you then have to deal with some limitation in your abilities.

If youre open to trying out different class combinations with a similar theme, a Fanatic has some pretty solid synergies. A Brawler (Fighter+Barb devoted) is even better, because they naturally have a built-in counter to confused along with passive self-heal if youre locked in with a Berserker.

[Boeroer]

3 hours ago, Porkchopsandwiches247 said:

If you roll as a Shattered Pillar, you shouldnt run into that Con stacking problem. It caps at 5 I think anyway, right? Although you then have to deal with some limitation in your abilities.

What do you mean with not running into the CON stacking problem?

 

[Porkchopsandwiches247]

5 minutes ago, Boeroer said:

What do you mean with not running into the CON stacking problem?

 

Honestly I just screwed up and for some reason my brain thought two +5s to con would stack but not +5 and +10 lol