Something you didn't ask for: how Deadfire holds up vs the newer stuff (Wrath of the Righteous)

[thelee]

I've been taking a break from Deadfire (1700 hours, man) to give Wrath of the Righteous a shot, and here are some thoughts. I know some people here are genre RTwP fans, and options these days are pretty limited, so I thought I'd share some opinions because a desire for another RTwP is what really drove me to give WoTR a try.

Background: I pretty much disliked Pathfinder: Kingmaker quite a bit. Terrible encounter design, I could not get over how terrible the writing was. It did get me into Pathfinder Second Edition though, so there's that. (Though learning up on the 2nd ed ruleset made me dislike Kingmaker's 1st ruleset even more. [WotR is still 1st ed pathfinder rules])

 

On the game itself: I actually enjoy WoTR, definitely much more than PK. Part of it is better story focus - the stakes are much clearer from the beginning. Encounter design is better; there are still those stupid "come back later" encounters, but it's not as bad as in PK, they're broadcast a bit more (less likely to just stumble into them without warning) and so far there's no loot behind it (so really they're just for the challenge); they really just seem like minor megabosses scattered throughout. Difficulty balancing is better - I play on "Core" which is comparable to somewhere between Veteran and PotD (generally acceptable difficulty and occasional hard fights), and it's better than P:K where Core was too damn easy but the next step up gave enemies so many bonuses (sometimes double-counted) that it basically eliminated most build viability and made many fights an all-or-nothing "everyone got initiative and sneak attacked the enemy" or "a wolf tripped your flat-footed tank and everything snow-balled out of control" binary. There's still those harder difficulties, but I feel like they got a better middle ground this time. YMMV on this one, obviously.

 

Anyway, things that Deadfire/Obsidian did well and has aged well:

• art/area design. it's funny that we got a complaint about reused assets in another thread, because WotR is a whole heck of a lot of tile re-use. Areas look really same-y and it can be hard to geographically center yourself without constant reference to a map.
• the nuts and bolts of RTwP interfaces. Translucent spell effects when paused, constantly visible targeting circles and selection circles and health/engagement indicators, compacted combat log entries (where related entries or AoE spells get grouped into one expandable entry), adjustable speed, holy crap all amazing quality of life things that are missing form WotR which is several years newer. Even though I hate on the Deadfire combat tooltip becoming vertical walls in later fights, it's aces better than what  WotR does (at least it's no longer hidden behind a Knowledge check like in P:K).
• AI scripting and smarter default AI behavior and scripts. WotR pretty much just only lets you automate one single ability at a time and your character will do it nonstop without pause. Pretty much only good for cantrips or other infinite-use abilities.
• Writing. I'm playing WoTR in german so it's a bit hard to assess (I'm at best B1-grade proficiency, plus it's a translation) but it feels a bit better than P:K but damn some of the character development is still just dumb and two-dimensional. having a fixed D&D-style alignment doesn't really help, but it's also not handled well where you get comically binary dialogue choices just so you can fulfill a "good" option or an "evil" option.
• better leveling/multiclassing system. i mean, 3/3.5e-style multiclassing is a travesty, so not going to spend much time here.
• rule clarity. yeah Deadfire is dense, but auto-generated tooltips and hover menus are plentiful and viability is still generally ubiquitous. Even with better tutorials of basic concepts in WotR, you're just tossed head first into the pathfinder system, which is full of jargon and build traps (e.g. heavy armor is not a good long-term strategy for defense). Plus, while there are hover menus, it's not expansive - I have to constantly reference other sites or the pathfinder rules to remember what particular afflictions do.
  • the only saving grace is that there's a larger pathfinder community so there's tons of threads explaining rules or why certain builds are terrible ideas

Things that Obsidian should learn from WotR in any future RTwP endeavour:

