How much do you value the different Class ressources ?

[NotDumbEnough]

9 hours ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

I've been thinking about this post more and I think that to be able to truly compare the value of non-renewable martial/caster resources vs. renewable ressources classes, you should factor in some kind of cost per second scale because the supply and demand isn't always the same. Where it gets dicey is that value is dynamic for non-renewables (it goes up the more the fight goes on) while it is more or less stable for renewables with a steady flow of resources.

 

Let me take an example: in a party, we have a Trickster/Devoted and a Helwalker/Troubadour (2 popular classes):

 

Let's consider a short encounter lasting 20s:

• Our Swashbuckler will have 9 Guile and 9 Discipline available at start. Our Cantor will have 6 Phrases at start, build up about 6 Phrases over the course of the encounter, have 9 Mortifications at start, 5 Wounds, and build another 6+ Wounds depending on what they does (dance of death, MotS, getting hit...).
• The Swashbuckler can decide to spend all their resources however they want right from the beginning, and this is important as many fights are front-loaded and you want to turn the tide in your favor quickly before the enemy does - by having the flexibility to use high-impact abilities at the right moment.
• The Cantor will have a starting pool and build up resources over time so they will have less flexibility on when and how they can spend their resources, which might result in wasted time and/or resources. However, they also Chant from start to finish on top of "doing stuff", and each Wound they possess gives them a buff.

=> All in all, they seem relatively on an equal footing in terms of resources value vs. cost.

 

Now let's consider a 60s fight:

• The Swashbuckler will have the same 9/9 pool so they will have to be a lot more considerate in how they spend resources, probably use them more sparingly on truly critical abilities i.e. each resource's value will comparatively go up.
• The Cantor will have the same starting pool as before, the same Chanting lasting the entire fight and they can steadily generate about 20 Phrases and 20+ Wounds, going on with their routine and adapting their spending as the fight goes on. Overall they won't have to use more or less sparingly their resources, just arbitrate on what is the most effective usage.

=> The more a fight goes on, the higher the value per resource goes up for the Swashbuckler and the value is stable for the Cantor.

 

Of course trying to figure out the conversion rates between resources for each fight duration would be insanely complicated. But it poses the question of: on what average fight duration/difficulty should the game be based on for balancing out resource value between classes? I feel like this was balanced based on short/easy fights, while the harder/longer fights that truly matter give a clear edge to renewable resource classes.

It should be noted that Tactician, Blood Mage and Cipher are a bit more complex cases in terms of resource value linearity, Cipher being the most complex/interesting case:  because of Scion vs. Soulblade vs. Ascendant vs. Beguiler each have an interesting quirk and because of Ancestor's Memory. In particular Ascendant might have a weird U-shaped value curve with multiple U's over the course of a long fight. But overall I think Cipher is more balanced and closest to non-renewable classes in terms of average value/cost of abilities. Monks and Chanters got a really, really sweet deal on fights that truly matter, especially when you start factoring in special equipment (Sasha's, Weyc stuff, Least Unstable Coil, Blightheart / Ajamuut, Hylea's talons, Mortars...).

It needs to be kept in mind that in an extended fight that the Swashbuckler hits considerably harder and therefore remains useful even with no resources whatsoever, as Sneak Attack/Deathblows/Devoted +2 pen etc. are all very significant increases to damage. Rogues have extremely powerful passive abilities, and Fighters have very cheap Intuitive inspirations. The Cantor, on the other hand, would be complete garbage if they didn't have renewable resources.

[Not So Clever Hound]

4 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

The Cantor, on the other hand, would be complete garbage if they didn't have renewable resources

I wouldn't call passive Chanting + Helwalker passive abilities complete garbage...   but yeah definitely not on same level as Persistent Distraction/Sneak/Deathblow etc.

That said, my point is about the value of resources and I'm just saying that non renewable resources become more and more a hot commodity as the fight duration increases, which is why it is hard to just say 1 guile = x wounds once and for all. It depends on the length/difficulty of encounter. Exactly as you point out, Fighter has cheap Intuitive and they're more likely to focus on keeping uptime on this kind of universally useful ability vs. spamming more expensive stuff in a "sustained" fight - because their resource economy is a bit different then than in a "burst"/short fight. Our Cantor Friend can activate The Long Pain if he wants in the short or long fight, who cares. Same resource value either way.