• Getting the story stakes right. I'm not one of the people who have complained a lot about Deadfire's story, but WotR really communicates the big stakes to you very clearly from the start and constantly updates you with it, and it does really draw you in much better than the kind of distant concerns over Eothas and the various Deadfire factions. It does this (at least so far) without even the heavy-handed timer countdowns of P:K! This is a vast improvement over P:K. I had a similar criticism of BG vs BG2; BG2 tossed you in the middle of a suspenseful dungeon break after being captured by a mysterious (and charismatically voice-acted) Irenicus, whereas BG you were wandering around some open meadows and just given slight suggestions of "hey maybe you should go south to Nashkel at some point."
• Turn-based really seems like table-stakes for a RTwP game now, and it shouldn't be a separate option you only have one chance to choose. You can swap in/out of turn-based mode with the press of a button in WotR. Especially since WotR implements 5-foot-steps in turn-based mode, and because of some of the sprawling fights, it's nice to have that option at hand, even if I generally don't use them.
  • "Going first matters" - I get that turn-based in Deadfire was kind of added on, but Owlcat has done the "initiative" concept the best in any RTwP I've played; I'm glad they designed RTwP with this primarily-turn-based concept in mind, even ignoring how broken sneak attack can be in P:K (less so in WotR i think).
• Ridable animal companions!!!!
  • Seriously, I never realized how much I needed this feature in a game until playing WotR.
• Great implementation of rest mechanics. WotR is a rest-based game (not encounter-based), but even ignoring that, resting is the downtime for your characters to craft scrolls/potions, cure ability damage (much more common vs P:K), but at the same time areas become gradually cursed the longer you rest in them from the demon invasion, which adds buffs to your enemies as you cross thresholds; a high religion ability from someone assigned this job at rest can slow the curse down, but not stop it from advancing.
  • If Deadfire had things gentler than Wounds as well that don't require knock out (like ability damage or long-term diseases), there'd be more of an incentive to rest. At the same time, rest-spamming to refresh empower points or per-rest item abilities would be more constrained if the concern wasn't simply "you'll run out of shark fish soup."
  • I'm actually one of those weirdos who enjoyed the optional constraint in PoE1 where you can only access your stash upon rest.
• Feeling "epic." Yeah, I tend be a very strong Balance Guy, and WotR is a little bit on the overkill side with the mythic paths, but it definitely helps with the story stakes and sense of progression. If the watcher abilities had been a lot more notable, that could really have helped. I'm not going to gloss over the fact that a lot of players liked BG2's Throne of Bhaal for similar reasons, even though I personally hated its mechanics.
  • A better rest mechanic and resource constraints would make it easier to make e.g. more powerful/epic-feeling watcher abilities without messing up the balance.
• really sprawling battles. sometimes set-pieces, sometimes an encounter that merges with another, I just feel like these are set up better, whereas Deadfire everything tends to be isolated, and even the ship-to-ship fights happen within a small like 10m space.

 

That being said, if anyone's itching for a newer experience, or just wants another angle to appreciate Deadfire by, I do recommend giving WotR a try. It's no Disco Elysium, but it ain't shabby.

Edited December 2, 2021 by thelee

[Boeroer]

The writing in P:K was so bad that I stopped pretty quickly. I can't get over such things. The bonbon-ish graphics didn't help either. So I don't think I will give WotR a try. 

Not that the PoE games are perfect. I don't care about RTwP or Turn Based even. But pretty much every CRPG I tried after the PoE games left me disappointed. I guess I'm spoiled somehow...

8 hours ago, thelee said:

 1700 hours, man

cute

8 hours ago, thelee said:

Ridable animal companions!!!

Seriously, I never realized how much I needed this feature in a game until playing WotR.

Only Orlans please!

Yeah that would have been great. I also would have liked to see Xaurip Beastmasters riding Grubs (hello Dune) and Drakes and such. I mean look at Llengrath!

Druids have Charm Beasts. Ciphers charm/dominate everything... So there's explanation why it could be more common. 

---

Has not much to do with the main point of your post, but about the Watcher abilities: I think I would have preferred a separate (small?) Watcher "class tree" - similar to the other class trees where you could have spend points you gained during those main quest lines. And not make then all per-rest but also include some passives and per-encounter stuff. 

For example that conjuring of spirits in the docks when you reach Neketaka: why isn't that an ability you can use more often/at will? Bunch of spirits that follow you become visible and distract the enemies or whatever. Everything's there: the models, animations, sound effects and so on. That would have been plausible and cool I think.

As is: I never even use the Watcher abilities unless I'm in a situation most dire and I have nothing else left. And that's almost never the case.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Boeroer

[xzar_monty]

11 hours ago, thelee said:

• Writing. I'm playing WoTR in german so it's a bit hard to assess (I'm at best B1-grade proficiency, plus it's a translation) but it feels a bit better than P:K but damn some of the character development is still just dumb and two-dimensional. having a fixed D&D-style alignment doesn't really help, but it's also not handled well where you get comically binary dialogue choices just so you can fulfill a "good" option or an "evil" option.