[Elric Galad]

57 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

I wouldn't call passive Chanting + Helwalker passive abilities complete garbage...   but yeah definitely not on same level as Persistent Distraction/Sneak/Deathblow etc.

That said, my point is about the value of resources and I'm just saying that non renewable resources become more and more a hot commodity as the fight duration increases, which is why it is hard to just say 1 guile = x wounds once and for all. It depends on the length/difficulty of encounter. Exactly as you point out, Fighter has cheap Intuitive and they're more likely to focus on keeping uptime on this kind of universally useful ability vs. spamming more expensive stuff in a "sustained" fight - because their resource economy is a bit different then than in a "burst"/short fight. Our Cantor Friend can activate The Long Pain if he wants in the short or long fight, who cares. Same resource value either way.

The thread tackles a complicated topic because we are basically comparing potatoes and kangaroos.

My own problem is that I try to balance abilities between classes and I need to understand how powerful an ability that costs 3 wounds should be. Should it be as strong as a 1 discipline ? 2 disciplines ? etc... outside of this question, it is not very useful to compare them because of very different system indeed.

The true question is more : how strong an ability costing X potatoes or Y kangaroos should be so you are unsatisfied/satisfied/feel it is a bit broken for its cost.

And to give a number to the "how strong", I use the "martial ressource" currency. (Which may be flawed because high-cost martial abilities are often over-costed  ...). So :

An ability costing X potatoes should be as strong as a martial ability costing n ressources.
An ability costing Y kangaroos should be as strong as a martial ability costing m ressources.

 

By the way kangaroo meat is delicious with potatoes (and kangaroos release less CO2).

Edited January 5, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Not So Clever Hound]

14 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

The thread tackles a complicated topic because we are basically comparing potatoes and kangaroos.

I get you totally, Elric. In my limited mind it's just basically impossible to create number-based equivalences but I do agree with statements like "WotW feels too cheap compared to high-cost Fighter/Paladin/Rogue stuff and it wouldn't kill anyone if it cost a little more". Or "Barb Tier 9 Shouts are sooo cheap but it's ok because other than that and Frenzy Barbs drew the short straw".

17 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

By the way kangaroo meat is delicious with potatoes (and kangaroos release less CO2).

Well Elric, you can't say that. It's just too simplistic: it depends on the cooking, the seasoning, the wine pairing... it's much more nuanced! (OK I stop ).

[Elric Galad]

8 minutes ago, Not So Clever Hound said:

Well Elric, you can't say that. It's just too simplistic: it depends on the cooking, the seasoning, the wine pairing... it's much more nuanced! (OK I stop ).

Please share your MC Kangaroos / potatoes build

[Not So Clever Hound]

12 minutes ago, Elric Galad said:

Please share your MC Kangaroos / potatoes build

Well to be very literal I’m thinking Barbarian (because leap) and someone that deals in plants and other tubercules. So probably a Mage Slayer / Ancient. Sounds like a winning combination. 

Edited January 5, 2022 by Not So Clever Hound

[thelee]

2 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

My own problem is that I try to balance abilities between classes and I need to understand how powerful an ability that costs 3 wounds should be. Should it be as strong as a 1 discipline ? 2 disciplines ? etc... outside of this question, it is not very useful to compare them because of very different system indeed.

so i guess this gives me a better hook into your line of thinking.

if it were me, i think i'd focus less on direct equivalences with abilities as they are costed now, and go with my "intuitive" sense of 1-common [and basically very few abilities past tier 3 should be a 1 just on a power-level sense], 2-powerful, 3-encounterchanging. for me this gives an immediate sense of what abilities are too expensive or too weak without resorting to cross-class equivalencies.

the only pickle is with phrases, wounds, and focus, because they're unique. i honestly have no idea. with wounds you could probably actually try to quantify it based on dance with death, which gives you 1/wound per 3s with a major caveat to work around, so you could frame it as "how often should a vanilla monk be able to do X ability if you're optimized for it" which is still extremely intuitive, but that's what i got. focus a similar logic but based on expected damage output at various points in the game with vanilla weapons (hypothetically scaling similarly to in-game summoned weapons). phrases no idea, i just have an intuitive sense that some invocations are way too expensive for the benefit (like that high-tier dazing shout).*

 

* complete side note, i thought the invocation "his heart did fill with the light of dawn" (+1 class resource in an area) was hopelessly overcosted for its effect, but it wasn't until a recent run where i realized what this really means is that your tier 9 casters can cast 2x (or 3x with empower point) their game-ending tier 9 spells at the start of a fight. in practice it's almost certainly an ability that's only ever meant to be used once, and not in the middle of a fight, so in that sense there's actually no fair cost for it because you automatically have enough phrases to use it instantly.

[Elric Galad]

On 1/5/2022 at 8:26 PM, thelee said:

so i guess this gives me a better hook into your line of thinking.

if it were me, i think i'd focus less on direct equivalences with abilities as they are costed now, and go with my "intuitive" sense of 1-common [and basically very few abilities past tier 3 should be a 1 just on a power-level sense], 2-powerful, 3-encounterchanging. for me this gives an immediate sense of what abilities are too expensive or too weak without resorting to cross-class equivalencies.

the only pickle is with phrases, wounds, and focus, because they're unique. i honestly have no idea. with wounds you could probably actually try to quantify it based on dance with death, which gives you 1/wound per 3s with a major caveat to work around, so you could frame it as "how often should a vanilla monk be able to do X ability if you're optimized for it" which is still extremely intuitive, but that's what i got. focus a similar logic but based on expected damage output at various points in the game with vanilla weapons (hypothetically scaling similarly to in-game summoned weapons). phrases no idea, i just have an intuitive sense that some invocations are way too expensive for the benefit (like that high-tier dazing shout).*

My main question at the moment is how would you value a powerful or encounterchanging wound-based ability.

I get the intuition that a powerful wound-based ability could cost up to 6 wounds and an encounterchanging up to 9 wounds. It requires CP removal of Shattered Pillar wound limit though.

The twins are undervalued in my book. They are a powerful ability and could cost 6 wounds. Double summons are rare (out of chanters) even if the twins have a relatively short duration.

Resonant Touch is basically a better version of Avenging Storm. 7 wounds wouldn't be too much.

WotW is equivalent (and even arguably better) to Heart of Fury (which BPM sets to 3 Rages) and Whirling Strikes. 9 wounds would fit (and it could still be nerfed a bit).

[thelee]

7 hours ago, Elric Galad said:

It requires CP removal of Shattered Pillar wound limit though.

tbf the shattered pillar wound limit is not a great design imo, if we're talking about balance changes. while there's something to be said about being able to generate wounds without drugs or getting hurt, as a whole package just from being unable to max out the +intellect/lash or +con/ar is a huge penalty to the class.

[Elric Galad]

13 hours ago, thelee said:

tbf the shattered pillar wound limit is not a great design imo, if we're talking about balance changes. while there's something to be said about being able to generate wounds without drugs or getting hurt, as a whole package just from being unable to max out the +intellect/lash or +con/ar is a huge penalty to the class.

I don't know. It is a big drawback, but it could have been cool for a "wound spender" subclass. Accumulate less, get wound easy, spend more, would have feel more as a martial artist and less of a general self-buffer. Even with this limit, the subclass used to be broken OP. The current version just don't get wound that easily. Anyway CP changed the limit, and I feel some abilities just need to cost more than 5 rounds.

Edited January 12, 2022 by Elric Galad

[Boeroer]

Shattered Pillar was nerfed twice: first the wound limit was set to 5. But that didn't do much because you could still use stuff like Torment's Reach to generate more wounds than it costs.

So that nerf wouldn't stop the non-stop spammage of ability-driven attacks which was balance-wrecking. So they decided to only let auto-attacks generate wounds. This did the trick - but they forgot to raise the max wound counter up again. Or they thought both together were a balanced nerf (which it is not but I guess that only becomes obvious once you put some hours into playing it). 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Boeroer