The writing is awful, in approximately the way you describe. There is essentially no understanding of narrative, drama, subtlety or psychology in the writing, and to balance all of that, there's a huge amount of cheese. I totally agree: the writing is a bit better than P:K but it's still awful.

I only wanted to address this briefly, since you're playing in German. All in all, a good post, and I agree with quite a lot of it. I'm playing the game these days, and I do enjoy it, despite the writing -- but boy how I pine for a title that has all these mechanics AND good writing. That would be some game, wouldn't it?

In my view, Deadfire and Disco Elysium are head and shoulders above WotR, but WotR is quite nice, too.

[xzar_monty]

3 hours ago, Boeroer said:

The writing in P:K was so bad that I stopped pretty quickly. I can't get over such things.

Yeah, I can understand that. I can't get over turn-based in cRPGs, it's an instant no-no for me. Many of us have these preferences that are stronger than preferences.

But just out of curiosity: did you play Disco Elysium? I'm asking because there's some pretty fine writing there.

[Boeroer]

3 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

But just out of curiosity: did you play Disco Elysium? I'm asking because there's some pretty fine writing there.

Nope. It has no combat and so I assume not that many interesting mechanics. I like combat mechanics.
Also the setting isn't something that speaks to me. 

So... it isn't very high on my list of games I want to play despite all the praise.

I can enjoy games that have mediocre writing - or no writing at all (or very little - whatever). But if my toenails roll up while reading it's goodbye for me.  

Edited December 3, 2021 by Boeroer

[thelee]

9 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Yeah that would have been great. I also would have liked to see Xaurip Beastmasters riding Grubs (hello Dune) and Drakes and such. I mean look at Llengrath!

i think one of the best part of ridable animal companions in WotR is that it interacts with things like sizes and stuff like in PnP, it's not just a cosmetic buff.

So halfling, gnomes can start the game automatically being able to ride many kinds of animals, because they're small enough, whereas others will have to wait or are limited to a handful of bigger companions (e.g. horses) - which is a nice potential  counterbalance to the fact that small characters move slower by default (e.g. my base 20-foot speed halfling is a 60-foot speed halfling+racing elk). At the same time, the spells that increase or decrease target sizes can help or harm one's ability to ride mounted. It can also lead to some interesting spell interactions - grease is already a pretty effective spell, but getting knocked down while mounted is doubly bad, because not only are you proned, but you're completely knocked off your mount and you could be either in a worse defensive position (if you were relying on your mount for AC) or risk an attack of opportunity to re-mount. Of course then there are other interactions like charging, barding, possibly getting 2x-ed by aoe spells, etc.

I can easily see why even games based on rulesets that have ridable mounts might not implement them because of various headaches (not to mention UI issues that WotR doesn't quite solve), but kudos on WotR it adds a surprising amount of mechanical depth for having done so.

[xzar_monty]

2 hours ago, Boeroer said:

Nope. It has no combat and so I assume not that many interesting mechanics. I like combat mechanics.
Also the setting isn't something that speaks to me.

Yeah, fair enough. I'm mostly interested in story, so Disco Elysium was excellent for me. I'm not very much into combat mechanics, as engineering, for the lack of a better term, is not really something that interests me very much.

[bugarup]

On 12/3/2021 at 1:48 AM, thelee said:

 (1700 hours, man)

 

On 12/3/2021 at 10:12 AM, Boeroer said:

cute

And I thought my 700 hours was, like, a lot ...

Aaaaanyway. I parked my character before prestige class choice at the end of Chapter 2 with intention to wait for moar fixing because absolutely nothing in WOTR's story had that "Oooooh, cannot wait to see what happens next!" quality for me therefore no rush to play it asap. Truth be told I liked KM's story better, because as poorly written as WOTR, at least it was less cheesy than that pandemonium schlock. As for mounts, I tried all pets + summons party in KM, gave up on the umpteenth labyrinth and no way I'm adding any of those path blocking blighters to my party ever again. 

Still, one day I'm gonna finish it, so @thelee if you came up with a gamebreaking build or three (that preferably does not have a level in f--ing monk), it'd be delightful to steal see them here. 

Edited December 6, 2021 by bugarup
Sight failing, commas and periods look the same :(((